The great religion-less religion

Christy: Would it be correct to assume you have no examples, then?

This reminds me of that scene, where the broadcaster tells the people to go to the window, open it up and scream "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not gonna take it any longer!"

Or as a comedian once pointed out; "If you are not completely outraged, then you haven't been listening!"

However, I am hoping that my anger will pass about four years from now.

Christy said:

Some of you on this board are dealing with some serious anger issues.
Anger is clouding your ability to think clearly ----- no scratch that.

Anger is clouding your ability to think.

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Christy - I feel safe in saying that I speak for myself and probably a couple of others when I say that we appreciate the condescending Ad Hominem attack, but it does not negate your obligation to defend your statements.

Retrorich, Sunstone, FeathersinHair, NetDoc and Jensa have asked for (in various ways) some (any) examples to support your statements - our inability to think (at least, in a way that you would approve) should not deter your ability to cite a few. Please, instead of simply prostelytizing, rise to the challenge and respond with a logical, rational answer.

Thanks,
TVOR

PS - for what it is worth, I have no anger issues with you, this thread, or this site. I am very much in control of my emotions, and I hope that you are as well.

I think that it is especially important to give specific examples of Christian persecution (if there are any) because the issue of whether there are or are not real persecutions of Christians going on in our society has been clouded (to say the least) by our hysterical media, and such "objective" folks as Bill O'Reilly.

Sunstone -

Not only is he "objective", he is "Fair and Balanced". :biglaugh:

You have to give them credit at Fox News Network, they do say it with a straight face!

TVOR

I think in cyberspace Christians take quite a beating espcially on the atheists boards. But cyberspace and the world outside of cyberspace are seperate ententies and while I can't understand Christie's exact arguement either I justed wanted to jump out on a limb and propose that from my personal experience Chistians (and muslims) because their religion is based on dogma spend some time on the defensive in cyberspace and I for one apprciate their pacifistic responses (by and large non angered) in light of that situation.

As far as persecution outside of cyberspace --numbers alone in the US would make this impossible. Roughly 75 % of Amercians polled in 2002 list themselves as Christians (source, http://religioustolerance.org) and with numbers like that persecution just ain't happing.

PS netdoc I have to confess you are the first liberal I have ever met who has prosed and advocated death by torture lol....:biglaugh:

robtex said:

PS netdoc I have to confess you are the first liberal I have ever met who has prosed and advocated death by torture lol....

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NetDoc is my kinda guy! I think that's what makes me love him. (uhhh - not in that sort of way).

TVOR

And to think that by nature I am a HUGE pacifist. I simply avoid controversy at almost ALL COSTS! But some things really cause an outrage in me... and using God for political or financial gain is one of them. The immorality presented by those who do this, is epoch in scale. I am sure that Dante would have created an additional level if he had ever met one.

BTW, I wouldn't mess with a kid while I'm around either.

NetDoc said:

And to think that by nature I am a HUGE pacifist. I simply avoid controversy at almost ALL COSTS! But some things really cause an outrage in me... and using God for political or financial gain is one of them.

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1) finicial gain is neccessary as using money is a medium for barting and all religions that propogate (ie all of them) need financial gain for the task of marketing their religion. You probable mean personal financial gain don't you? If so preachers and religous leaders got to eat pay morgage, go fishing on their days off. There has to be a reasonable formula or range for what is acceptable......A free market economy like ours though would suggest that more influence equals more pay ......religion has that in common with sales jobs....linked via marketing. ........

2) Policitcial gain as a by product or meathod of propogating said faith? Are the two seperable or inseperarble....

Netdoc those two points could be a cool thread inandof itself.

1) Personal or Commercial gain is what I was referring to. Good catch.

2) Give to Ceaser what it Ceaser's and to God what is God. Christians should STAY OUT of politics to promote Christianity.

NetDoc said:

2) Give to Ceaser what it Ceaser's and to God what is God. Christians should STAY OUT of politics to promote Christianity.

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Promoting Christianity is a political end.

No citation if persecution against Christians yet?

I`ll check back later.

Keep checking, Linwood - I'm sure some will be forthcoming VERY soon - not!

TVOR

I am criticized for not responding with greater speed to questions. Wake up and smell the coffee! Remember, there are some people around here who do NOT spend their entire lives on boards like this one. There are some people around here who have a life of doing things quite outside the life of just being clever and writing about life.



Some of you accuse David Limbaugh and other Christians of having a persecution complex and that Christian persecution does not exist. Tell me then -



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution in some public schools that severely ridicule and suspend young children of practicing Christian parents for quietly and as privately as possible praying before their meals as they have been taught to do?



