Interstate CDL License Bill Introduced In Senate

Left Coast said:

I never worked in fast food (I work at a clothing retailer for my first job), but I know several close friends and family who have. I don't know any of them who think they should make just as much now as they did then given the work they now do.

Click to expand...

That doesn't change that reality of fast food being hard amd demanding, and that's before you add in regularly being degraded and demeaned by customers.
"Entry level" is just an excuse to ignore the harsh working conditions amd physical and mental demands of these jobs amd pretend it's simple amd easy.

Left Coast said:

There are outliers, but the trend is that jobs that require more skill/experience and education are paid better than those that require less. And that's how it should be, IMO. Otherwise you're disincentivizing highly skilled work.

Click to expand...

I've talked with a bunch of people who could be doing something else (like being a teacher) but drive rideshare because it's more money for less stress, less responsibility, and less work.

Shadow Wolf said:

That doesn't change that reality of fast food being hard amd demanding, and that's before you add in regularly being degraded and demeaned by customers.
"Entry level" is just an excuse to ignore the harsh working conditions amd physical and mental demands of these jobs amd pretend it's simple amd easy.

Click to expand...

When I had a job making pizzas, I never
saw any customer demean us.

Revoltingest said:

When I had a job making pizzas, I never
saw any customer demean us.

Click to expand...

I've never made pizzas. I had a bag of food thrown at me at Arby's though. My ex came home soaked from someone's drink once. I got demeaned and degraded a lot at the gas station, but had some awesome regulars (including a biker gang guy) who would speak up for us and say what we couldn't. Amd them there's the various harassments I've seen coworkers endure.

Shadow Wolf said:

I've never made pizzas. I had a bag of food thrown at me at Arby's though. My ex came home soaked from someone's drink once. I got demeaned and degraded a lot at the gas station, but had some awesome regulars (including a biker gang guy) who would speak up for us and say what we couldn't. Amd them there's the various harassments I've seen coworkers endure.

Click to expand...

I must lead a charmed life.
Prolly cuz I'm so loveable.

Shadow Wolf said:

That doesn't change that reality of fast food being hard amd demanding, and that's before you add in regularly being degraded and demeaned by customers.
"Entry level" is just an excuse to ignore the harsh working conditions amd physical and mental demands of these jobs amd pretend it's simple amd easy.

Click to expand...

I don't think I said the job was just a walk in the park. What I said is that the job requires low skill and expertise. Which it does. That is why it's a job primarily done by young people as a first or early job in their career before they have much experience or education.

I also said they shouldn't be paid as much as a doctor. Which they shouldn't.

Those feel like pretty reasonable positions.

Left Coast said:

I don't think I said the job was just a walk in the park. What I said is that the job requires low skill and expertise. Which it does. That is why it's a job primarily done by young people as a first or early job in their career before they have much experience or education.

I also said they shouldn't be paid as much as a doctor. Which they shouldn't.

Those feel like pretty reasonable positions.

Click to expand...

It's not a doctor or lawyer, but it takes more skill and is harder than many factory and warehouse jobs. But those usually pay more.

Left Coast said:

Why not? Capitalist societies have should/ought discussions on economic questions all the time.

Click to expand...

Why is it a question of morality how much an employee earns? Why should that be an object of public policy, when the profits of businesses and their practice of wage depression by any means very evidently are not?

But beyond that, I was asking what you thought a fair wage would be in your world. You seem reticent to put a number on it, despite being apparently of the view that $70K is too low.

Click to expand...

Why are you so hung up on that 70k number anyway? What does it signify to you that, say, 71k or 96k wouldn't?
How did you arrive at that number, and where did you draw your data from?

To me, this all sounds completely arbirtrary and, if you forgive me, rather nonsensical.

This is a very black/white understanding of the situation.

Click to expand...

An alternative interpretation would be that you don't like the way I framed the issue, but have no argument to counter it.

There is a reasonable range within which negotiations about wages and working conditions occur.

Click to expand...

And what's "reasonable" is of course being determined by the needs and interests of the capitalist class.
After all, it would be terrible if employees become too well paid, they might get ideas above their proper station.

Left Coast said:

I don't look down on people who have low skilled jobs at all. I simply recognize that realistically it makes sense that we reimburse people whose jobs require greater skill at higher rates than people whose jobs require less skill. Most people in low paying jobs are in jobs whose jobs require less skill, in broad strokes. If you think brain surgery requires the same skill and has the same value as an entry level fast food job...I really don't know what else to say? That's just not the case.

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree, more skilled fast food cooks certainly should be able to earn more than less skilled ones.

And just so you know, I don't care for the way you look down and denigrate the work of people of low social and economic status,and will ignore them from here on out.

Kooky said:

Yes, I agree, more skilled fast food cooks certainly should be able to earn more than less skilled ones.

And just so you know, I don't care for the way you look down and denigrate the work of people of low social and economic status,and will ignore them from here on out.

Click to expand...

Some might think that you misinterpret their
posts in order to look down upon them.

Shadow Wolf said:

It's not a doctor or lawyer, but it takes more skill and is harder than many factory and warehouse jobs. But those usually pay more.

Click to expand...

In my experience, your pay immediately jumps whenever you put on a suit, regardless of how difficult the actual work involved is.

Kooky said:

Why is it a question of morality how much an employee earns? Why should that be an object of public policy, when the profits of businesses and their practice of wage depression by any means very evidently are not?

