Are all sins equal?

Kooky said:

So who is being harmed or victimized is irrelevant in this system of categorization.

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I genuinely have no idea what you mean by this statement/question. Forgive me for my deficiency in understanding.

We Never Know said:

So basically its worse to attack the creator than the creation?

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In that it separates you more immediately from God, yes. Although they are not unrelated, for St. John the Apostle teaches "whoever loves God loves his neighbor," but this is because loving God includes loving all He does and so on, which includes making and preserving creatures and drawing them to Himself, so it is that whoever loves God loves his neighbor because of God.

Lain said:

In that it separates you more immediately from God, yes. Although they are not unrelated, for St. John the Apostle teaches "whoever loves God loves his neighbor," but this is because loving God includes loving all He does and so on, which includes making and preserving creatures and drawing them to Himself, so it is that whoever loves God loves his neighbor because of God.

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In what way is murder an attack against god, when it is clearly the creature being murdered who is being attacked and harmed?

Lain said:

In that it separates you more immediately from God, yes. Although they are not unrelated, for St. John the Apostle teaches "whoever loves God loves his neighbor," but this is because loving God includes loving all He does and so on, which includes making and preserving creatures and drawing them to Himself, so it is that whoever loves God loves his neighbor because of God.

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I guess it is the other way around.
Whoever loves the neighbor, loves God

Kooky said:

In what way is murder an attack against god, when it is clearly the creature being murdered who is being attacked and harmed?

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In my opinion: it is an indirect (I saw indirect because your immediate aim is to cause death in this creature, usually at least) attack against God because as Moses teaches "God made man according to the image of God," and in the Psalter it says "the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof; the world, and all that dwell in it," (not to the exclusion of things not in Earth for many other verses teach all things including this are God's). So by murder one in essence damaging what is God's and attacking the sign of His dominion in the world (at least according to one understanding of the Image of God, which I currently agree with but may very well be wrong), like attacking the vicar of a king is simply considered going against the king also.

Lain said:

In my opinion: it is an indirect (I saw indirect because your immediate aim is to cause death in this creature, usually at least) attack against God because as Moses teaches "God made man according to the image of God," and in the Psalter it says "the earth is the Lord's and the fulness thereof; the world, and all that dwell in it," (not to the exclusion of things not in Earth for many other verses teach all things including this are God's). So by murder one in essence damaging what is God's and attacking the sign of His dominion in the world (at least according to one understanding of the Image of God, which I currently agree with but may very well be wrong), like attacking the vicar of a king is simply considered going against the king also.

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Ah, so you're separating sins against humans vs. sins against other creatures.

Kooky said:

Ah, so you're separating sins against humans vs. sins against other creatures.

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Yes. In my opinion the concept of sins against lower creations is interesting, but every time I investigate it it is always related back to humans sometimes in a definite way or in (and I particularly hate this) some indefinite way. For instance to abuse and torture the irrational animals is considered to be contrary to our own dignity and so is a sin, but I wonder can it not be said to be a sin because it is against their (the irrational animals) dignity also? Their existence is intrinsically good so it makes sense to me that it would be. Not sure where that road goes though currently, it's the end of my knowledge.

Altfish said:

5.“Thou shalt not kill.” ...
Fair enough, you're suddenly getting serious - better tell the soldiers not to kill in battle.

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Staying away from literalism of a certain version of the Bible, the way this is often put is "don't murder".

sun rise said:

Staying away from literalism of a certain version of the Bible, the way this is often put is "don't murder".

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What about a female killing an abusive uncle?

Look, I'm being pedantic BUT it underlines the fact that the commandments are not very good

Altfish said:

What about a female killing an abusive uncle?

Look, I'm being pedantic BUT it underlines the fact that the commandments are not very good

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I found this...

"The commandment "thou shalt not kill" (found in the KJV Bible translation of Exodus 20:13), is better understood in the New King James Version Bible.

"You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13, NKJV throughout).

Most modern translations of the Bible render Exodus 20:13 like the New King James Bible.

To kill someone is not the same as murdering them according to the Bible. Murder is the unlawful taking of a human life. The command not to murder applies to human beings and not to animals. God gave animals to mankind for his use (Genesis 1:26 - 30, 9:1 - 4). But, this does not mean that humans have the right mistreat animals and the environment (Genesis 2:15, Deuteronomy 22:6 - 7, 25:4, Proverbs 12:10)."

What does Thou Shall Not Kill mean?

We Never Know said:

Are all sins equal or are some worse than others
For example the 10 commandments are..

• I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any gods before Me.” ...
• “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” ...
• “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.” ...
• “Honor thy father and mother.” ...
• “Thou shalt not kill.” ...
• “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” ...
• “Thou shalt not steal.”
• “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
• “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
• “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Is it just as bad to lie as it is to kill?

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Obviously not.

We Never Know said:

Are all sins equal or are some worse than others
For example the 10 commandments are..

• I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any gods before Me.” ...
• “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” ...
• “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.” ...
• “Honor thy father and mother.” ...
• “Thou shalt not kill.” ...
• “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” ...
• “Thou shalt not steal.”
• “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
• “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
• “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Is it just as bad to lie as it is to kill?

