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Do you believe your sacred text contains errors?
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
DNB
Christian
Considering, as a Christian, that we do not have the original autographs of either the Old or New Testaments, then, yes, of course, there are errors in our current day Bibles, primarily due to copyist error.
Outside of that, yes, there are also areas that are hard to reconcile with variant manuscripts and/or historical facts. I am in no position to affirm the cause of these discrepancies, whether they be by the ignorance of the author or amanuensis themselves, by the style and literary form of the culture (allowance of hyperbole or imprecision), Authorial intent (theological issues take precedence), etc...
Either way, the serious and dedicated exegete cannot ignore these facts, and must always take them into consideration, for better or for worse, when studying the Judeo-Christian Scriptures.
It's difficult for the theist to be perfect if he didn't pick a perfect religion. Ergo, the religion is also perfect. Furthermore, the theist knows that it is impossible to be wrong, and they must be humble...so they brag that that they are humble as President W. Bush did.
Some might say that they are in denial. The theist, on the other hand, would say "I am not."
"Are in denial" ......"Am not"
"Are"...."Not"
"Global Warming is accelerated by human activities and might kill all life"...."Not"
"Oil companies pollute God's nature"...."Not"
"Glaciers are melting, and aquifers are drying up"...."Not"
"War kills and God said not to kill"...."War doesn't kill, and He did not say/write that"
"Guns are for killing"..."Are not...National Rifle Association is God's association, and hunters, like John Kerry, want to take away our guns...and we may need guns to rebel against America if peaceful people take over."
"Kerry was a decorated war hero"..."Was not...he was a draft dodger"
"McClellan, who lost both legs and an arm in battle was a war hero"..."Was not...he was a draft dodger...and my candidate was a war hero who served under Burkett at the Texas National Guard"
"Flying obsolete planes...never used in war...went AWOL in Texas...family attorney dumped records, Burkett said" "Did not"
"Dan Rather said it's true" "Fire Rather"
"The bible contradicts itself"...."Does not....la la la....won't listen"
"Genesis 1:25 and Genesis 2:18 contradict about which came first animals or humans"...."Does not....la la la...won't listen"
"You'll find a lot of contradictions and fantastic tales (Jonah and the whale) if you read the bible"...."Don't have to read it...the bible is perfect."
"You're trying to stop science from being taught"...."Science is the enemy of religion"
"Is not"...."Is too"
"Bible errors?"
We must worship mammon more than God. Declare bankruptcy to protect mammon (money and graven images) from courts that would compensate boys raped by priests. Priests must be hidden to protect the church (protect Jesus), and moved, though they will rape more little boys. We must lie to protect the church and prevent its assets, that we worship more than God, from compensating its rape victims. Lie about molesting priests to protect the church.
To protect Jesus, lie about bible errors (Genesis 1:25 and 2:18 contradict RE: which came first, humans or animals). The reputation of the bible is at stake, and if the bible is wrong, teachings of the church are wrong, and God is not perfect. So, lie about bible errors to protect Jesus. Satan is known for lies.
Worship the power of God...Satan also has power....power that we should fear...should we worship power or goodness? Is God good?
Jesus promoted peace (thou shalt not kill...turn the other cheek), so promote the National Rifle Association, wars, and torture camps to make sure Christian values win. Perpetual war for peace. Don't bother me with facts....Iraqis were not associated with terrorism. Kill a million Iraqis so we feel that there "might be" fewer terrorists in the Middle East.
Get our candidates elected, even if we have to lie and deceive to do so (Satan deceives).
Don't pay attention to the truth. Make up stories and win by propaganda (that is what Satan does). War hero--turned politician, McClellan, ran against President W. Bush. McClellan lost 2 legs and an arm in the Vietnam War. But the perception was that McClellan was a draft dodger, and W. Bush was a war hero. W. Bush, during the Vietnam War, served with the Texas National Guard under Burkett, and trained to fly an obsolete plane that would never be used in the war. Millions of dollars were spent on the training boondoggle. Burkett said that W. Bush went AWOL (a firing squad offense during the war), but daddy Bush's lawyers broke into Burkett's office and threw away the records. Burkett took the files out of the trash can and took them home (illegal), copied them, gave them to CBS news anchor Dan Rather...Rather fired for showing copies. Somehow W. Bush came off as a war hero while McClellan was "thought to be" a draft dodger. Ditto, W. Bush discredited Senator John Kerry with lies. Satan tells lies. A phony organization finally came clean (called Veterans for Truth), and they said that they lied about Kerry's wartime service. The NRA (National Rifle Association) was against Kerry, who, during the campaign, went hunting (using a gun), because the NRA said he was against guns. The NRA wasn't pro-gun, they were anti-Democrat, and were willing to tell lies for Jesus.
