European Christian Heritage

exchemist said:

You have no idea what level of expenditure you would be agreeing to. And you do not speak for everyone who pays tax.

If Bozo were to announce a huge programme on maintaining all the empty parish churches, the outcry would be immediate and from all sides: "How many people die every day in the NHS that could be saved with this money?" "What about collapsing school buildings?", "Why isn't this being spent on the police, to prevent another Sarah Everard murder?" etc., etc.

And those questions would be rather good ones.

In Britain the state does give grants for the upkeep of buildings of outstanding historical or architectural significance, and that keeps most of our great cathedrals from falling down. But there has to be a limit to the largesse.

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I would argue that we abolish things like the BBC license, allowing politicians et al. to give themselves huge raises, sending funds to various countries for aid that has never helped, and so on. We could funnel that into those schools and what not.

Charity starts at home, essentially.

An easier way would be for Europeans to get their bums back on pews and voluntarily pay for upkeep, along with royal grants from the Queen's huge coffers she pretends not to have and all the money hidden in Swiss banks, but that's just me

Rival said:

I would argue that we abolish things like the BBC license, allowing politicians et al. to give themselves huge raises, sending funds to various countries for aid that has never helped, and so on. We could funnel that into those schools and what not.

Charity starts at home, essentially.

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The charities I support help the lives of people, not animals, and not buildings.

exchemist said:

The charities I support help the lives of people, not animals, and not buildings.

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Okay.

I like the buildings though.

Rival said:

An easier way would be for Europeans to get their bums back on pews and voluntarily pay for upkeep, along with royal grants from the Queen's huge coffers she pretends not to have and all the money hidden in Swiss banks, but that's just me

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Exactly. That's just you.

Rival said:

Okay.

I like the buildings though.

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And so do I. I make my donations whenever I visit an old church and I'm sad when one closes. But I also face facts.

exchemist said:

Exactly. That's just you.

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You know I wish I lived in a Jewish fundamentalist space

But Europeans just don't seem to materialise much religiosity and, looking at pretty much the rest of the world, this is odd for human societies and I don't get it at all. Being a highly religious person in this environment is... well, it is upsetting and apparently for me that even extends to Christianity, which my faith blatantly opposes. It's perplexing to me that so many folks can just drop it.

exchemist said:

And so do I. I make my donations whenever I visit an old church and I'm sad when one closes. But I also face facts.

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I am trying to make Europeans face these facts, kind of the point of the thread really. It's just, what to do?

Rival said:

Yes, but the idea of Europe as a unified entity was borne of Christianity. There was no concept of 'I'm a European' in the Pagan Era.

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So, tell me when exactly Europe was unified? The Romans did a pretty good job.

Rival said:

I think folks are focusing a lot on the burning, which may be my fault.

I'm just sad at the loss of and lack of care for churches in general and surprised at the apathy I see about it.

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Well secularism will do that, I guess.
I mean outside of the hyper religious, even most Christians I know are sort of indifferent to Churches. Maybe that’s to do with the pandemic to be fair.
But I mean. Yeah if you told me tomorrow that this was happening in my country I don’t think I’d care. Outside of “oh that shouldn’t happen.” I would never in a million years connect such a phenomenon to losing any heritage, cultural or otherwise.
Because well I still have my cultural heritage with or without churches. That includes my European side. I have entire shelves dedicated to celebrating European art, just for example

So unless all these churches are listed as heritage sites or have otherwise striking architectural features displaying history, I still fail to see the connection

Wandering Monk said:

So, tell me when exactly Europe was unified? The Romans did a pretty good job.

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There's not a treaty or formal agreement. It's a mindset, a cultural conception in the same way a nation evolves, through shared language, belief, practices and so on. To those people, Europe was the Christian side of the Europe-Asia divide and they defined themselves as such.

While I am an atheist, I have visited a great many religious venues -- cathedrals, churches, mosques, temples, mandirs and more. And I have always done so respectfully -- when I'm asked to remove my shoes, of course I do, or to be quiet during a service, why would I not?

Why would I visit such places? They are the result of much what drives human culture: rich storehouses of the arts that speak to the sheer humanity of man. And I am interested in man.

I could never countenance the destruction of such a place. My religious disbelief has nothing whatever to do with my respect for what those establishments mean to the people who built them, paid for them, maintain them -- and love them.

Rival said:

Please stand up for your heritage, Europe! What is wrong with you?

If someone were burning all the synagogues and mosques it'd be an outcry, but churches? That's fine. The state and the people will do nothing.

I'm not a Christian and this upsets me. Get your act together, Europe.

