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What are you trying to prove to others?

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
This OP is mainly for those who have a religious or spiritual belief/faith, but everyone is welcome to take part :)

The question for this OP is: What are you trying to prove to others about your religious/spiritual belief?

If you actually do try to prove something, what is the reason for doing so?

PS: No matter what reason someone has, please be kind and respectful in this discussion.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
On a practical level, I often find myself having to prove it's a legitimate religious path and that it's not a Jewish conspiracy.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
That even proof, truth, evidence, logic and so on all have limits. I believe in limited cognitive relativism and I am a strong skeptic. Even faith and beliefs has limits too.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
This OP is mainly for those who have a religious or spiritual belief/faith, but everyone is welcome to take part :)

The question for this OP is: What are you trying to prove to others about your religious/spiritual belief?

If you actually do try to prove something, what is the reason for doing so?

PS: No matter what reason someone has, please be kind and respectful in this discussion.

Less trying to prove and more trying to suggest the benefits of critical thinking.
Secondarily I suppose that maybe we ought to question our own certainty.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
That even proof, truth, evidence, logic and so on all have limits. I believe in limited cognitive relativism and I am a strong skeptic. Even faith and beliefs has limits too.
Actually, I agree with much of what you say, even down to that for human beings there can be a limitation of what one can believe or have faith in, Or said in a different way, each individual person will have different limitations of what they are able to realize as spiritual truth.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Less trying to prove and more trying to suggest the benefits of critical thinking.
Secondarily I suppose that maybe we ought to question our own certainty.
Agree with you here, especially about the questions to ourselves about how certain we can be, or is it only a belief.
Maybe some religious people can become a bit afraid of challenging themself? I know I used to be
 

VoidCat

Pronouns: he/him/they/them
This OP is mainly for those who have a religious or spiritual belief/faith, but everyone is welcome to take part :)

The question for this OP is: What are you trying to prove to others about your religious/spiritual belief?

If you actually do try to prove something, what is the reason for doing so?

PS: No matter what reason someone has, please be kind and respectful in this discussion.
That I'm not a terrible person who murders children and sleeps with satan. Lucifer is not into sleeping with his followers. And sacrificing folk will make him hate you and possibly backfire on you. Basically some folks take the old antisemtic rhetoric about blood libel from the medieval ages and turn it so it applies to satanists,luciferians, and witches. Oh and pagan deities are not demons but I won't try to prove that one to folk cuz there's no point. For one no way to do so and two by that point you are too prejudice against me to argue with. Heck you would be too if you believe I sacrifice children and sleep with satan but at least I can try to act like a decent person and try to show you I don't murder the innocent.
 
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Brinne

Active Member
That I believe in kindness & love. Which is something that's easier to display in action rather than words.

For some reason people think that I need to prove that I'm not either a) "a barbaric war-mongering bigot" or b) too "dumb" to understand my own beliefs, or that I'm somehow mentally inferior for having a belief in monotheism.

Which to be honest I try and ignore those conversations because they're never made in good faith.
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Not trying to prove anything to anybody. I am just trying to subject my beliefs to criticism, or else wise.

I guess my main criticism is that evidence can be interpreted in far different ways then what people consider to be fact. I see a lot of people officiating their version of accurate reality for everybody else. And with some religious beliefs and metaphysical ideas there is no way of telling if somebody is correct or not. What's obvious to one, is ridiculous to another, and on and on we go.

I think there's plenty of good reasons to hold some religious and metaphysical ideas as possible. Some religious, and metaphysical ideas I hold to be obvious and true, but very few.

To me existence is a great mystery with no one having a monopoly on ultimate existential questions. It's amazing what people call science that is their own philosophy instead. It's equally amazing what religious ideas people cling to that are obviously literally refuted.

But so long as others religious ideas don't impact my life negatively and forcefully I'm fine. As long as people don't force their philosophy as scientific fact on me, I'm fine. There is a big difference between seeking to understand, and trying to ram one's certainty down another's throat. And the debate nonsense is just people talking past each other.

In the mainstream I see two ways of thinking that conflict with each other. I don't share much in common with either side. God vs. Science philosophy projected as scientific fact as if philosophy was dead, and all religion was ridiculous.

Still RF is a good learning experience about how some people live their lives.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
I'm not trying to prove anything. But I am trying to get people to recognize the Yin in the Yang, and visa versa. Science and religion are just tools. They are not solutions. The solutions come from learning how (and when) to use the tools, and how (and when) not to. They each have their tried and true methodology and purpose, and they each have their profound limitations. As do the other cognitive tools that we humans have available to use, like imagination and intuition and instinct. And they are all effective when used appropriately. And ineffective when not.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
This OP is mainly for those who have a religious or spiritual belief/faith, but everyone is welcome to take part :)

The question for this OP is: What are you trying to prove to others about your religious/spiritual belief?

If you actually do try to prove something, what is the reason for doing so?

PS: No matter what reason someone has, please be kind and respectful in this discussion.

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I see no reason whatsoever to prove anything to anyone.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
That even proof, truth, evidence, logic and so on all have limits. I believe in limited cognitive relativism and I am a strong skeptic. Even faith and beliefs has limits too.

So you believe all truth is relative?
To me, if truth is relative then truth is not a relevant value between us.
And, I'm not saying this is wrong, only that in dealings between individuals, truth is not useful.
So "truth" has no actual value, even among friends.
 

SalixIncendium

अग्निविलोवनन्दः
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm trying to prove that I like turtles.

Some tell me to prove this.

Sadlly, I cannot. It saddens me to say that may like for turtles does not exist. :(
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
This OP is mainly for those who have a religious or spiritual belief/faith, but everyone is welcome to take part :)

The question for this OP is: What are you trying to prove to others about your religious/spiritual belief?

If you actually do try to prove something, what is the reason for doing so?

PS: No matter what reason someone has, please be kind and respectful in this discussion.
I am trying to prove absolutely nothing! Every single solitary person who wants to gain spiritual truth, has the right to go to God in prayer, asking for guidance in discerning truth from falsehood. Theists of every flavor can testify till they're blue in the face as to what's true and what's not, but God alone can convey to the sincere in heart what He wants them to know.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So you believe all truth is relative?
To me, if truth is relative then truth is not a relevant value between us.
And, I'm not saying this is wrong, only that in dealings between individuals, truth is not useful.
So "truth" has no actual value, even among friends.

No, not really.
Here are 3 versions of truth, here are the first 2 ones:
There is one version, that works on everything.
There is no truth at all and everything is relative.

Now these 2 are both too simple.
So here is a simple trick. Consider truth a human behaviour. Try it and here is what it leads to.
The 3rd version:
Truth is how humans understand(a human behavior) and explain(also a human behavior) something, which matters. But just as all other human behavior this is neither everything/absolute nor nothing/absolutely relative. Truth is about explain how the world works for humans as behavior and there is not one behavior for everything nor is a behavior nothing if it can't do everything.

In other words as it connects to the 2 overall claims of behavior:
Only that, which is shared through observation and build upon, matters. (Matters is an human evaluation, a behavior)
Only that, which makes sense and matters as the existential questions of being a human and how to deal with that, matters.

Here they are in another sense: Only what is external to the human mind matters or only that which is internal to human mind matters.
So back to truth: There are more than these 2, but there are the main ones: External and internal truth.
We can expand and differentiate a lot more, but if you look closer they are both here as what science can and can't do.
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

Now as knowledge. Knowledge about what we all share and how we deal with being individual.
The first one is science and the second one is social science, human science(yes, that is a form of science), religion and philosophy.
So how gravity works is one truth and how to be a human are many truths, yet you can learn to do it for the concept of humanity. Not that the last one is better than any other human truth, but it is possible.
 

Firelight

Inactive member
It’s never been my intent to prove anything. But since joining this forum a month ago, it seems I’m often being challenged by a member who is trying to bind me up with their limitations and doubts.

For example, some try to limit me to believing in the theory of evolution with all its flaws. Another tells me that their own interpretation of a certain text is the only correct one. A few limit “Christians” to only those who believe in the Holy Trinity as defined by Emperor Constantine’s council, 1700 years ago. Others limit God by saying He doesn’t exist because bad things happen in the world. Still others insist that I cannot be certain or confident in my knowledge of God and spiritual matters.

If I’ve been ‘pushed’ into proving anything, it’s that another person cannot push their doubts and limits onto me, or someone else, and expect a change of mind or any kind of agreement.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
It’s never been my intent to prove anything. But since joining this forum a month ago, it seems I’m often being challenged by a member who is trying to bind me up with their limitations and doubts.

For example, some try to limit me to believing in the theory of evolution with all its flaws. Another tells me that their own interpretation of a certain text is the only correct one. A few limit “Christians” to only those who believe in the Holy Trinity as defined by Emperor Constantine’s council, 1700 years ago. Others limit God by saying He doesn’t exist because bad things happen in the world. Still others insist that I cannot be certain or confident in my knowledge of God and spiritual matters.

If I’ve been ‘pushed’ into proving anything, it’s that another person cannot push their doubts and limits onto me, or someone else, and expect a change of mind or any kind of agreement.
Boy, do I ever hear you!
 
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