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European Christian Heritage

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And now, please start argueing that Marxism is a liberal capitalist school of thought with a straight face.

Well, Britain's industrial revolution and enclosure acts against common agricultural land were the blueprints for the Soviet's industrialisation and collectivisation policies. The Ukrainian famine in 1931 was basically a carbon copy of the Irish Potato famine in the 1840s because both Britain and the USSR exported agricultural produce to fund industrialisation when it could have fed people at home. Soviet bureaucrats visited London's shopping centres to come up with the designs for marketing consumer goods in the 1930's. The Soviets adopted more market based approaches under the New Economic Policy, the Khrushchev reforms in the 1950s and Perestroika in the 1980s. And the Communist Party in China adoption of market economics transformed the country in recent decades.

Marxists can handle recognising the value of the past and trying to preserve it whilst believing we should improve on it. Communists weren't afraid to borrow Nazi designs for the V2 to design missiles and spacecraft, put satellites and dogs in space with Newtonian mechanics, built the atom bomb with Einstein's theory of relativity (and a fair amount of espionage), published, read and performed the collected works of Shakespeare in Soviet theatres, and Lenin was embalmed because of the craze for mummification after the discovery of Tutankhamen tomb in Egypt in 1922.

So- to get back to the thread- you can preserve cultural and historical works, monuments and sites, like Churches, without opposing them based on their social or ideological origins. It would be nihilistic not to try and preserve the past.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
So if European was not always Christian, we could change again. Okay, nothing wrong with that as such. That is how cultures change over time.
No, the concept of Europe as a unified political entity and perception even as a continent district from Asia is a Christian conception. You can't divorce the concept of Europe as an entity from Christianity.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I just think, despite modern spiritual changes, some things ought to be preserved, such as we try preserving ancient Egyptian architecture and statues, for example. I would argue we should rebuild various ancient Greek and Roman buildings such as the Colosseum, too. There are some things that are precious and above such cultural changes.

Yes, I agree. I think the devil will be in the details of what "some" means.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No, the concept of Europe as a unified political entity and perception even as a continent district from Asia is a Christian conception. You can't divorce the concept of Europe as an entity from Christianity.

Sure, but Europa is not just Christianity. It is in part that.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Well no one should be burning down any Churches. But loss of cultural heritage is a bit of a stretch. Unless all the burned down Churches were recognised as Cultural Heritage sites?
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Well no one should be burning down any Churches. But loss of cultural heritage is a bit of a stretch. Unless all the burned down Churches were recognised as Cultural Heritage sites?
I think folks are focusing a lot on the burning, which may be my fault.

I'm just sad at the loss of and lack of care for churches in general and surprised at the apathy I see about it.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
For what it's worth, I have so far never seen that happening where I live. In fact, what usually happens, since the Church is the owner, they have the power to block anybody from repurposing these decrepit old buildings and renovate them for a new purpose, instead leaving them standing empty and unused.

(In my opinion, this happens rarely to begin with, and is usually due to rural communities shrinking to the point where they can no longer sustain their small village churches, or to modern churches being built for communities to leave the old ones abandoned. I have literally never seen or heard of a church destroyed where I live, not at any point in my life.)

Remind me where you live?
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
AFAIK though, this began before Christianity really took off. IIRC many temples and schools had already closed, hence why a lot of folks took so readily to Christianity in the first place. I'm not arguing that demolishing them was right, but musing aloud that the Pagans themselves, as with the Europeans and their churches now, stopped caring. The Mithra worshippers appeared to voluntarily leave their temples, as many are preserved and have not been defaced (some have Christian graffiti) ; they appear to have just been abandoned.

Considering the diversity of religions, this could be true in some cases, but certainly not always. For instance, Donar's Oak in Germany and Pope Gregory 1 decreeing that Pagan sites be replaced by Christian altars.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I'd have no issue donating.

I just want to know why the rest of the Europeans fail to care.
It's not failing to care. It's simply a question of scale, cost and practicality. There are gazillions of churches all over Western Europe, dating from an era when everyone went to church and felt obliged to donate to their upkeep. That no longer applies.