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I would say they are not equal in weight but are equal in its capacity to hinder your relationship with your loving Creator.

Thank you, Jesus, for the blood you shed on Calvary and the cleansing power thereof no matter how weighty my sins were, are or will be and for your resurrection power.

We Never Know said:

"You shall not murder"

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The problem with such a commandment is that it's tautological. It's the equivalent of saying "don't do what is forbidden". If it weren't forbidden, we wouldn't be telling you not to do it. That's what "forbidden" means. Murder is "wrongful, illegal, killing"; of course you can't murder that's why we call murder "wrongful, illegal, killing".

We Never Know said:

I find it interesting that you have thought about them so much that you took the time to dissect them down to turn/try to turn them into something negative.

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But you know, when you really do look deeply, there is much that is negative. Worse, there is much that simply ignores the immense diversity of human life.

Simple rules (like the commandments) -- if and only if they are used as nothing more than guidelines -- can be a handy sort of template. But when they become dogma, they can also become nightmares.

I was an abused child, almost killed twice before I was 7 years old and taken away by the Children's Aid. Okay, talk to me about "honour thy father and thy mother."

When I was in my teens, and homeless on the streets of Toronto, the world shut down on Sunday's, and I had quite literally no place to go. How did "honour the Sabbath day" help me? I was -- I tell you this in all truth -- utterly miserable.

Even now, park and other recreation spaces are nearly empty many days of the week -- and completely overcrowded to the point of making them not worth visiting on just a couple. The point of the "Sabbath Day" wasn't making one day "holy," it was making sure that we rest once in a while. But why should everybody rest at the same time? It makes immensely more sense in a crowded world if we stagger out use of recreational facilities -- precisely so that they're not empty most times, and unusable at others.

As to "coveting," well now you are into the territory of the "thought crime," and most of us, because we are human, are not in perfect control of our thoughts. Go ahead, do not think of an elephant with an erection right now. No, it would have behooved God much more to tell us He understood how our minds work, but that we can have some control over what we do with the thoughts that arise within them.

Now, in my view, a truly loving God would not have given a bunch of "thou shalt nots," but rather a bunch of positive recommendations for how to live a physically and mentally healthy life, within a community that supports you because you belong and don't default.

I admit that the Bible suggests Jesus did a bit of that -- "forgive," "do good to them that despitefully use you," visit the prisoner in jail, provide what you can to others who are suffering.

But the Ten Commandments do none of that. They are bizarre, based in an excessively limited world-view, and -- to be quite honest -- of very little use at all.

I've never understood why they still get so much attention.

KenS said:

I would say they are not equal in weight but are equal in its capacity to hinder your relationship with your loving Creator.

Thank you, Jesus, for the blood you shed on Calvary and the cleansing power thereof no matter how weighty my sins were, are or will be and for your resurrection power.

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I'm better than God. I can forgive without the shedding of blood.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

I'm better than God. I can forgive without the shedding of blood.

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Yes... you are god above gods.

We Never Know said:

Are all sins equal or are some worse than others
For example the 10 commandments are..

• I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any gods before Me.” ...
• “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” ...
• “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.” ...
• “Honor thy father and mother.” ...
• “Thou shalt not kill.” ...
• “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” ...
• “Thou shalt not steal.”
• “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
• “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
• “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Is it just as bad to lie as it is to kill?

Click to expand...

Really sin is sin... The only real difference is some have greater penalties in this life. From a human standpoint some of them seem a lot worse than others, but from God's standpoint I believe all are equal.

Wildswanderer said:

Really sin is sin... The only real difference is some have greater penalties in this life. From a human standpoint some of them seem a lot worse than others, but from God's standpoint I believe all are equal.

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So while we see one sin worse than the other, in a god's view a sin is a sin period, there is not one worse than the other?

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Simple rules (like the commandments) -- if and only if they are used as nothing more than guidelines -- can be a handy sort of template. But when they become dogma, they can also become nightmares.

I was an abused child, almost killed twice before I was 7 years old and taken away by the Children's Aid. Okay, talk to me about "honour thy father and thy mother."

When I was in my teens, and homeless on the streets of Toronto, the world shut down on Sunday's, and I had quite literally no place to go. How did "honour the Sabbath day" help me? I was -- I tell you this in all truth -- utterly miserable.

Click to expand...

Your horrible situations are why I don't think of them as absolute commandments but as principles and examples of how to be when it is possible.

We Never Know said:

Are all sins equal or are some worse than others
For example the 10 commandments are..

• I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any gods before Me.” ...
• “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.” ...
• “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.” ...
• “Honor thy father and mother.” ...
• “Thou shalt not kill.” ...
• “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” ...
• “Thou shalt not steal.”
• “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
• “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.”
• “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

Is it just as bad to lie as it is to kill?

Click to expand...

It alarms me that some Christians want to say that all sins are equal. After all, the torah makes it very clear that they aren't by giving very different penalties for different things.

By the way, although you quote the ten commandments, keep in mind that the Torah contains a total of 613 commandments.