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European Christian Heritage

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
These are happening in France, not the UK.

Even if it is accidents, or just acts of vandalism, someone with the authority should at least try making sure it happens much less often. That's really all I'm arguing for here and I feel as though I'm being blasted for caring. I wasn't blaming anyone, wasn't complaining about anyone, just found it sad that this is happening and that it's not regularly reported and no-one seems to care. I get Europe is mostly atheistic, especially the UK and much of western Europe in general, but even as a non-Christian it deeply saddens me that folks are just shrugging off 1,500+ years of history so easily. I mean, all I mostly do on here is debate with Christians. They must think I hate them. I said something kind of good about Christianity and this is the result. I just don't get it.

Well, I do get you. The problem is how you represent what makes Europa Europa. And how you had to include Islam. If France choose to ignore the church burnings, the European cultural rule is, that we let them.
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
How is the number of mosques in Europe relevant to a thread ostensibly about churches?
It was to highlight the stark contrast between them. Just how many churches this is happening to. I didn't mean anything nefarious. I'm glad Muslims have such strong faith they need more mosques. I wish Europeans had that with Christianity :shrug:
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
It was to highlight the stark contrast between them. Just how many churches this is happening to. I didn't mean anything nefarious. I'm glad Muslims have such strong faith they need more mosques. I wish Europeans had that with Christianity :shrug:
The Muslims in question are Europeans, even if you insist that they are not.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
These are happening in France, not the UK.

Ah, apologies.

Even if it is accidents, or just acts of vandalism, someone with the authority should at least try making sure it happens much less often. That's really all I'm arguing for here and I feel as though I'm being blasted for caring. I wasn't blaming anyone, wasn't complaining about anyone, just found it sad that this is happening and that it's not regularly reported and no-one seems to care.

I can understand that. As someone who is a fan of history, not to mention religious studies, I too would be sad to see very old, historic beautiful churches burned down by arsonists. I don't think anyone here is defending that.

I think the issue is with a defense of "heritage" simply because it is heritage. Alcoholism is part of my heritage. But I'm not particularly keen on embracing or maintaining a tie to that aspect of my heritage. In my view, there are aspects of our Christian heritage that are lovely, and aspects that are awful. Given that Western Europeans are vastly less religious than they once were, it makes sense to me that they are tearing down or repurposing churches for other things they are now interested in.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
You are deliberately failing to grasp this.
No, I think we have a pretty good grasp on the fact that you want to talk exclusively about churches, not European heritage, history or culture.

What I think bothers me and Mikkel is that you frame this narrow focus as a concern over European heritage and culture, when it is nothing of the sort.

EDIT: Mikkel already said it better and more concisely!
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Ah, apologies.



I can understand that. As someone who is a fan of history, not to mention religious studies, I too would be sad to see very old, historic beautiful churches burned down by arsonists. I don't think anyone here is defending that.

I think the issue is with a defense of "heritage" simply because it is heritage. Alcoholism is part of my heritage. But I'm not particularly keen on embracing or maintaining a tie to that aspect of my heritage. In my view, there are aspects of our Christian heritage that are lovely, and aspects that are awful. Given that Western Europeans are vastly less religious than they once were, it makes sense to me that they are tearing down or repurposing churches for other things they are now interested in.
I just think, despite modern spiritual changes, some things ought to be preserved, such as we try preserving ancient Egyptian architecture and statues, for example. I would argue we should rebuild various ancient Greek and Roman buildings such as the Colosseum, too. There are some things that are precious and above such cultural changes.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I just think, despite modern spiritual changes, some things ought to be preserved, such as we try preserving ancient Egyptian architecture and statues, for example. I would argue we should rebuild various ancient Greek and Roman buildings such as the Colosseum, too. There are some things that are precious and above such cultural changes.

Yes, but that is not your choice alone. Nor it is mine alone.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
It's not to please me. It's to please your ancestors who are crying out from beyond about what has happened the the nations they built. It's about Europe as a concept, a heritage, a thing unto itself. I'm not asking you to do it for me, I'm asking you to do it for you and your people, your children's children and their heritage.