Millions of avid Religious Right voters voted for W. Bush, because they felt that he would live up to his promise to end abortion (he never bothered to do anything about his campaign promise).
The lies don't stop there:
1. Global Warming
2. Oil company pollution (for mammon)
3. Glaciers melting
4. Aquifers drying up.
5. Rivers and lakes running dry.
6. Animals going extinct
7. The western seaboard (California, Oregon, Washington state) is on fire, due to dry brush and homeless people starting fires.
8. As jobs were outsourced for cheap foreign labor, manufacturing towns and states (Detroit and Ohio) were destroyed. President W. Bush said that Americans don't want to work (people actually believed him).
9. The American economy tanked as a result of the loss of jobs and failed business model (home loans were 125% of value, so when values dropped, homes went into foreclosure, which dominoed through the economy). Rush Limbaugh spent years on the radio blaming the wrong people for the failure (but, the Canadian was highly compensated to upset the balance of power in America).
Science is perceived to be the enemy, yet, science made the vaccine, which is the only thing stopping COVID at this point. Millions of lives are being saved, and the economy can "somewhat" recover.
Political Science professors pointed out problems with Daddy Bush's presidency (Iran Contra scandal, in which counterfeit US currency was made by the government, narcotics were traded with the Medellin Drug Cartel of Colombia and sold in the United States to fund imitation Russian made weapons given to the Contra dictatorship of Nicaragua to fight the Sandinistas who merely wanted a wage to continue living, and education for their kids. Arms were then traded to the dictators of Iran. All this was done by President Reagan and Vice President Bush with Congress knowing, and with the express disapproval of Congress.
So, Daddy Bush said that smart people were against him (it was a plot by all of the smart people of the world).
It is amazing that people believe the lies and perceptions, rather than the realities.
This is why the religious are wooed. They don't base their beliefs on facts, they base them on perceptions, and they are easily manipulated like sheep.
W. Bush was about to lose an election to a truly religious person, and, at that time, he realized the power of religion to gain votes and mislead the public.
Bible errors must be hidden from view, so that false perceptions of perfection can be created to woo more believers.
We must worship mammon more than God. Declare bankruptcy to protect mammon (money and graven images) from courts that would compensate boys raped by priests. Priests must be hidden to protect the church (protect Jesus), and moved, though they will rape more little boys. We must lie to protect the church and prevent its assets, that we worship more than God, from compensating its rape victims. Lie about molesting priests to protect the church.
To protect Jesus, lie about bible errors (Genesis 1:25 and 2:18 contradict RE: which came first, humans or animals). The reputation of the bible is at stake, and if the bible is wrong, teachings of the church are wrong, and God is not perfect. So, lie about bible errors to protect Jesus. Satan is known for lies.
Worship the power of God...Satan also has power....power that we should fear...should we worship power or goodness? Is God good?
Jesus promoted peace (thou shalt not kill...turn the other cheek), so promote the National Rifle Association, wars, and torture camps to make sure Christian values win. Perpetual war for peace. Don't bother me with facts....Iraqis were not associated with terrorism. Kill a million Iraqis so we feel that there "might be" fewer terrorists in the Middle East.
Get our candidates elected, even if we have to lie and deceive to do so (Satan deceives).
Don't pay attention to the truth. Make up stories and win by propaganda (that is what Satan does). War hero--turned politician, McClellan, ran against President W. Bush. McClellan lost 2 legs and an arm in the Vietnam War. But the perception was that McClellan was a draft dodger, and W. Bush was a war hero. W. Bush, during the Vietnam War, served with the Texas National Guard under Burkett, and trained to fly an obsolete plane that would never be used in the war. Millions of dollars were spent on the training boondoggle. Burkett said that W. Bush went AWOL (a firing squad offense during the war), but daddy Bush's lawyers broke into Burkett's office and threw away the records. Burkett took the files out of the trash can and took them home (illegal), copied them, gave them to CBS news anchor Dan Rather...Rather fired for showing copies. Somehow W. Bush came off as a war hero while McClellan was "thought to be" a draft dodger. Ditto, W. Bush discredited Senator John Kerry with lies. Satan tells lies. A phony organization finally came clean (called Veterans for Truth), and they said that they lied about Kerry's wartime service. The NRA (National Rifle Association) was against Kerry, who, during the campaign, went hunting (using a gun), because the NRA said he was against guns. The NRA wasn't pro-gun, they were anti-Democrat, and were willing to tell lies for Jesus.