Click to expand...

Business practices and ethics, including how much employees are paid and how much profit companies make, have been discussions happening in capitalistic societies for a very long time. Markets are regulated.

Why are you so hung up on that 70k number anyway? What does it signify to you that, say, 71k or 96k wouldn't?
How did you arrive at that number, and where did you draw your data from?

Click to expand...

Go back and read your very first reply to me in this thread. I posed a question to those who think $70K is too low a wage for an average trucker. You replied to it. So if anything, it's you who has an issue with it. So the question is, why? How much should an average trucker salary be in the US? "As much as possible" is a non-response.

An alternative interpretation would be that you don't like the way I framed the issue, but have no argument to counter it.

Click to expand...

That would be an interpretation that ignores the content of the entire actual conversation we've been having, but sure.

And what's "reasonable" is of course being determined by the needs and interests of the capitalist class.

Click to expand...

No, what's reasonable is determined by supply and demand, within a negotiated range. We went over this already. You cannot reasonably pay an entry level worker at McDonald's $1 million/hour. Any fast food franchise who did so would quickly go out of business.

After all, it would be terrible if employees become too well paid, they might get ideas above their proper station.

Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with people's "proper station." Most entry level employees will not stay in those roles making that amount of money. They will get better paying jobs as they accrue experience and education. You don't make the same amount of money you did when you got your first job, do you?

Kooky said:

Yes, I agree, more skilled fast food cooks certainly should be able to earn more than less skilled ones.

And just so you know, I don't care for the way you look down and denigrate the work of people of low social and economic status,and will ignore them from here on out.

Click to expand...

How did I "look down on and denigrate the work of people of low social and economic status"? Specifically? Please quote me.

Do you know what I do for a living? Do you know anything about my life or work history?

Left Coast said:

Business practices and ethics, including how much employees are paid and how much profit companies make, have been discussions happening in capitalistic societies for a very long time. Markets are regulated.

Click to expand...

Really, can you point out in what way company profits and their practices of wage depression are being regulated?
Because I'm not seeing it, particularly in a country like the US which does not have functioning labor representation.

Go back and read your very first reply to me in this thread. I posed a question to those who think $70K is too low a wage for an average trucker. You replied to it. So if anything, it's you who has an issue with it. So the question is, why? How much should an average trucker salary be in the US? "As much as possible" is a non-response.

Click to expand...

Sure, if you're deliberately taking the least reasonable interpretation of my posts, they're going to sound like "non responses".

We actually take a similar position in this: "Reasonable" wages are negotiated within the context of supply and demand and what a company is willing to pay, therefore any wages that have been successfully negotiated with a company are reasonable by definition.

The primary distinction between our positions seems to be that you seem to attach moral judgement to that criterion, while I do not. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Revoltingest said:

For those who doubt any market freedom in truck driving,
consider the great variation due to type of driving, location,
employer, etc.
Truck Driver Salary

Click to expand...

What a freaking lie that is.

Your lucky to bring in 400 to 700 take home a week.

To make that kind of money you pretty much have to give up your entire homelife and stay on the road just about forever.

Twilight Hue said:

What a freaking lie that is.

Click to expand...

You found a better source for wage statistics?

Left Coast said:

I don't think I said the job was just a walk in the park. What I said is that the job requires low skill and expertise. Which it does. That is why it's a job primarily done by young people as a first or early job in their career before they have much experience or education.

Click to expand...

You keep conflating, skill, expertise, formal qualification and education without even realizing it.

Kooky said:

Really, can you point out in what way company profits and their practices of wage depression are being regulated?
Because I'm not seeing it, particularly in a country like the US which does not have functioning labor representation.

Click to expand...

I'm thinking, off the top of my head, of minimum wage laws. As far as functioning labor representation, that depends on the part of the country you're in and the industry you're in. In California, unions are an extremely powerful and influential force politically.

Sure, if you're deliberately taking the least reasonable interpretation of my posts, they're going to sound like "non responses".

We actually take a similar position in this: "Reasonable" wages are negotiated within the context of supply and demand and what a company is willing to pay, therefore any wages that have been successfully negotiated with a company are reasonable by definition.

Click to expand...

I didn't say any wage, ever at any time. There are exceptions. We were speaking in generalities. And as a gloss that principle is true.

The primary distinction between our positions seems to be that you seem to attach moral judgement to that criterion, while I do not. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Click to expand...

On the contrary, it seems to be you who attaches a moral judgment to that criterion, ie that it is greedy and exploitative. I actually didn't take a position on it at the outset, I simply asked a question to those who thought it was an unfair or insufficient wage. I was, and am, willing to be convinced that the wage should be higher if people have a decent argument as to what it should be and why.

So again, my question to you for the 20th time is: if you have a moral problem with a $70K average wage for truckers, what wage would satisfy you?

Kooky said:

You keep conflating, skill, expertise, formal qualification and education without even realizing it.

Click to expand...

They are often interrelated but distinct.

Left Coast said:

They are often interrelated but distinct.

Click to expand...

They are not. Practical skill cannot be taught by textbooks, and on the job training involves far more than most qualification programs do. Also, neither immediately translate into better paying jobs the way formal qualification and education does.

In order to have skill and expertise translate into better wages, you'd have to work the same job, at an employer who actually valued those criteria, which as you know full well is absolutely not the case for most low end jobs because skill and quality of work are not important there.