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that denies Christian group meetings in public school rooms after-hours, but gladly embraces the meetings of school homosexuals and school political liberals?



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that forces a judge to take down his listing of the Ten Commandments in his courtroom – even if our laws here in the US are actually based partly on these commandments and even if these commandments actually work for the good of all?



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that causes teachers to get extremely angry and rude with students who bring Bibles to read during quiet reading time – when the rules say bring what you wish to read?



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that disallows even the playing of time-honored and well loved Christmas music in shopping malls – because this is hated Christian music even if there are no words?



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that specifically states that parents cannot bring green and red napkins to a school party celebrating the “winter holiday?”



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that disallows the teaching of our founding documents in a California junior high school history class simply because these documents talk about a creator endowing us with certain rights? Remember these are historical documents and this is a history class.



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that renames a Christmas tree with that gloriously inane moniker “holiday tree” when it is a historical Christmas tradition that started this tree decorating business in the first place?



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that seeks to erase all crosses from any public documents even if these crosses have a significant place in the history of such public places?



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution in Philadelphia that arrests 11 people for engaging in their legal first amendment rights on public property by simply reading their Bibles and peacefully displaying posters that condemn homosexual acts – in a crowd of 32,000 celebrating homosexuals and their oh-so clever pink angels doing guard duty?



Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution in Australia that has charged two Christian men with hate crimes because during a seminar on Islam they actually read from the Qu’ran passages that recommend the crucifixions, beheadings and maiming of non-believers?



The list could go on and on. I cannot quote directly from the Limbaugh book right now because it happens to be OUT ON LOAN from my private library to a series of interested readers. I would be delighted to do some quoting when the book comes back and when I choose again to spend some more time at my keyboard.



I do wish you all a happy and Blessed New Year!

Christy said:

I am criticized for not responding with greater speed to questions. Wake up and smell the coffee! Remember, there are some people around here who do NOT spend their entire lives on boards like this one. There are some people around here who have a life of doing things quite outside the life of just being clever and writing about life.



Some of you accuse David Limbaugh and other Christians of having a persecution complex and that Christian persecution does not exist. Tell me then -
......

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Yep! I didn't see anything there that has not been raised to a level of unjustified, systemic anguish. I also see some in gross error of fact and/or interpretation.

Bob

I got the philly article.. one from each side
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1278746/posts

http://www.365gay.com/newscon04/12/121304philCourt.htm

Pah found a lot of the courtroom 10 commandments so no need to redo that, but Christy I want to point out about your 10 commandments in the courtroom.....In the US there is a policy of seperation of church and state and having the 10 commandments in there is a mockery of seperation of church and state. An even bigger mockery though.....is trying to sum of the library of texts neccessary to record the legal systems of each state including pentaly ranges, venues, court tatitcs and investigation precedures with a vauge list of 10 statements. But lets say for the sake of arguement that the legal system did do that....could you please articulate how a muslim or hindu will get a reasonable unpersecuted trial when he walks before the judge after already violationg the first command which says, "thou shall have no other Gods before me."? Just curious.

Christy could you please provide references for the school or schools you are talking about? Just cut and paste the url.

I worked in a mall over xmas and gotta say I am so sick of xmas music. Next year you can have my xmas music ok? But seriously, which malls? Which cities?

On the DL book ..what is the title? Maybe I or someone else here can find it for you?

I never heard holiday tree before...but may I ask why it matters what it is called.....I look at it and thing pine tree with ordaments on it......

DL ..maybe we can thread him his own thread here....could be interesting....

I have to agree with Pah here... "persecution" means far more than having your feelings hurt or even having your rights abridged. These are minor inconveniences when compared to the stoning of Stephen.

II Timothy 3:12 In fact, everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13 while evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

Philippians 1:12 Now I want you to know, brothers, that what has happened to me has really served to advance the gospel. 13 As a result, it has become clear throughout the whole palace guard and to everyone else that I am in chains for Christ. 14 Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly. NIV

To paraphrase Paul... "Quitcherbellyaching!"

Christy said:

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution in some public schools that severely ridicule and suspend young children of practicing Christian parents for quietly and as privately as possible praying before their meals as they have been taught to do?

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In case you've forgotten, Christians are the majority. Unless they're letting a few kids tease them--and let's face it, kids are kids; they're going to get ridiculed regardless of religion--the ones teasing them would almost certainly be Christians of practicing Christian parents as well.

