Is This Going To Become The Norm?

metis · Oct 22, 2021

Secret Chief said:
Were the videomakers immigrants...

I don't know, nor does it make one iota of difference to me if it is or isn't. :shrug:

metis · Oct 22, 2021

HonestJoe said:
Good (ish) intentions are fine but unless you find yourself in that kind of situation, you don't know how you'd actually respond. As has already been explained, the psychology of this kind of thing is more complex than you might give credit for.

An FBI report many moons ago found that the vast majority of people who witness a rape in progress will just walk on by. Some of you of my "vintage" may remember the rape and killing of a woman outside an apartment complex witnessed by many people, and yet none of them even called the police.

The name "Kitty Genovese" flashed into my head just now, but I don't know if that's correct as this was decades ago.

Watchmen · Oct 22, 2021

metis said:
OK, with rapes and murders being done by the thousands each year, why would the OP only cite an "immigrant" on this? Gee, one might think there's some bigotry involved.

But then someone may be totally oblivious to the fact that undocumented aliens have an overall lower crime rate than do American citizens on the average.

Here’s another way to look at. Maybe the OP is bigoted. Separate and apart from that, however, if the perpetrator was an illegal immigrant then it sure would have been nice if he was kept out of this country so he didn’t commit this horrific crime. That statement is true regardless of demographic crime rates. If we can prevent a rape, ought we not to do so???

Secret Chief · Oct 22, 2021

metis said:
I don't know, nor does it make one iota of difference to me if it is or isn't.

Nor me. The OP seemed concerned the assailant was an immigrant.

Revoltingest · Oct 22, 2021

Secret Chief said:
Nor me. The OP seemed concerned the assailant was an immigrant.

You left off some relevant info about why this immigration
status mattered. I'm sure you wouldn't want to falsely paint
the OP as prejudiced, so I'll quote some of the post for you....

It also seems that the accused lowlife had overstayed his visa in 2015 and was put in immigration detention in 2018 but not deported but because he received a "withholding of removal" from an immigration judge in March 2019 after the Board of Immigration Appeals found that his misdemeanor sex offense was not a "serious crime" that would have made him ineligible for such a stay.
In addition court records show that he had multiple arrests.

Couldn't we agree that someone with a multiple arrest record,
including a sex offense, calls into question our standards for
immigration?

Secret Chief · Oct 22, 2021

Revoltingest said:
You left off some relevant info about why this immigration
status mattered. I'm sure you wouldn't want to falsely paint
the OP as prejudiced, so I'll quote some of the post for you....

Couldn't we agree that someone with a multiple arrest record,
including a sex offense, calls into question our standards for
immigration?

We can.

Revoltingest · Oct 22, 2021

Secret Chief said:
We can.

Woohoo!
Detente.

metis · Oct 22, 2021

Watchmen said:
Here’s another way to look at. Maybe the OP is bigoted. Separate and apart from that, however, if the perpetrator was an illegal immigrant then it sure would have been nice if he was kept out of this country so he didn’t commit this horrific crime. That statement is true regardless of demographic crime rates.

That is true, but my point is that the OP was being used as a partisan wedge-issue against certain immigrants, and they weren't "Norwegians" per Trump's lamented that we should have more of.

Watchmen said:
If we can prevent a rape, ought we not to do so???

Absolutely.

Secret Chief · Oct 22, 2021

Revoltingest said:
Woohoo!
Detente.

Peace, bro.

Bodie · Oct 22, 2021

Revoltingest said:
I wonder....
Aren't we supposed to decry vigilante actions?
Unarmed bystanders subduing a potentially armed
assailant does have its risks. What if they injured
the immigrant in the process? No good deed goes
unpunished in our litigious society.

I would much rather take my chances than live knowing I did nothing.

Kooky · Oct 22, 2021

metis said:
An FBI report many moons ago found that the vast majority of people who witness a rape in progress will just walk on by. Some of you of my "vintage" may remember the rape and killing of a woman outside an apartment complex witnessed by many people, and yet none of them even called the police.

The name "Kitty Genovese" flashed into my head just now, but I don't know if that's correct as this was decades ago.