I usually don't like the idea of history being demolished (with some exceptions usually involving the American Civil War). But since some of my ancestors were pagans who had to watch their religion replaced and their cultural sites demolished, I find the heritage appeal difficult to get behind.

There's every possibility that congregants of the Great Council of Cthulu will be burning mosques in a few hundred years with Europeans making the same heritage argument.

At any rate, the churches shouldn't just be demolished.
 

Kooky

Freedom from Sanity
Given that Western Europeans are vastly less religious than they once were, it makes sense to me that they are tearing down or repurposing churches for other things they are now interested in.
For what it's worth, I have so far never seen that happening where I live. In fact, what usually happens, since the Church is the owner, they have the power to block anybody from repurposing these decrepit old buildings and renovate them for a new purpose, instead leaving them standing empty and unused.

(In my opinion, this happens rarely to begin with, and is usually due to rural communities shrinking to the point where they can no longer sustain their small village churches, or to modern churches being built for communities to leave the old ones abandoned. I have literally never seen or heard of a church destroyed where I live, not at any point in my life.)
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
But since some of my ancestors were pagans who had to watch their religion replaced and their cultural sites demolished, I find the heritage appeal difficult to get behind.
AFAIK though, this began before Christianity really took off. IIRC many temples and schools had already closed, hence why a lot of folks took so readily to Christianity in the first place. I'm not arguing that demolishing them was right, but musing aloud that the Pagans themselves, as with the Europeans and their churches now, stopped caring. The Mithra worshippers appeared to voluntarily leave their temples, as many are preserved and have not been defaced (some have Christian graffiti) ; they appear to have just been abandoned.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Is being ruined.

One religious building is disappearing in France every two weeks.

That is the conclusion of Edouard de Lamaze, president of the Observatoire du patrimoine religieux (Observatory of Religious Heritage) in Paris.


[...]

Lamaze told CNA in an interview that in addition to one religious building disappearing every two weeks -- by demolition, transformation, destruction by fire, or collapse -- two-thirds of fires in religious buildings are due to arson.

[...]

“Although Catholic monuments are still ahead, one mosque is erected every 15 days in France, while one Christian building is destroyed at the same pace,” Lamaze said. “It creates a tipping point on the territory that should be taken into account.”


[...]

According to the most recent figures from France’s central criminal intelligence unit, 877 attacks on Catholic places of worship were recorded across the country in 2018 alone.

“These figures have increased fivefold in only 10 years,” Lamaze said, noting that 129 churches were vandalized in 2008.


Why France is losing one religious building every two weeks

More than 10 churches a year are closing in Wales, figures have shown.

Data from the Church in Wales showed 115 Anglican churches have closed over a 10-year period, about 8% of the total, with 1,319 still in use.


110 Anglican churches closed in Wales in 10 years

C of E bishop warns of church closures due to Covid financial losses

Please stand up for your heritage, Europe! What is wrong with you?

If someone were burning all the synagogues and mosques it'd be an outcry, but churches? That's fine. The state and the people will do nothing.

I'm not a Christian and this upsets me. Get your act together, Europe.
The fact is there is a limit to how many of these buildings can be sustained, given that most of the population does not go to church any more. Taxpayers won't support having their money spent on all of them. And by no means all of them are architectural gems.

St Ouen, by the way, which I love to visit when I go to Rouen, seems to be quite well looked after, even though it is no longer in use as a church.

No one is "burning all" the churches. They are closing mainly due to lack of church attendance.

And the bit about mosques in the article is irrelevant - and potentially a nasty dogwhistle. The muslim population of France is under-provided with mosques, so one would expect more to be built. That is a totally separate matter from the closure of churches, of which there are clearly far too many for the churchgoing population.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
AFAIK though, this began before Christianity really took off. IIRC many temples and schools had already closed, hence why a lot of folks took so readily to Christianity in the first place. I'm not arguing that demolishing them was right, but musing aloud that the Pagans themselves, as with the Europeans and their churches now, stopped caring. The Mithra worshippers appeared to voluntarily leave their temples, as many are preserved and have not been defaced (some have Christian graffiti) ; they appear to have just been abandoned.
So if European was not always Christian, we could change again. Okay, nothing wrong with that as such. That is how cultures change over time.
 
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