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Do you believe your sacred text contains errors?

Do you believe your sacred text (the Bible or Quran) contains errors?

  • Yes

    Votes: 8 53.3%

  • No

    Votes: 7 46.7%
  • Total voters
    15
P

pearl

Well-Known Member
Inspiration, the belief that the biblical books were fully inspired by the Holy Spirit, so that God may be said to be the primary and ultimate author. ( 2 Tim 3:16-17).
For Roman Catholics, inerrancy is understood as a consequence of biblical inspiration; it has to do more with the truth of the Bible as a whole than with any theory of verbal inerrancy. Vatican II says that "the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching firmly, faithfully, and without error that truth which God wanted put into the sacred writings for the sake of our salvation" (Dei Verbum 11). What is important is the qualification of "that truth" with "for the sake of our salvation", that not all biblical narratives should be understood as historical, since the sacred writers also use narratives in a symbolic way to teach religious truths.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Spiderman said:
I have not met a Christian or Muslim who believed their sacred text contained errors.
Click to expand...

Then you have not met any people who have studied the text. You should up your game and study, and learn scholarly work.

Spiderman said:
The New testament says all Scripture is inspired by God.
Click to expand...

What does it mean "all scripture"? All scripture in the entire world? Or is it the Bible? Is it with the OT apocrypha in the Douay? Or is it the Tanakh? Or is it the NT with 27 books? Or is it with 29 books? Or is it 31 books? Which one?

Spiderman said:
I used to pray at a mosque and I live in Minneapolis, highest Somalian population in America, so met many Muslims. None of them believe their text contains errors.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by your word "errors"? Internal? External? Emotional? scientific? Statistical? Linguistic? Whats your definition?
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
KWED said:
The hadith are not "holy scriptures". They are merely the record of Muhammad's words and deeds during his prophethood, transmitted orally, and collected and compiled by men some time after the event.
Even the most devout Muslim accepts that some hadith are unreliable, inauthentic, or even fabricated. What is genuinely puzzling is why the inauthentic and fabricated hadith are retained in collections. Perhaps it is these that they are proposing to remove, which would make sense.

No Muslim admits to there being any error or even contradiction in the Quran, which is clearly an unsupportable position, given the obvious errors and contradiction it contains. But such things are only to be expected from a book written 1400 years ago by men with little knowledge or understanding of the world.
Click to expand...

There was no complete Quran till the 8th century, and the early fragments didn't agree, and the earliest Quran out of Yemen, was a written over another text, with the fragments dating prior to when the Quran was supposedly given according to the Islamic narrative, written in the 9th and 10th century by sons of Persians, in what is now known as Iraq. The present canonical Quran, wasn't even declared until the early 20th century in Egypt. There was no historical great trading center in Mecca in the early 7th century or earlier, nor a historical Mhmd (praised one/muhammad) ruling that area at the time. The only direct reference of the term Mhmd, the praised one, in the Quran, was to Isa Ibn Maryam, Yeshua, who was declared a prophet of Allah. The early fragments of the Quran appear to come from Jewish, Christian, and Zoroaster sources. The correlation of Mhmad in the original walls of the dome of the rock, are with Isa Ibn Maryam, and is a rant about the Byzantine Trinity, and the dome was an architectural copy of a close Byzantine earlier church. The first Islamic type coin was in the late 7th century. The previous coins were Byzantine in character, and contained images, and were supposedly coined by Islamic leaders. I have seen where modern western Islamic scholars admit that multiple Qurans are being used around the world and they do not match, which of course, they do not. On the other hand, many Islamist think there is only one version of the Quran, and it it's master copy is kept in heaven. I have never seen it. Perhaps like with Mhmd's wife, concerning the chapter of stoning of adulteresses, the family goat ate it. Or that by way of a suggestion by Mhmd's friend, the veil for women was introduced into the text, at least according to the Hadith. It appears that unlike what is written in the Quran, the contents were not all produced or protected by Allah.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
Then you have not met any people who have studied the text. You should up your game and study, and learn scholarly work.