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While I'm a big fan of church buildings and I agree that they are part of our heritage (there's a cathedral in my home city that's been in place in some fashion for over 800 years), aren't they owned by organisations with bajillions of pounds who could be looking after them?

Rival said:

Please stand up for your heritage, Europe! What is wrong with you?

If someone were burning all the synagogues and mosques it'd be an outcry, but churches? That's fine. The state and the people will do nothing.

I'm not a Christian and this upsets me. Get your act together, Europe.

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This is my European Christian heritage:



17,000 Royal Black members on the march for 'Last Saturday' celebration

I think that European Christianity is better off without my heritage, frankly.

Jaiket said:

aren't they owned by organisations with bajillions of pounds who could be looking after them?

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It varies by country but in short the answer is 'maybe', plus it depends on the denomination and the willingness of any authority that does own them to actually upkeep them. As we see in France, they are owned by a certain body which should pay for them, it just doesn't. This is why I'm complaining that they don't care.

This state of affairs is partly explained by the fact that, by virtue of the 1905 law on the Separation of the Churches and the State, municipalities became the owners of France’s religious buildings. In many cases, they have been unable to meet the costs of maintaining the sites.

“These buildings have not been maintained for over a century, and they have never been subject to restoration work or protection measures against theft or fire,” Lamaze said.

He explained that only 15,000 Catholic sites are officially protected as historical monuments, while the other 30,000 buildings are practically left to decay.

I'm suspicious that 'they have been unable to meet the costs' considering they have been in the hands of these organisations for over 100 years.

Rival said:

Is being ruined.

One religious building is disappearing in France every two weeks.

That is the conclusion of Edouard de Lamaze, president of the Observatoire du patrimoine religieux (Observatory of Religious Heritage) in Paris.

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Lamaze told CNA in an interview that in addition to one religious building disappearing every two weeks -- by demolition, transformation, destruction by fire, or collapse -- two-thirds of fires in religious buildings are due to arson.

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“Although Catholic monuments are still ahead, one mosque is erected every 15 days in France, while one Christian building is destroyed at the same pace,” Lamaze said. “It creates a tipping point on the territory that should be taken into account.”

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According to the most recent figures from France’s central criminal intelligence unit, 877 attacks on Catholic places of worship were recorded across the country in 2018 alone.

“These figures have increased fivefold in only 10 years,” Lamaze said, noting that 129 churches were vandalized in 2008.

Why France is losing one religious building every two weeks

More than 10 churches a year are closing in Wales, figures have shown.

Data from the Church in Wales showed 115 Anglican churches have closed over a 10-year period, about 8% of the total, with 1,319 still in use.

110 Anglican churches closed in Wales in 10 years

C of E bishop warns of church closures due to Covid financial losses

Please stand up for your heritage, Europe! What is wrong with you?

If someone were burning all the synagogues and mosques it'd be an outcry, but churches? That's fine. The state and the people will do nothing.

I'm not a Christian and this upsets me. Get your act together, Europe.

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Europe is Christian in name only and has been for a long time. Most people are not Christian there and they only use the church for marrying and burying.

Thirza Fallen said:

Europe is Christian in name only and has been for a long time. Most people are not Christian there and they only use the church for marrying and burying.

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I know, I live here. It saddens me.

I don't know, when I think of Europe, I think of Stonehenge, and the images on the Gundestrup Cauldron, and the natural images that come to mind in 'The Life of Merlin.' That is a story about a man who escapes into the Caledonion forest, away from the works of any man, to ride a reindeer. It is an animist vision. Though I see your point, I read a large book once on medieval architecture, and the structures are beautiful

Perhaps all of that is slightly beside the point, though maybe not. I see that no matter what is torn down, no matter what changes, humans cannot change the foundations of heaven. Heaven, in a universal understanding of it, is, I think, built with structures that are made of real spiritual truth. It was always there. The human intellect, and the physical things it builds; what it thinks, seem like sandcastles

People build high buildings, and they are wondrous to behold, but the greatest thing of all, that biology built, was the mere soil. It is built of everything that ever lived. And it will recycle any brick, that a man can apply upon it. On it, you can smell the living blood of the future, and on it, remember the bones of the dreams of the past. People spin material, and by the soil, eaten it is and recycled. We should worry not, instead save ourselves, and just watch it spin

Rival said:

I know, I live here. It saddens me.

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Why? Do you think they are missing out on something?

Thirza Fallen said:

Why? Do you think they are missing out on something?

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I think they are losing a part of their cultural identity and connexion with their history, throwing it away as though it never mattered or is something to be ashamed of. Obviously as a religious person I would say they're missing out, but it also makes it harder for me and the few other religious people to fit in socially and politically.