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Atheists have faith.

ecco

Veteran Member
View attachment 56709


Jesus in flesh was not God - Jesus is a name on one of the Mirrors

Jesus as Christ was all we can know of God - All we can know of God is the Ray's we see reflected from the Mirror

Jesus as Christ in no way defines God - The sun is not defined by the mirror or from the rays reflected from the mirror.

Jesus as Christ defines the attributes for us - the rays from the mirror are all we can know of God, they are the Holy Spirit.

God has never has decended into creation.

Regards Tony

The Bible disagrees with you.
https://goingfarther.net/common-questions/is-jesus-god/


He was both God’s Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9).
We do know that Jesus said He existed before Abraham (John 8:58). He claimed that He and His Father are one (John 10:30), and that He is equal with the Father (John 5:17-18).

Not only did He claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God. He said He has the authority to judge the nations (Matthew 25:31-46). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead (John 5:25-29) and to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7)—things only God can do (1 Samuel 2:6; Isaiah 43:25).
Once again, we see the beauty of religion and religious beliefs. If you don't like what divine scripture asserts, find a different Prophet/Messenger - even if that Prophet/Messenger believes in a completely different God.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Ecco only needs to advise where the motivation comes from, for virtue, moral and deeds for one's own self.
I've already done that several times. But, I'm not going to look through 26 pages of posts to find my comments.

My first response as to where humanity finds morals was "evolution". I'll stand by that. If you want to argue that animals do not have morals then there really is no point in discussing it further.
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
Can you prove that? If not, it is just a personal opinion, NOT a fact.

fact

something that is known to have happened or to exist, especially something for which proof exists, or about which there is information:


Here comes Trailblazer once again riding down the path or expecting "proof". Ridiculous.

Nevertheless, let me put it back on you. Can you prove that "everything" was not created last Thursday? No, you can't. So stop being silly.

Also, do you believe that Thor and Atlas were anything more than the creations of man's imaginings? There are two possibilities.

  1. Gods are real - all of them - Thor, Atlas, Shango, Allah, Shiva, Romulos and Remos, Ra, etc, etc, etc..
  2. Or, all these gods are the creations of man's imaginings.

I submit that there is more than enough information to conclude that all these gods, and thousands more, are not real gods. There, option 2 is the valid interpretation of the facts.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The Bible disagrees with you.
The Bible disagrees with you.

Jesus Is Not God – Bible Verses
Kermit Zarley
Most Christians believe that Jesus was and is God. That is what the institutional church has taught. Christians professedly rely strongly on the Bible for this belief. Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible which states unequivocally, “Jesus is God,” or the like. Moreover, the New Testament (NT) gospels have no statement by Jesus in which he identifies himself as God. In fact, there are many Bible verses which indicate that Jesus cannot be God by declaring that only the Father is God or by distinguishing Jesus from God. Three irrefutable texts in the NT declare both of these points.

Jesus Himself Teaches that Only the Father is God
First, and foremost, is one of Jesus’ sayings recorded only in the Gospel of John. The setting is the Last Supper, right before he was arrested and crucified. He prayed for his disciples, saying, “Father,… This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent” (John 17.3). So, Jesus says of the Father that he is “the only true God” and then distinguishes himself from that one God. Both of these points clearly indicate that Jesus himself cannot also be God.

There are two other times the Johannine Jesus identified the Father as the only God. Earlier, he told his Jewish opponents that the Father is “the one and only God” (John 5.44). And again, at the Last Supper, Jesus distinguished himself from this one and only God by commanding his disciples, “believe in God, believe also in Me” (14.1).

Paul Teaches that Only the Father is God
The other two NT passages which irrefutably establish that only the Father is God and distinguish Jesus from God are in Paul’s letters. He writes to the church at Corinth, “There is no God but one…. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him” (1 Corinthians 8.4, 6). Here, Paul clearly declares that for Christians there is one God, who is the Father, and there is no other God, so that Jesus is not God.