What does it mean "all scripture"? All scripture in the entire world? Or is it the Bible? Is it with the OT apocrypha in the Douay? Or is it the Tanakh? Or is it the NT with 27 books? Or is it with 29 books? Or is it 31 books? Which one?



What do you mean by your word "errors"? Internal? External? Emotional? scientific? Statistical? Linguistic? Whats your definition?
Click to expand...

The "all scripture", refers to those "sacred writings" "from childhood". The NT wasn't written at the time of Paul's childhood. (2 Timothy 3:15).
 
KWED

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
firedragon said:
Then you have not met any people who have studied the text. You should up your game and study, and learn scholarly work.
Click to expand...
Are you claiming that there are Muslim scholars who claim there are errors in the Quran?
Crikey!
Any links?
 
KWED

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
2ndpillar said:
There was no complete Quran till the 8th century, and the early fragments didn't agree, and the earliest Quran out of Yemen, was a written over another text, with the fragments dating prior to when the Quran was supposedly given according to the Islamic narrative, written in the 9th and 10th century by sons of Persians, in what is now known as Iraq. The present canonical Quran, wasn't even declared until the early 20th century in Egypt. There was no historical great trading center in Mecca in the early 7th century or earlier, nor a historical Mhmd (praised one/muhammad) ruling that area at the time. The only direct reference of the term Mhmd, the praised one, in the Quran, was to Isa Ibn Maryam, Yeshua, who was declared a prophet of Allah. The early fragments of the Quran appear to come from Jewish, Christian, and Zoroaster sources. The correlation of Mhmad in the original walls of the dome of the rock, are with Isa Ibn Maryam, and is a rant about the Byzantine Trinity, and the dome was an architectural copy of a close Byzantine earlier church. The first Islamic type coin was in the late 7th century. The previous coins were Byzantine in character, and contained images, and were supposedly coined by Islamic leaders. I have seen where modern western Islamic scholars admit that multiple Qurans are being used around the world and they do not match, which of course, they do not. On the other hand, many Islamist think there is only one version of the Quran, and it it's master copy is kept in heaven. I have never seen it. Perhaps like with Mhmd's wife, concerning the chapter of stoning of adulteresses, the family goat ate it. Or that by way of a suggestion by Mhmd's friend, the veil for women was introduced into the text, at least according to the Hadith. It appears that unlike what is written in the Quran, the contents were not all produced or protected by Allah.
Click to expand...
Correct (although it is possible that there was a "complete Quran" during the latter part of the 7th century).
 
KWED

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
firedragon said:
What do you mean by your word "errors"? Internal? External? Emotional? scientific? Statistical? Linguistic? Whats your definition?
Click to expand...
What do you mean by your word "Internal? External? Emotional? scientific? Statistical? Linguistic?" Whats your definition?
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
2ndpillar said:
There was no complete Quran till the 8th century
Click to expand...

Lie.

And there is no complete Bible until the 4th century, and that has at least two books extra in the NT (depending on the manuscript), and seven books extra in the OT.

You will ignore this, and repeat a lot of things like a shot gun technique. ;)
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Link said:
Yes, some of the versions of recitation of Quran have errors.
Click to expand...

1. When you say recitation are you referring to harf, kiraath, or tajweed?
2. Which one has errors and specifically what is the exact "error" you refer to?

Interesting.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
firedragon said:
Lie.

And there is no complete Bible until the 4th century, and that has at least two books extra in the NT (depending on the manuscript), and seven books extra in the OT.

You will ignore this, and repeat a lot of things like a shot gun technique. ;)
Click to expand...