Millions of avid Religious Right voters voted for W. Bush, because they felt that he would live up to his promise to end abortion (he never bothered to do anything about his campaign promise).
The lies don't stop there:
1. Global Warming
2. Oil company pollution (for mammon)
3. Glaciers melting
4. Aquifers drying up.
5. Rivers and lakes running dry.
6. Animals going extinct
7. The western seaboard (California, Oregon, Washington state) is on fire, due to dry brush and homeless people starting fires.
8. As jobs were outsourced for cheap foreign labor, manufacturing towns and states (Detroit and Ohio) were destroyed. President W. Bush said that Americans don't want to work (people actually believed him).
9. The American economy tanked as a result of the loss of jobs and failed business model (home loans were 125% of value, so when values dropped, homes went into foreclosure, which dominoed through the economy). Rush Limbaugh spent years on the radio blaming the wrong people for the failure (but, the Canadian was highly compensated to upset the balance of power in America).
Science is perceived to be the enemy, yet, science made the vaccine, which is the only thing stopping COVID at this point. Millions of lives are being saved, and the economy can "somewhat" recover.
Political Science professors pointed out problems with Daddy Bush's presidency (Iran Contra scandal, in which counterfeit US currency was made by the government, narcotics were traded with the Medellin Drug Cartel of Colombia and sold in the United States to fund imitation Russian made weapons given to the Contra dictatorship of Nicaragua to fight the Sandinistas who merely wanted a wage to continue living, and education for their kids. Arms were then traded to the dictators of Iran. All this was done by President Reagan and Vice President Bush with Congress knowing, and with the express disapproval of Congress.
So, Daddy Bush said that smart people were against him (it was a plot by all of the smart people of the world).
It is amazing that people believe the lies and perceptions, rather than the realities.
This is why the religious are wooed. They don't base their beliefs on facts, they base them on perceptions, and they are easily manipulated like sheep.
W. Bush was about to lose an election to a truly religious person, and, at that time, he realized the power of religion to gain votes and mislead the public.
Bible errors must be hidden from view, so that false perceptions of perfection can be created to woo more believers.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Again, correct. Although Muhammad is not recorded as actually carrying out any of his political assassinations himself afaiaa.
There is no such message in the Quran. Pretty much all the references to lying admonish against it.
However, there are ahadith where Muhammad says that three types of lying are permitted -
"Allah's Messenger said: A liar is not one who tries to bring reconciliation amongst people and speaks good (in order to avert dispute), or he conveys good. Ibn Shihab said he did not hear that exemption was granted in anything what the people speak as lie but in three cases: in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband (in a twisted form in order to bring reconciliation between them)." - Sahih Muslim
Partly correct. The Saudi authorities are not rejecting the hadith per se. They are just removing them from the constitution so they are no longer obliged to impose policies based on them. Bin Salman cannot further his agenda of modernisation while the sunnah is part of the constitution. (Note: he may be socially progressive, but he is still a brutal dictator. It is as likely to be window dressing as a heartfelt need for change).
firedragon
Veteran Member
Quite an extensive post. Is that your thoughts or thoughts you got from somewhere else? I ask out of curiosity.
Quran
Quran (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.
Quran (3:28) - This verse instructs believers not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves" against danger, meaning that there are times when a Muslim may appear friendly to non-Muslims, even though they should not feel friendly.
Quran (9:3) - "...Allah and His Messenger are free from liability to the idolaters..." The dissolution of oaths is with pagans who remained at Mecca following its capture. They did nothing wrong, but were evicted anyway. (The next verse refers only to those who have a personal agreement with Muhammad as individuals - see Ibn Kathir vol 4, p 49)
Quran (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you the dissolution of your oaths..." For today's reader, the circumstances for betraying your word are not specified, leaving this verse open to interpretation. According to Yusuf Ali in his commentary: "if your vows prevent you from doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons, you should expiate the vow." (Presumably, whatever advances the cause of Islam would qualify as 'doing good').
Quran (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who had to "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.
Quran (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts" (see also 5:89)
Quran (3:54) - "And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers." The Arabic word used here for scheme (or plot) is makara, which means 'cunning,' 'guile' and 'deceit'. If Allah is supremely deceitful toward unbelievers, then there is little basis for denying that Muslims are allowed to do the same. (See also 8:30 and 10:21)
Taken collectively these verses are interpreted to mean that there are circumstances when a Muslim may be "compelled" to deceive others for a greater purpose.