Many traditionalist scholars cite this passage to support that Jesus preexisted, thus concluding that he was God. Yet in doing so, they often ignore its double declaration that there is only one God, who is the Father. Even if Jesus did preexist, this does not prove that he was God. Second Temple Judaism regarded that some righteous men preexisted, and Jews did not conclude that such preexistence indicated that they actually were God/gods.

The third irrefutable NT text which establishes that there is God, who is the Father, and distinguishes Jesus from God is in Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. He writes, “There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all” (Eph 4.4-6). Here, Paul implicitly identifies Jesus Christ as “one Lord” and distinguishes him from the “one God,” whom he unequivocally identifies as “the Father.” Paul is a unique author of NT literature in that he exclusively and consistently calls Jesus “Lord” and the Father “God.” Therefore, he never calls Jesus “God.”

So, these three NT passages—John 17.3; 1 Corinthians 8.4, 6; and Ephesians 4.4-6—establish without any doubt that only the Father is God, so that Jesus cannot be God.

Other Witnesses That Only the Father is God
One of many other NT passages which confirm that Jesus is not God is his encounter with the rich young ruler. This man sincerely asked Jesus, “‘Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?’ And Jesus said to him, ‘Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone’” (Mark 10.17-18/Luke 18.18-19; cf. Matthew 19.16-17).

Many Christians have been confused by this saying, thinking that Jesus implies that he himself is not good. Yet the NT often declares that Jesus was such a righteous man that he never sinned (Acts 3.14; 2 Corinthians 5.21; Hebrews 4.15; 7.26; 2 Peter 2.22).

Then what did Jesus mean when he said, “no one is good but God alone”? In the OT, Judaism, and especially Hellenistic theism, only the one God was considered “good” in an absolute sense. This must be what Jesus meant in this encounter. Humans were called “good” only in a derived sense, with God being recognized as the Source of goodness.

Many NT passages show that Jesus was not God. For instance, the NT often declares that God sent Jesus, God was with Jesus in his mission, and God raised him from the dead. Peter preached about “Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst” (Acts 2.22). Peter later proclaimed about “Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with Him” (10.38).

In the salutations of all ten of Paul’s NT letters he identifies God as the Father, distinguishes God from Jesus Christ, and he never mentions the Holy Spirit. He typically writes, “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” This evidence further affirms that only the Father is God and that Jesus is not God.

Moreover, the Bible contains several verses which state unambiguously that Jesus had a God, and most say his God was the Father. When Jesus hung upon the cross he quoted Psalm 22.1, crying out to the Father, “MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME” (Matthew 27.46/Mark 15.34). The day Jesus was resurrected, he said to Mary Magdalene, “I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God” (John 20.17). And three times the Apostle Paul writes about “the God and Father of our/the Lord Jesus (Christ)” (Romans 15.6; 2 Corinthians 1.3; 11.31; cf. Ephesians 1.17). Finally, the heavenly Jesus is quoted five times saying “My God” (Revelation 3.2, 12; cf. 1.6).

The Verse that Made Me Think
The one verse that caused this author to first question whether Jesus is God is Jesus’ saying in his Olivet Discourse about the time of his return. He said, “But of that day and/or hour no one knows, not even the angels of/in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone” (Matthew 24.36/Mark 13.32). Since Jesus did not know the time of his return he could not have been God, for he reveals that God the Father did know it. Orthodox Christian theology has always insisted that God is omniscient, knowing everything, including everything about the future. Accordingly, Jesus could not have been God.

Jesus Is Not God - Bible Verses | 21st Century Reformation
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The Bible disagrees with you.
https://goingfarther.net/common-questions/is-jesus-god/


He was both God’s Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9).
We do know that Jesus said He existed before Abraham (John 8:58). He claimed that He and His Father are one (John 10:30), and that He is equal with the Father (John 5:17-18).

Not only did He claim to be God, but He also claimed to have the power of God. He said He has the authority to judge the nations (Matthew 25:31-46). He claims the authority to raise people from the dead (John 5:25-29) and to forgive sins (Mark 2:5-7)—things only God can do (1 Samuel 2:6; Isaiah 43:25).
Once again, we see the beauty of religion and religious beliefs. If you don't like what divine scripture asserts, find a different Prophet/Messenger - even if that Prophet/Messenger believes in a completely different God.