The current most commonly used canon wasn't formally written down until 367 AD, way after the "falling away" (Zechariah 13:7 & Matthew 26:31), and the combining of the message of the devil, the tare seed, with the message of the son of man, the "good seed". It is a matter of one must sift out the chaff from the wheat, and then burn the chaff, which really doesn't happen until the "end of the age" (time of the harvest), when the righteous will be separated from the wicked/lawless (Matthew 13:30 & 13:49-50) , and the "wicked" will be thrown into the furnace of fire (great tribulation), which is just behind the door (Matthew 24:33). Once the wicked are thrown into the fire, the wheat, the product of the good seed, is taken into the barn (placed on the land given to Jacob) (Ezekiel 37:24-25).

I haven't ignored the corruption of the text, as it is self explained within the text.
 
IndigoChild5559

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Spiderman said:
If you are not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, please do not vote on the poll.

I have not met a Christian or Muslim who believed their sacred text contained errors. The New testament says all Scripture is inspired by God.

I used to pray at a mosque and I live in Minneapolis, highest Somalian population in America, so met many Muslims. None of them believe their text contains errors.

You?
Click to expand...
I voted that my sacred text (the Torah, Tanakh, an dTalmud) contain errors. I've also met Christians who acknowledge errors in their NT texts as well. Inspired is not the same thing as without mistakes.

Islam is a younger religion. Whereas Judaism and Christianity have had the opportunity to undergo reform, Islam has yet to go through any such thing. I would anticipate that the time is ripe for such a reformation in Islam, but we can only wait and see.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
KWED said:
Correct (although it is possible that there was a "complete Quran" during the latter part of the 7th century).
Click to expand...

According to 9th and 10th century Islamic tradition, there were different early versions of the Quran, which were supposedly burned and another one compiled, and sent to the provinces, but there is no full transcript of this supposedly very holy book from any of those provinces. Again, in 1924, a new canon was chosen, and the other Qurans were supposed to have been thrown into the Nile. Apparently the Quran floats, because there are still over 60 different versions being sold around the world. The majority of Muslims don't speak Arabic, and their grasp of the content and the history seems to be pretty well lacking, and they think there is only one Quran, with a copy in heaven. I think just mocking this Mhmd (Mohammad), carries a death sentence. According to Islamic tradition, the supposed Mohammad character supposedly stabbed a poetess mother in the stomach and killed her for writing a poem mocking him. The Quran teaches Muslims that they can lie in order to protect the mystic of the Quran. Heretics, fallen Moslems, are under a death sentence, for which the Saudi version gives the heretic 10 days to repent, or they face execution. Without the Hadiths, little sense can be made of the Quran. The Hadiths give the context, and now they are under attack by the Saudi prince. The Hadiths, like the Talmud, are a collection of the traditions of men. Both have been given credibility when none is apparently deserved. They are historically simply the rote of men.
 
2

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
IndigoChild5559 said:
I voted that my sacred text (the Torah, Tanakh, an dTalmud) contain errors. I've also met Christians who acknowledge errors in their NT texts as well. Inspired is not the same thing as without mistakes.

Islam is a younger religion. Whereas Judaism and Christianity have had the opportunity to undergo reform, Islam has yet to go through any such thing. I would anticipate that the time is ripe for such a reformation in Islam, but we can only wait and see.
Click to expand...

I doubt if there will be any real reform, for according to "Scripture", " I will gather the nation against Jerusalem" and they, the nations, will eventually be crushed (Zechariah 14:1-12) & (Daniel 2:45), which would include the feet of iron (Rome) mixed with clay (Muslims), probably would not happen if they looked closely at their texts, and history instead of relying on Islamic narratives, written by sons of Persians, in the 9th and 10th century, or sons of hell as in the case of parts of the NT. As for the Jews (Judah), they still are under the chastened per Jeremiah 30:11 and Hosea 5, but because of their name sake, the house of Israel (Ephraim) will fare better than the nations/Gentiles (Ezekiel 36:21) in which Israel had been "scattered", and who are to be "destroyed completely" in Jeremiah 30:11. The "reform" of the "Christian" church has been cosmetic in nature, and provides little or no protection from the coming day of the Lord (Joel 2:31-32).
 
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