What is God?

blü 2 said:

But unfortunately none of that tells me the objective test that will determine whether any real entity I may find is God or not.

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I find the Bible says to ' taste ' and see...... at Psalms 34:8-9
After all, we don't have the personal experience Jesus had.
David had many trials or problems in which he had divine help in his saying at Psalms 34:4,8
Or, in other words, through David's personal experience seeing God's hand in his own life.
If we want God to draw us then God will draw people - John 6:44
Thus, through objective study or Bible research to know God we can discover for oneself that or how God can sustain us.
Through personal knowledge as John 17:3 says.
Peter believed that to be true at 1 Peter 2:3.
Even if we only have bare necessities at this time we will have an abundant of good things coming - Isaiah 35th chapter.
So, by 'testing the waters', so to speak, can give us what can determine whether any real entity is or exists.

URAVIP2ME said:

So, by 'testing the waters', so to speak, can give us what can determine whether any real entity is or exists.

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You can determine whether the unicorn is real by finding a real unicorn in nature. (So far no luck.)

But the difference here between God and the unicorn is that if we found a real unicorn, we have a sufficient description to determine whether it's a unicorn or not ─ equine, single straight horn on forehead, approachable only by virgins &c.

When we search in nature, in reality, for a real god, what real thing are we actually looking for? What is the sufficient description of a real god that will allow us to determine whether any real suspect is God or not?

blü 2 said:

If God doesn't have objective existence, is not found in nature, then the only way God exists is as a concept/thing imagined in an individual brain. In your example, [he]'d be a thing imagined, no?

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Isn't there a difference between something found in nature and simply existing (even beyond nature or consciousness)?

alypius said:

Isn't there a difference between something found in nature and simply existing (even beyond nature or consciousness)?

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Things can exist in two ways ─ they can have objective existence, that is, be found in the world external to the self, nature, which we know about through our senses and which is what 'real' means ─ or in an individual's brain they can be purely conceptual / imaginary, with no real counterpart.

blü 2 said:

You can determine whether the unicorn is real by finding a real unicorn in nature. (So far no luck.)
But the difference here between God and the unicorn is that if we found a real unicorn, we have a sufficient description to determine whether it's a unicorn or not ─ equine, single straight horn on forehead, approachable only by virgins &c.
When we search in nature, in reality, for a real god, what real thing are we actually looking for? What is the sufficient description of a real god that will allow us to determine whether any real suspect is God or not?

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In Scripture we find Jesus and Jesus explained his real God to us.
In nature we find that when man tampers with nature it does Not turn out as man expected.
Nature is for man's benefit, and man was assigned to care for nature.
It is man and Not nature that is bringing ruin to Earth.
This is why God is going to have Jesus step in to undo all the damage unrighteous man has done over the centuries.
There is No other solution outside of God's kingdom government to solve the now too BIG international problems.

URAVIP2ME said:

In Scripture we find Jesus and Jesus explained his real God to us.

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Not in terms of God's reality, such that if we find a real candidate we can determine whether it's God or not ─ and if God is real, if God is not just a concept / thing imagined in individual brains, then there must be such a description.

URAVIP2ME said:

In nature we find that when man tampers with nature it does Not turn out as man expected.
Nature is for man's benefit, and man was assigned to care for nature.
It is man and Not nature that is bringing ruin to Earth.
This is why God is going to have Jesus step in to undo all the damage unrighteous man has done over the centuries.
There is No other solution outside of God's kingdom government to solve the now too BIG international problems.

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I share your concerns for the earth, though no god or God is doing anything about it, so it's always going to be a human problem.

blü 2 said:

Things can exist in two ways ─ they can have objective existence, that is, be found in the world external to the self, nature, which we know about through our senses and which is what 'real' means ─ or in an individual's brain they can be purely conceptual / imaginary, with no real counterpart.

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'Counterpart' reminds me of ancient Babylon.
As the people migrated away from Babylon they spawned an endless variety of religions that had its base or source in ancient Babylon.
This is why we see so many similar or overlapping religious concepts and ideas spread world wide all linking back to ancient Babylon.
In other words, those ancient people carried with them 'their type' or all manner of 'their' religious concepts creating a greater religious Babylon or Babylon the Great.
Thus, as ancient Babylon's dominate feature was ' their ' religious ideas, so modern religious Babylon is like her ancient counterpart in playing the harlot by compromising with political elements such as supporting political wars.
Supporting wars on both sides of the issue even using the pulpit as a recruiting station so parents would sacrifice their young men on the Altar of War as if that is the same as the Altar of God, which it is Not.
Mankind in general has its religious family tree in a vestige of man-made teachings ->outside of Scripture.
This includes 'Christendom' (Christian but mostly in name only) and this modern-day monstrosity also developed from its base in ancient Babylon with its Babylonian-based beliefs which is now so fractured into disunified denominations yet all of 'Babylon's daughters' have the same conceptual imaginary 'mother'.

blü 2 said:

Not in terms of God's reality, such that if we find a real candidate we can determine whether it's God or not ─ and if God is real, if God is not just a concept / thing imagined in individual brains, then there must be such a description.
I share your concerns for the earth, though no god or God is doing anything about it, so it's always going to be a human problem.