It's a pretty famous case - first because people assumed that it was about the bystander effect; but after people dug deeper, it's become a pretty famous case of irresponsible journalism and misreporting:

The incident prompted inquiries into what became known as the bystander effect, or "Genovese syndrome",[6] and the murder became a staple of U.S. psychology textbooks for the next four decades. However, researchers have since uncovered major inaccuracies in the New York Times article. Police interviews revealed that some witnesses had attempted to call the police.

Reporters at a competing news organization discovered in 1964 that the Times article was inconsistent with the facts, but they were unwilling at the time to challenge Times editor Abe Rosenthal. In 2007, an article in the American Psychologist found "no evidence for the presence of 38 witnesses, or that witnesses observed the murder, or that witnesses remained inactive".[7] In 2016, the Times called its own reporting "flawed", stating that the original story "grossly exaggerated the number of witnesses and what they had perceived".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kitty_Genovese

The bystander theory used to be popular in an era when the middle class became increasingly motivated to push for police to "solve" social issues via incarceration, more severe punishment, profiling etc. but its basis in verifiable empirical data seems to have become increasingly tenuous with further research.

https://nscr.nl/en/bystander-blijkt-wel-degelijk-in-actie-te-komen-bij-ruzie-op-straat/

Lindegaard and her team studied a total of 219 disputes recorded by security cameras. In almost every single case, bystanders intervened to calm the situation. They separated fighting people, stood in between troublemakers or tried to make the troublemakers walk away. And the more bystanders, the higher the chance of intervention – especially in large groups there is always somebody who intervenes. Only in the case of arguments between couples and a single instance where a thief was beaten up did bystanders fail to intervene or intervened too late. 'Apparently, people experience arguments between couples as a personal matter that does not require intervention', says Lindegaard. Also, in the case of fights between women, bystanders do not take action as quickly. 'Perhaps we see them as less dangerous.'

Revoltingest · Oct 22, 2021

Bodie said:
I would much rather take my chances than live knowing I did nothing.

I agree....with due caution.

Shadow Wolf · Oct 22, 2021

We Never Know said:
There aren't many places in public were we aren't on a camera somewhere whether they are public or private or phone

People are always looking to capture the perfect news or youtube video.

It's still a calloused disregard for the wellbeing another to film and do nothing.

Watchmen · Oct 22, 2021

metis said:
That is true, but my point is that the OP was being used as a partisan wedge-issue against certain immigrants, and they weren't "Norwegians" per Trump's lamented that we should have more of.

Absolutely.

Yeah. I get it. I abhor wedge issues.

esmith · Oct 22, 2021

metis said:
That is true, but my point is that the OP was being used as a partisan wedge-issue against certain immigrants, and they weren't "Norwegians" per Trump's lamented that we should have more of.

Seem's like you have graduated to being a psychic or is it tea leaves you are now reading.
Suggest you take your Trump hysterics and see a professional.

HonestJoe · Oct 23, 2021

Shadow Wolf said:
Getting to a phone was more inconvenient back then. Today those people filming are using a damn mobile phone. There is no excuse.

So we're only expected to report serious crimes if it's convenient?

Seriously though, I'm not looking to excuse anything, I'm just challenging the idea that the underlying psychological or behavioural elements have changed. The general technological environment has obviously changed massively but ultimately, human beings haven't. I think this is an important point as it indicates that the situation can't be improved by just attacking the technology or current generations, we need to acknowledge and understand the psychology.

Revoltingest · Oct 23, 2021

esmith said:
Seem's like you have graduated to being a psychic or is it tea leaves you are now reading.
Suggest you take your Trump hysterics and see a professional.

I can recommend a good therapist.

Guitar's Cry · Oct 23, 2021

esmith said:
Seem's like you have graduated to being a psychic or is it tea leaves you are now reading.
Suggest you take your Trump hysterics and see a professional.

This would make a lot more sense if Trump didn't put immigration in the political spotlight with controversy for the previous four years.

Is This Going To Become The Norm?

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Watchmen

Well-Known Member

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist

Secret Chief

nirvana is samsara

Bodie

Member

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber

Watchmen

Well-Known Member

esmith

Veteran Member

HonestJoe

Well-Known Member

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan