Israel, the Servant of God

Redemptionsong · Oct 19, 2021

rosends said:
You mean the words that other writers attributed to Jesus were usually loosely linked to ideas developed in Judaism. So that when Jesus makes a wrong statement about plucking wheat kernels on the sabbath it is connected to a biblical event. The word "the" is in the Hebrew scriptures but that doesn't mean that when I use it, the Hebrew scriptures become relevant.

"For himself"? What does that mean? A prophet who says "God sent me and here is the message" claims the words "for himself."

Yes, it is.

this verse is explicitly God speaking to and of the prophet in second person. The other verses are in the first person.

Clearly, the opinion that this refers to the prophet, himself, is informed by the context. Ignoring the later Christian-inserted chapter headings, one would see that only 3 verses earlier God (first person) speaks of the prophet he sends as distinct from the false prophets of Baal.

11:2 is separate -- the Ibn Ezra writes, "The majority of commentators apply this chapter to the Messiah, as if the prophet said, The Assyrian army, which is now attacking Jerusalem, will perish; but besides this partial deliverance, a time of complete redemption will come for Jerusalem. R. Moses Hakkohen refers the chapter to Hezekiah, on account of its being the continuation of the prophecy recorded in the preceding chapter."

So who says 11:2 is about the prophet?

You have some very sloppy readings going on here.

The response of Jesus to those who criticised his actions on the Sabbath was to say, 'Have you not read what David did, when he was a hungred, and they that were with him,
How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
But l say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
But if you had known what this meaneth, l will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day'.

The [Torah] Jewish idea of the Messiah as a man born of flesh but not of the Spirit of God is, lMO, at the root of the confusion over the identity of the Messiah. It's a mistake, l believe, to think that the Messiah is not the Son of God, and the Saviour.

Rival · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The [Torah] Jewish idea of the Messiah as a man born of flesh but not of the Spirit of God is, lMO, at the root of the confusion over the identity of the Messiah. It's a mistake, l believe, to think that the Messiah is not the Son of God, and the Saviour.

Considering you guys came after the Jewish folks it's on you to prove your beliefs rather than the other way around. Where do you think Jews get their ideas from? Thin air?

rosends · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The response of Jesus to those who criticised his actions on the Sabbath was to say, 'Have you not read what David did, when he was a hungred, and they that were with him,
How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Or have you not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
But l say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
But if you had known what this meaneth, l will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day'.

Exactly -- so his "rooted" means that he makes wrongheaded connections and draws erroneous conclusions. Hurray!

Redemptionsong said:
The [Torah] Jewish idea of the Messiah as a man born of flesh but not of the Spirit of God is, lMO, at the root of the confusion over the identity of the Messiah. It's a mistake, l believe, to think that the Messiah is not the Son of God, and the Saviour.

Ah, so the Jewish texts which innovated the idea of a messiah is wrong about its own idea, but some adjunct texts and the doctrine developed to support these newer texts has it right.

That's a hard pass right there.

Redemptionsong · Oct 19, 2021

Rival said:
Considering you guys came after the Jewish folks it's on you to prove your beliefs rather than the other way around. Where do you think Jews get their ideas from? Thin air?

What the New Testament scriptures provide is a key by which to unlock the Tanakh. If this key is faulty then there is no consistency and no unlocking.

I wish to show that it is not faulty.

The question at the centre of the disagreement is whether or not Jesus Christ is the Messiah as promised in the Hebrew scriptures. The fact that Jews have focused their attentions on the coming of the 'King of Kings' demonstrates that they have rejected the 'suffering servant'. Yet, there are clearly two distinguishable types apparent in scripture. The 'son of Joseph' (the servant) and the 'son of David' (the King).

So, what are the typical expectations that Torah Jews have of the coming Messiah? He is expected as a man, born in Bethlehem, of the royal house of David, of the tribe of Judah. He comes to defeat the enemies of Israel and establish peace throughout the earth. Nations will come to Jerusalem to worship the one God.

Tell me, am l correct in thinking this a common belief amongst Jews?

rosends · Oct 19, 2021

"born in Bethlehem"? No. That is not a common belief among Jews.

Rival · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
What the New Testament scriptures provide is a key by which to unlock the Tanakh.

The Tanakh speaks for itself. It doesn't need 'unlocking'. All you have to do is read the verses.

Redemptionsong said:
The question at the centre of the disagreement is whether or not Jesus Christ is the Messiah as promised in the Hebrew scriptures.

No, there is no question amongst Jewish believers. He wasn't the Mashiach. The only people who think there's a question is, bizarrely, the people who already believe in him as the messiah.

Redemptionsong said:
The fact that Jews have focused their attentions on the coming of the 'King of Kings' demonstrates that they have rejected the 'suffering servant'.

Because the Mashiach isn't the suffering servant.

Redemptionsong said:
Yet, there are clearly two distinguishable types apparent in scripture. The 'son of Joseph' (the servant) and the 'son of David' (the King).

Yes and neither match Jesus.

Redemptionsong said:
He is expected as a man, born in Bethlehem, of the royal house of David, of the tribe of Judah. He comes to defeat the enemies of Israel and establish peace throughout the earth. Nations will come to Jerusalem to worship the one God.

Being born in Bethlehem is not one, but the rest is a good general overview. This is what's given in the Tanakh.

Redemptionsong · Oct 19, 2021

rosends said:
"born in Bethlehem"? No. That is not a common belief among Jews.

Then of whom is Micah 5:2 speaking?

'But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in lsrael; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting'.

We know that Jesse came from Bethlehem, and that it was the royal city of David. So, why do you not believe that the Messiah, the son of David, will be born there?

Redemptionsong · Oct 19, 2021

Rival said:
The Tanakh speaks for itself. It doesn't need 'unlocking'. All you have to do is read the verses.

No, there is no question amongst Jewish believers. He wasn't the Mashiach. The only people who think there's a question is, bizarrely, the people who already believe in him as the messiah.

Because the Mashiach isn't the suffering servant.

Yes and neither match Jesus.

Being born in Bethlehem is not one, but the rest is a good general overview. This is what's given in the Tanakh.

The 'suffering servant' passages all match Jesus Christ perfectly. The Messianic verses have yet to be proved. Yet, as Isaiah demonstrates, the suffering servant is, in fact, the same person as the Messiah. This is also made clear in the story of king David, who was anointed by Samuel well before becoming king over Judah and Israel.

Rival · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The 'suffering servant' passages all match Jesus Christ perfectly. The Messianic verses have yet to be proved. Yet, as Isaiah demonstrates, the suffering servant is, in fact, the same person as the Messiah. This is also made clear in the story of king David, who was anointed by Samuel well before becoming king over Judah and Israel.

It's like you get it but you don't get it.

Those verses haven't been fulfilled because the Mashiach hasn't come yet.

Well done.

rosends · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Then of whom is Micah 5:2 speaking?

'But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in lsrael; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting'.

We know that Jesse came from Bethlehem, and that it was the royal city of David. So, why do you not believe that the Messiah, the son of David, will be born there?

David is from there and from that line a messiah will come. Not from the city. Was Bar Kochva born there? People a long time ago seemed not to think the messiah would come from there. This is clearly a later expectation.

Redemptionsong · Oct 19, 2021

Rival said:
It's like you get it but you don't get it.

Those verses haven't been fulfilled because the Mashiach hasn't come yet.

Well done.

I don't think you get it. If Jesus is the 'suffering servant' who dies to free prisoners from sin, then he must also be the Son of man who returns to judge the world.

Listen again to Isaiah 61.
'The spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn'.

The acceptable year is when slaves are given their freedom (the jubilee year). This is what Jesus accomplished through the cross.

The 'day of vengeance' is the day of judgement for the enemies of God. It's also the day of mourning for Jerusalem. [See Zechariah 12:11 in context]

Why do you think Jerusalem and the house of David are mourning?

Redemptionsong · Oct 19, 2021

rosends said:
David is from there and from that line a messiah will come. Not from the city. Was Bar Kochva born there? People a long time ago seemed not to think the messiah would come from there. This is clearly a later expectation.

The leader of Israel mentioned here is 'from everlasting'. Therefore he is more than an ordinary individual. However, from a purely royal perspective, Bethlehem must have been considered a place of birth for the one called 'My servant David'. This is what Psalm 132 says:
'Until l find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob.
Lo, we heard of it at Ephratah: we found it in the fields of the wood'.

Although called a 'city' in later times, Bethlehem was no more than a village when the Babylonian captivity ended. In Ezra 2:21 we are told that 123 men returned to Bethlehem from Babylon. It was amongst the 'thousands'.

rosends · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The leader of Israel mentioned here is 'from everlasting'.

Here is the Hebrew of 5:1-2
וְאַתָּ֞ה בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶם אֶפְרָ֗תָה צָעִיר֙ לִֽהְיוֹת֙ בְּאַלְפֵ֣י יְהוּדָ֔ה מִמְּךָ֙ לִ֣י יֵצֵ֔א לִֽהְי֥וֹת מוֹשֵׁ֖ל בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וּמוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו מִקֶּ֖דֶם מִימֵ֥י עוֹלָֽם׃
לָכֵ֣ן יִתְּנֵ֔ם עַד־עֵ֥ת יוֹלֵדָ֖ה יָלָ֑דָה וְיֶ֣תֶר אֶחָ֔יו יְשׁוּב֖וּן עַל־בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃

Can you show me where the "from everlasting" is and show me how it applies to the person, especially as it relates to the word "וּמוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו". I sense you have a completely mistaken understanding of these verses.

Redemptionsong said:
Therefore he is more than an ordinary individual.

Yup...mistaken.

Redemptionsong said:
However, from a purely royal perspective, Bethlehem must have been considered a place of birth for the one called 'My servant David'. This is what Psalm 132 says:
'Until l find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob.
Lo, we heard of it at Ephratah: we found it in the fields of the wood'.

Although called a 'city' in later times, Bethlehem was no more than a village when the Babylonian captivity ended. In Ezra 2:21 we are told that 123 men returned to Bethlehem from Babylon. It was amongst the 'thousands'.

Yes, Rashi explains this with sources:
"And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah—whence David emanated, as it is stated (I Sam. 17:58): “The son of your bondsman, Jesse the Bethlehemite.” And Bethlehem is called Ephrath, as it is said (Gen. 48: 7): “On the road to Ephrath, that is Bethlehem.”"

Redemptionsong · Oct 19, 2021

rosends said:
Here is the Hebrew of 5:1-2
וְאַתָּ֞ה בֵּֽית־לֶ֣חֶם אֶפְרָ֗תָה צָעִיר֙ לִֽהְיוֹת֙ בְּאַלְפֵ֣י יְהוּדָ֔ה מִמְּךָ֙ לִ֣י יֵצֵ֔א לִֽהְי֥וֹת מוֹשֵׁ֖ל בְּיִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל וּמוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו מִקֶּ֖דֶם מִימֵ֥י עוֹלָֽם׃
לָכֵ֣ן יִתְּנֵ֔ם עַד־עֵ֥ת יוֹלֵדָ֖ה יָלָ֑דָה וְיֶ֣תֶר אֶחָ֔יו יְשׁוּב֖וּן עַל־בְּנֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵֽל׃

Can you show me where the "from everlasting" is and show me how it applies to the person, especially as it relates to the word "וּמוֹצָאֹתָ֥יו". I sense you have a completely mistaken understanding of these verses.

Yup...mistaken.

Yes, Rashi explains this with sources:
"And you, Bethlehem Ephrathah—whence David emanated, as it is stated (I Sam. 17:58): “The son of your bondsman, Jesse the Bethlehemite.” And Bethlehem is called Ephrath, as it is said (Gen. 48: 7): “On the road to Ephrath, that is Bethlehem.”"

The JPS, verse 1, reads:
'And you, O Bethlehem of Ephrath,
Least amongst the clans of Judah,
From you one shall come forth
To rule lsrael for Me -
One whose origin is from of old,
From ancient times.
Verse 2.
Truly, He will leave them [helpless]
Until she who is to bear has borne,
Then the rest of his countrymen
Shall return to the children of lsrael.

Since the birth pangs are associated with the coming of the Messiah, it's important to distinguish between 'Truly, He will leave them' and 'Until...' This gap is occupied by a period of time, unspecified in the text. Yet the passage is in agreement with all the other prophets who see the suffering servant role distinguished from the Messianic role.

Hosea 5:15 [JPS] says, 'And l [God] will return to My abode - Till they realize their guilt'. These words were directed at Ephraim and at the house of Judah.

What, therefore, has Judah done to offend God?

I believe that 'the rest of his countrymen' refers to the Jews, and the children of Israel are those who have found Christ, who is Israel [Ephraim].

Redemptionsong · Oct 19, 2021

Have you also noticed the connection between Hosea 5:14 and Psalm 22:14-17? [JPS]

rosends · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The JPS, verse 1, reads:
'And you, O Bethlehem of Ephrath,
Least amongst the clans of Judah,
From you one shall come forth
To rule lsrael for Me -
One whose origin is from of old,
From ancient times.
Verse 2.
Truly, He will leave them [helpless]
Until she who is to bear has borne,
Then the rest of his countrymen
Shall return to the children of lsrael.

OK, so according to that quote, "Bethlehem of Ephrath is the least among clans, and not a city. So there is no reason to believe, according to the translation you chose, that the future messiah will come from a particular city. Thank you.

Redemptionsong said:
Since the birth pangs are associated with the coming of the Messiah, it's important to distinguish between 'Truly, He will leave them' and 'Until...' This gap is occupied by a period of time, unspecified in the text. Yet the passage is in agreement with all the other prophets who see the suffering servant role distinguished from the Messianic role.

The gap is, according to some, hinted to in the text, actually. Nothing in this mentions the "suffering servant" maybe because this is talking about the messiah.

Redemptionsong said:
Hosea 5:15 [JPS] says, 'And l [God] will return to My abode - Till they realize their guilt'. These words were directed at Ephraim and at the house of Judah.

What, therefore, has Judah done to offend God?

Did you not read verse 10? Though it was possibly also idolatry.