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In Scripture, the description about God's attributes or qualities are: love, justice, wisdom and mercy.
Jesus did Not use his individual brain but taught from the old Hebrew Scripture such as found at Psalms 19:7-11.
First, Jesus said before we see fulfillment of Psalms 46:9; Revelation 11:18 B the good news of God's kingdom (Daniel 2:44 ) would first be declared world wide according to Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8.
What humans are going to do is found at 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. They will be saying, "Peace and Security..." but that human rosy saying is going to prove to be the precursor to the coming great tribulation of Revelation 7:14,9 before Jesus, as King of God's kingdom, takes the action as mentioned at Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15.
In other words, the ' sword-like executional words from Jesus' mouth ' will rid the Earth of the wicked.
So, yes God is doing something about it because God's kingdom message is Now proclaimed on a grand international scale as never before in history. Even through remote translation offices native peoples can have Scripture in their own mother tongue or native language and decide who they would like as Sovereign over them.

blü 2 said:

Things can exist in two ways ─ they can have objective existence, that is, be found in the world external to the self, nature, which we know about through our senses and which is what 'real' means ─ or in an individual's brain they can be purely conceptual / imaginary, with no real counterpart.

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Could something have objective existence but be non-material (therefore non-measurable)?

alypius said:

Could something have objective existence but be non-material (therefore non-measurable)?

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'Material' means composed of matter/ energy, and I can't see any way for your suggestion to be the case. Put it this way ─ what objective test can distinguish the "immaterial" from the imaginary?

URAVIP2ME said:

In Scripture, the description about God's attributes or qualities are: love, justice, wisdom and mercy.

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My parents weren't amateurs at those things either.

But what are the biology, metabolism, morphology, genetics and reproductive processes of God? If God is real, God has all those things, or real equivalents to them. Without them there's no concept of a God that's real, exists outside of imagination.

blü 2 said:

.....But what are the biology, metabolism, morphology, genetics and reproductive processes of God? If God is real, God has all those things, or real equivalents to them. Without them there's no concept of a God that's real, exists outside of imagination.

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Those 'possesses' of God seems to me are summed up in Scriptures as God's holy spirit - Psalms 104:30
When God sends forth His spirit things are created.
In connection to things happening, the Bible connects that with God's Power, God's Strength.
In other words, through God's spirit ( His abundant dynamic strength and energy ) things happen.

We don't have to imagine that the Bible exists, and to me there is No other book that answers about God's purpose for mankind. Adam lost Eden for us. Jesus will regain Eden for us.
We don't have to imagine today's Global troubles which shows that man is Not capable of solving today's international problems.
Some have said to me the answer is in technology.
We know technology is a two-way street: Atomic Energy / Atomic Bomb.
Thus, only by divine involvement into mankind's affairs can be the real solution.
And through Scripture with the teachings of Christ Jesus I find God as real with a real solution.

blü 2 said:

'Material' means composed of matter/ energy,....... Put it this way ─ what objective test can distinguish the "immaterial" from the imaginary?

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We see the material effects caused by wind and gravity although we don't see the air and gravity.
Yet we don't imagine that wind and gravity exists.
God used His Energy (Power and Strength - Isaiah 40:26) to create the material / matter.

As Creator then God is in the creation business - Revelation 4:11.
In Scripture the invisible realm came first, then God expanded His creation business to include the visible realm.

What is God?
What is invisible?

URAVIP2ME said:

Those 'possesses' of God seems to me are summed up in Scriptures as God's holy spirit - Psalms 104:30

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God's 'holy spirit' is a spirit, an immaterial thing, a supernatural thing, which no objective test can distinguish from the imaginary or purely conceptual.

So we're still talking about a being that's purely conceptual/ imaginary, not a real being.

As I said, a real being would have its biology, metabolism, morphology, neurology, reproductive processes, and so on. And there doesn't appear to be even the concept of such things for God.

URAVIP2ME said:

We see the material effects caused by wind and gravity although we don't see the air and gravity.

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Wind is an entirely physical phenomenon, the movement of regions of air in response to heating and cooling, or to the displacement of liquids or solids, and so on.

I can tell you the composition of the atmosphere or you can look it up for yourself.

Describe to me the composition of God.