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that denies Christian group meetings in public school rooms after-hours, but gladly embraces the meetings of school homosexuals and school political liberals?

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I'm hearing it again. "Nooo, the gay liberals!" We have several Christian groups at my school that regularly meet. In fact, to deny Christians the right to have clubs at school would be against the law.

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that forces a judge to take down his listing of the Ten Commandments in his courtroom – even if our laws here in the US are actually based partly on these commandments and even if these commandments actually work for the good of all?

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Many laws are similar to the Ten Commandments. "Don't kill, don't steal, don't be a ****, etc" are basics in every culture.

Our laws are based off the Ten Commandments the same way our laws are based off Hammurabi. Similarities in them doesn't mean they're based off them.

And if you're going to whine about the Ten Commandments being taken down, then you've forfeited your right to complain when Satanists, Wiccans, Norse Heathenists, Buddhists, etc want their holy laws put in courts. It's easier to just keep the courts free of religion than to try and please everyone.

Just as a sidenote, telling a Wiccan not to worship other gods doesn't work for the good of him or her.

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that causes teachers to get extremely angry and rude with students who bring Bibles to read during quiet reading time – when the rules say bring what you wish to read?

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Source? I've never heard of things like that.

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that disallows even the playing of time-honored and well loved Christmas music in shopping malls – because this is hated Christian music even if there are no words?

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I vaguely remember hearing something about this last Christmas, but can't remember the details. Can you link to a source (not Fox, please) that details this?

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that specifically states that parents cannot bring green and red napkins to a school party celebrating the “winter holiday?”

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Good lord, provide a source for this rubbish. If it's true, I'm going to be properly indignant about it.

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that disallows the teaching of our founding documents in a California junior high school history class simply because these documents talk about a creator endowing us with certain rights? Remember these are historical documents and this is a history class.

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Urban legend. This is a flat-out lie. Mediamatters.org has what really happened, if you care to read.

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that renames a Christmas tree with that gloriously inane moniker “holiday tree” when it is a historical Christmas tradition that started this tree decorating business in the first place?

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You know, that's funny. Because Christianity didn't start this. They yanked the tradition from pagans.

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that seeks to erase all crosses from any public documents even if these crosses have a significant place in the history of such public places?

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What business does a cross have being in a public place? Unless it's in a church, of course.

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution in Philadelphia that arrests 11 people for engaging in their legal first amendment rights on public property by simply reading their Bibles and peacefully displaying posters that condemn homosexual acts – in a crowd of 32,000 celebrating homosexuals and their oh-so clever pink angels doing guard duty?

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I can't comment on this, as it hits too close to home for me to be fair about it.

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution in Australia that has charged two Christian men with hate crimes because during a seminar on Islam they actually read from the Qu’ran passages that recommend the crucifixions, beheadings and maiming of non-believers?

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You've got a log in your eye, there.

The list could go on and on. I cannot quote directly from the Limbaugh book right now because it happens to be OUT ON LOAN from my private library to a series of interested readers. I would be delighted to do some quoting when the book comes back and when I choose again to spend some more time at my keyboard.

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Mind if I quote from "Rush Limbaugh is a Big Fat Idiot, and Other Observations"?

I do wish you all a happy and Blessed New Year!

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Same to you.

Christy said:

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that disallows even the playing of time-honored and well loved Christmas music in shopping malls – because this is hated Christian music even if there are no words?

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Oddly enough, I shopped in a lot of places before Christmas, and they were all playing 'Christmas music'- with the words still in, of course. I only realized it this year because I was paying attention.

Christy said:

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that specifically states that parents cannot bring green and red napkins to a school party celebrating the “winter holiday?”

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Good question. See below.

Christy said:

Is it a “persecution complex” or is it persecution that renames a Christmas tree with that gloriously inane moniker “holiday tree” when it is a historical Christmas tradition that started this tree decorating business in the first place?

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To echo Jensa below, that tradition actually comes from pagan traditions. Jensa, should we decide that we're being persecuted?

Christy said:

The list could go on and on. I cannot quote directly from the Limbaugh book right now because it happens to be OUT ON LOAN from my private library to a series of interested readers. I would be delighted to do some quoting when the book comes back and when I choose again to spend some more time at my keyboard.

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While you're waiting, I would encourage you to read books from the polar opposite political direction. I'm not trying to say that either is right or wrong, but if you only read from one viewpoint, you're naturally inclined to believe what they say is true. I do this with myself; for every 'liberal' book I read, I make sure I read one of the opposite viewpoint.