There is no justification for the average non-churchgoing taxpayer to stump up unlimited funds for the upkeep of thousands of redundant church buildings as empty museums.
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
Considering the diversity of religions, this could be true in some cases, but certainly not always. For instance, Donar's Oak in Germany and Pope Gregory 1 decreeing that Pagan sites be replaced by Christian altars.
He did, but I'm probably exclusively talking about Greco-Roman Pagan traditions, as Judaism and possibly Zoroastrianism had begun having big impacts on them. I couldn't point you to any sources, but it appears monotheism, not any particular religion associated therewith prior to Christianity, was already on the rise in these areas. It would be another reason why Christianity was so popular so early. Paganism came with a lot of built-in social inequalities in Greece and Rome, which I can imagine many wanted abolished - and these are the groups we see turning to Christianity first: slaves, women, outcasts etc.
 
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Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
There is no justification for the average non-churchgoing taxpayer to stump up unlimited funds for the upkeep of thousands of redundant church buildings as empty museums.
I guess we just disagree here. I argue against Christians non-stop on here and would agree to that tax so I dunno, maybe it's just me. I often find myself at odds with common beliefs and views in Europe :D
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No it isn't. Whether you like it or not if you live in Europe and have European ancestry your heritage is Christianity. You don't get to change that because you don't like it. What do you think will happen when all the churches are closed? Mass atheism? I doubt it.

Your OP reminded my of part of a quote where Europe is mentioned.

Personally I see the earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.

It is all falling apart, but there is hope.

This is that part of a quote;

".... Ere long shall the clamor of the multitude throughout Africa, throughout America, the cry of the European and of the Turk, the groaning of India and China, be heard from far and near. One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause. Then shall the knights of the Lord, assisted by His grace from on high, strengthened by faith, aided by the power of understanding, and reinforced by the legions of the Covenant, arise and make manifest the truth of the verse: ‘Behold the confusion that hath befallen the tribes of the defeated!’”

Basically I see we are at the beginning of a great transition in human affairs.

Regards Tony
 

Laika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It's not failing to care. It's simply a question of scale, cost and practicality. There are gazillions of churches all over Western Europe, dating from an era when everyone went to church and felt obliged to donate to their upkeep. That no longer applies.

There is no justification for the average non-churchgoing taxpayer to stump up unlimited funds for the upkeep of thousands of redundant church buildings as empty museums.

Whilst I take your point and there is always going to be a finite amount of resources for conservation and preservation to go round, we bailout failing banks and throw money at defence companies like their is no tomorrow. The Space Program, as brilliant and inspirational as it was as an investment in science and technology, did become a vanity project once it got beyond the immediate goal of developing better missiles.

I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea of state subsidies or a "bailout" for Christianity as a whole because that sounds like treating it as an established church getting preferential treatment by the state. But if these buildings ceased to be places of religious worship, became public property, perhaps rented out to different businesses or groups with conditions on how they are used and were invested in and maintained for preservation, I wouldn't really object. It comes down to a question of prioritises in the end. Given the history, the art and the architecture, Churches would make great spaces for art galleries and museums for example.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
I guess we just disagree here. I argue against Christians non-stop on here and would agree to that tax so I dunno, maybe it's just me. I often find myself at odds with common beliefs and views in Europe :D
You have no idea what level of expenditure you would be agreeing to. And you do not speak for everyone who pays tax.

If Bozo were to announce a huge programme on maintaining all the empty parish churches, the outcry would be immediate and from all sides: "How many people die every day in the NHS that could be saved with this money?" "What about collapsing school buildings?", "Why isn't this being spent on the police, to prevent another Sarah Everard murder?" etc., etc.

And those questions would be rather good ones.

In Britain the state does give grants for the upkeep of buildings of outstanding historical or architectural significance, and that keeps most of our great cathedrals from falling down. But there has to be a limit to the largesse.
 
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