Gravity is "a natural phenomenon by which all things with mass or energy—including planets, stars, galaxies, and even light—are attracted to (or gravitate toward) one another".

How much does God weigh?

blü 2 said:

Things can exist in two ways ─ they can have objective existence, that is, be found in the world external to the self, nature, which we know about through our senses and which is what 'real' means ─ or in an individual's brain they can be purely conceptual / imaginary, with no real counterpart.

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You said "which we know about" through our senses. That's not always the case. There is also non-empirical (a priori) knowledge/justification. For example: 4+3=7.

Also there is personal experience...

PearlSeeker said:

You said "which we know about" through our senses. That's not always the case. There is also non-empirical (a priori) knowledge/justification. For example: 4+3=7.

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Is it a priori knowledge or does it just follow by inference from observation and education?

(Incidentally, 3+4=7 is not found in nature, in two senses. First, there are no uninstantiated threes, fours or sevens in nature. Second there are no instantiated threes, fours or sevens in nature except those which we create for ourselves, by imposing our own purposes on what we observe. Thus before we can count out there in reality, first we must choose what we want to count, and second we must choose the field in which we want to count them eg how many seats in this row, how many hens in the barn, how many vacant parking spaces at the station &c. So in your example, the items may be real but the arraying of them as per the maths is as completely conceptual as the maths.

I should add a footnote that we humans have evolved brains that can take in the number of examples we're looking at, one, two, three, four or five, at a glance, instantly as it were. Above that we have to pause and figure. Other animals can do similar things ─ crows. we know, can 'count' to three in this way.)

blü 2 said:

Is it a priori knowledge or does it just follow by inference from observation and education?

(Incidentally, 3+4=7 is not found in nature, in two senses. First, there are no uninstantiated threes, fours or sevens in nature. Second there are no instantiated threes, fours or sevens in nature except those which we create for ourselves, by imposing our own purposes on what we observe. Thus before we can count out there in reality, first we must choose what we want to count, and second we must choose the field in which we want to count them eg how many seats in this row, how many hens in the barn, how many vacant parking spaces at the station &c. So in your example, the items may be real but the arraying of them as per the maths is as completely conceptual as the maths.

I should add a footnote that we humans have evolved brains that can take in the number of examples we're looking at, one, two, three, four or five, at a glance, instantly as it were. Above that we have to pause and figure. Other animals can do similar things ─ crows. we know, can 'count' to three in this way.)

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We learn from experience to understand the concepts involved but once learned no further experience is necessary to know that 3+4=7. If there are 3 apples and you add 4 more you don't have to see and count them to know that now there are seven of them. This is known independent of any experience.

Another example:
We know A is taller than B
and we know C is taller than A.
No further empirical data is needed to conclude that C is taller than B. Just logic.

PearlSeeker said:

We learn from experience to understand the concepts involved but once learned no further experience is necessary to know that 3+4=7. If there are 3 apples and you add 4 more you don't have to see and count them to know that now there are seven of them. This is known independent of any experience.

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You just said it wasn't, that instead it was a conclusion from experience ─ which it is.

PearlSeeker said:

Another example:
We know A is taller than B
and we know C is taller than A.
No further empirical data is needed to conclude that C is taller than B. Just logic.

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But you need to have acquired the concepts of "taller" and "shorter". They're something you learn when you learn the words "taller" and "shorter".

blü 2 said:

God's 'holy spirit' is a spirit, an immaterial thing, a supernatural thing, which no objective test can distinguish from the imaginary or purely conceptual.
So we're still talking about a being that's purely conceptual/ imaginary, not a real being.
As I said, a real being would have its biology, metabolism, morphology, neurology, reproductive processes, and so on. And there doesn't appear to be even the concept of such things for God.
Wind is an entirely physical phenomenon, the movement of regions of air in response to heating and cooling, or to the displacement of liquids or solids, and so on.
I can tell you the composition of the atmosphere or you can look it up for yourself.
Describe to me the composition of God.
Gravity is "a natural phenomenon by which all things with mass or energy—including planets, stars, galaxies, and even light—are attracted to (or gravitate toward) one another".
How much does God weigh?

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How much does God weigh reminds me of when people would ask how many angels on the head of a pin !
By mentioning wind and gravity is just that they are Not immediately visible but the unseen is still there.
( even a vacuum in space is Not visible but still exists )
I think sound does Not travel through a vacuum but the vacuum still exists and so does invisible sound exist.
Physical phenomenon, natural phenomenon, does Not have to mean spiritual phenomenon does Not exist.
God is a Spirit Person (as are angels) a Spirit Being, so we should Not expect Him to have a physical body.
God's spirit (Psalms 104:30) is what God used in order for people to write down His words in the Scriptures.
People were simply God's secretary writing down His thoughts as God as the Bible's Author.