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Are Jews (as 'Israel') correct in claiming to be the 'My [God's] servant' ? [Isaiah 42:1];

[JPS] 'This is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one, in whom I delight. I have put my spirit upon him,
He shall teach the true way to the nations'/

[KJV] 'Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles'

Is this a future hope for national Israel? If so, it must occur after the Gentiles have been taught the 'true way' (by the Church). Do Jews have the 'spirit upon him'?

Isaiah 59:21. [JPS] 'And this shall be My covenant with them, saith the LORD: My spirit which is upon you, and the words which I have placed in your mouth, shall not be absent from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your children, nor from the mouth of your children's children - saith the LORD - from now on, for all time'.

[KJV] 'As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever'.

IMO, the new covenant is, therefore, the covenant of GOD'S SPIRIT, the Spirit of Christ. Israel, the true body of Christ, lives in the way of 'spirit and truth'.

As John the Baptist said, 'I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost'.[Mark 1:8]

And as Paul asked [Acts 19], 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed'?

'And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied'.[verse 6]

IndigoChild5559 · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Are Jews (as 'Israel') correct in claiming to be the 'My [God's] servant' ? [Isaiah 42:1];

[JPS] 'This is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one, in whom I delight. I have put my spirit upon him,
He shall teach the true way to the nations'/

[KJV] 'Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles'

Is this a future hope for national Israel? If so, it must occur after the Gentiles have been taught the 'true way' (by the Church). Do Jews have the 'spirit upon him'?

Isaiah 59:21. [JPS] 'And this shall be My covenant with them, saith the LORD: My spirit which is upon you, and the words which I have placed in your mouth, shall not be absent from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your children, nor from the mouth of your children's children - saith the LORD - from now on, for all time'.

[KJV] 'As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever'.

IMO, the new covenant is, therefore, the covenant of GOD'S SPIRIT, the Spirit of Christ. Israel, the true body of Christ, lives in the way of 'spirit and truth'.

As John the Baptist said, 'I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost'.[Mark 1:8]

And as Paul asked [Acts 19], 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed'?

'And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied'.[verse 6]

But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend
Isaiah 41:8

2ndpillar · Oct 19, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
I agree with this, but only in the light of the spirit. Christ, 'my Servant David', is the king, and all in Christ will be saved. This means that both sticks, lsrael and Judah, become one in Christ.

But who, exactly, is the stick 'lsrael' if they are now scattered amongst the nations without a 'Hebrew' identity? Are these people not Christians?

Judah, to whom the Messiah first came, will be the last to receive Christ, and that will be at his coming again. As l see it.

Whereas there may well be "Christians" among the lost tribes of Israel, they apparently have not had My Law written in their hearts, and as a part of Jacob, have not as yet experienced "Jacob's distress" (Jeremiah 30:7), whereas Israel will be "chastened justly" (Jeremiah 30:11), and the nations/Gentiles destroyed. After that, Israel will be gathered out of the nations and joined to Judah on the land given to Jacob under My servant David (Ezekiel 36 &37). At this time, only Judah lives on the land given to Jacob, and the lost tribes remain lost, and do not at this time keep my ordinances (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The nations have yet to be all crushed at the same time, and replaced by the kingdom (Daniel 2:44-45). The Gentiles seem to have followed the path of the tare seed, the road of lawlessness/wickedness, and are looking at the furnace of fire (Matthew 13:25 & 49-50).

74x12 · Oct 20, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
Are Jews (as 'Israel') correct in claiming to be the 'My [God's] servant' ? [Isaiah 42:1];

[JPS] 'This is My servant, whom I uphold, My chosen one, in whom I delight. I have put my spirit upon him,
He shall teach the true way to the nations'/

[KJV] 'Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles'

Is this a future hope for national Israel? If so, it must occur after the Gentiles have been taught the 'true way' (by the Church). Do Jews have the 'spirit upon him'?

Isaiah 59:21. [JPS] 'And this shall be My covenant with them, saith the LORD: My spirit which is upon you, and the words which I have placed in your mouth, shall not be absent from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your children, nor from the mouth of your children's children - saith the LORD - from now on, for all time'.

[KJV] 'As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever'.

IMO, the new covenant is, therefore, the covenant of GOD'S SPIRIT, the Spirit of Christ. Israel, the true body of Christ, lives in the way of 'spirit and truth'.

As John the Baptist said, 'I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost'.[Mark 1:8]

And as Paul asked [Acts 19], 'Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed'?

'And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied'.[verse 6]

The confusion is cleared up by understanding the resurrection is the new Covenant. Jesus is the beginning the firstborn from the dead. This is why he is the real Israel. The one that lives forever. Jacob died but in Jesus he will live again.

The new covenant(resurrection power) begins within through the baptism of the holy Spirit which is the same Spirit that raised Jesus back to life.

Israel, the Servant of God

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se Dex me saut.

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se Dex me saut.

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Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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