Mohammed Bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia in a new interview on Al Arabiya describes what he sees as the problem with a majority of hadith which he says are not reliable for not having good chains and should not be used in Sharia anymore.
VIDEO: Saudi Crown Prince MBS Rejects Most Hadith, Wahhabism, Promotes Reliance on Quran - NewsRescue.com
The Crown Prince apparently wants to make Saudi Arabia the Silicon Valley of the Middle East, and he will have problems successfully doing that under current Sharia law. His solution appears to be modification of Sharia law, by removing the majority of Hadiths and relying on the Koran. The problem with that is that the Hadiths provide the context for the Koran, whether being a false narrative or not. It is what is known as a Catch 22. I expect he increased his security guard contingent after that interview.
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Some of them just by the vowels changes the meaning and are opposed to each other. Some changing the word from fight to kill or vice versa, or others are less severe but for example changing whether the entire feet to ankle or part of the feet to ankle is supposed to be wiped. We need know from the Sunnah it's the entire feet to the ankle to be wiped, but not the bottom of the feet from what I understand so because of this, some were in the view, it should be partial (grammar) and some were saying because of feet to ankle it means entire, and so this is why the discrepancy is there, you can look it obvious as the bottom of the feet is not included (then no need of partial) or you can say you have to rule it (then need of partial). There is also harf (not the vowels) discrepancies between recitations out there, but all this is not a problem for me, because just as there are various interpretations and we pick the rational one or do research, the same is true of the discrepancies in recitation
The Quran is still protected, it just takes some research to find the proper recitation where they differ.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Thats Adhaa. Its not considered Quran.
Specific example?? And you have not understood Harf I should just say it right now. But give your example. Maybe you would understand.
@firedragon off-topic, but I did research in Shiite hadiths about "mischief maker", the mischief maker is said to be the one who threatens people with his weapon whether he kills them or actually fights or not, but if you carry weapons scaring people, then this is the term "mischief maker" and you can be killed. You are not allowed for example, threatening people with the sword, then say, well I didn't actually hit them.
It was long time ago I researched into it. I don't even have the websites anymore I researched into.
firedragon
Veteran Member
I was wondering what in the world is this mischief maker. But this post I think cleared it. You mean alfasadhin fil ardh. I think.
Use Quran bi Quran as a method. It will show you very clearly what its referring to. They kill innocent people, in the name of Allah. Kaaloo thakaa sama biullah. They are the worst kind of people. Their similarity is with the mosquito. They pretend to be "reformers" and they will impress people. But they are bottom-line murderers of the innocents in the name of God, and that is an easy and simple identifier.
Peace.
I agree with you killers are included and is the primary meaning, but I do think people threatening others lives are included as well. Whether they kill or not, if you take a weapon and threaten people with it, this is mischief making as well.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Brother. You just invented it. Thats not what the Qur'an says anywhere. I dont really engage much with inventions attributed to scripture. The Quran speaks about people who do that.
But its your prerogative.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
Those say that there are occasions where lying is not considered wrong. They don't "teach them they can lie", and no idea what "protect the mystic of the Quran" means.
Yes, he wants to take the sunnah out of the legal and judicial system, he is not saying it should be abandoned theologically.
I am probably as vocal a critic of Islam as you will find, but it is vital to be absolutely accurate and balanced in that criticism.
I would also avoid quoting TheReligionofPeace.com as a source - not because it is wrong but because all the information it contains is available elsewhere from less contentious sources. Apologists cannot dismiss quran.com or quranx.com as a "hate site".
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
On the other hand, Ibn Kathir (the most widely used tafsir worldwide) explains that "spread mischief" includes disbelief and disobeying god's law.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
According to Ibn Kathir...
("Do not make mischief on the earth''), that is disbelief and acts of disobedience.'' Abu Ja`far said that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that Allah's statement,
(And when it is said to them: "Do not make mischief on the earth,''), means, "Do not commit acts of disobedience on the earth. Their mischief is disobeying Allah, because whoever disobeys Allah on the earth, or commands that Allah be disobeyed, he has committed mischief on the earth.
So while this may include bandits and murderers, that is not an exclusive list.
Also, statements like "They kill innocent people" are kinda meaningless without defining "innocent". Islam allows for "lawful killing" that would be considered "murder" today.
KWED
Scratching head, scratching knee
The Quran doesn't actually define what "spreading mischief" means, so we have to consult authoritative scholarly sources. I guess you can cherry-pick your scholar to push your chosen agenda. As someone once said, you can find a passage to justify pretty much anything somewhere in the Quran and sunnah.
That's your methodology, and how you respond to the sent ones. Not everyone has to respond like that.