The Bible agrees with the Sun and Mirror analogy.

Some people are just yet to accept that this simple explanation and does contains all the wisdom.

No need to say more than that.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My first response as to where humanity finds morals was "evolution". I'll stand by that. If you want to argue that animals do not have morals then there really is no point in discussing it further.

I see there may be little point of discussion, I will add a comment.

Animals can and do display certain virtues but I suggest moral choices are limited in the animal kingdom.

Man alone has the unlimited ability of rational choices to moral and ethical virtue, that are not bound to nature, that can and do transcend the survival of the fittest.

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Not as ridiculous as atheists asking me to prove that God exists.

I understand why you do offer this, but at the same time I see that Abdul'baha as definitely offer proofs. The thing is, I guess he would only offer them to those that wanted to hear, those showing an interest.

Proofs of God

https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/abdul-baha/some-answered-questions/4#934192056

And

Proofs of Manifestation.

https://www.bahai.org/library/authoritative-texts/abdul-baha/some-answered-questions/4#340198067

Such a quandary when Truth is relative and we have no compulsion in religion.

I personally say there is ample proof for God, but it is relative to us accepting a certain level of spiritual capacity.

How do you see this?

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Is this actually for real? Clearly the author wouldn't know a proof if it slapped him in the face, and if proof had hands, it probably would. Literal LOL!

What is offers in that talk.is this.


"....These are theoretical arguments adduced for weak souls, but if the eye of inner vision be opened, a hundred thousand clear proofs will be seen. Thus, when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the grace of the spirit, it is necessary to set forth external arguments."
(Some Answered Questions)
www.bahai.org/r/584292313

That is a very reasonable and rational explanation, as every day I see the truths it contains unfold.

Regards Tony
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
"....These are theoretical arguments adduced for weak souls, but if the eye of inner vision be opened, a hundred thousand clear proofs will be seen. Thus, when man feels the indwelling spirit, he is in no need of arguments for its existence; but for those who are deprived of the grace of the spirit, it is necessary to set forth external arguments."

Pathetic excuse for poor reasoning. The arguments are irrational nonsense that rest on nothing but wishful thinking. Just take the first paragraph:-

Among the proofs and arguments for the existence of God is the fact that man has not created himself, but rather that his creator and fashioner is another than he. And it is certain and indisputable that the creator of man is not like man himself, because a powerless being cannot create another being, and an active creator must possess all perfections to produce his handiwork.
Talk about begging the question, and obviously written in ignorance of the science of evolution. We know what "fashioned" humans, and it wasn't by any means perfect.

And this is just pure comedy:-

Thus the contingent world is the source of deficiencies and God is the source of perfection. The very deficiencies of the contingent world testify to God’s perfections. For example, when you consider man, you observe that he is weak, and this very weakness of the creature betokens the power of One Who is Eternal and Almighty; for were it not for power, weakness could not be imagined. Thus the weakness of the creature is evidence of the power of God: Without power there could be no weakness. This weakness makes it evident that there is a power in the world.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Pathetic excuse for poor reasoning. The arguments are irrational nonsense that rest on nothing but wishful thinking. Just take the first paragraph:-

Among the proofs and arguments for the existence of God is the fact that man has not created himself, but rather that his creator and fashioner is another than he. And it is certain and indisputable that the creator of man is not like man himself, because a powerless being cannot create another being, and an active creator must possess all perfections to produce his handiwork.
Talk about begging the question, and obviously written in ignorance of the science of evolution. We know what "fashioned" humans, and it wasn't by any means perfect.

And this is just pure comedy:-

Thus the contingent world is the source of deficiencies and God is the source of perfection. The very deficiencies of the contingent world testify to God’s perfections. For example, when you consider man, you observe that he is weak, and this very weakness of the creature betokens the power of One Who is Eternal and Almighty; for were it not for power, weakness could not be imagined. Thus the weakness of the creature is evidence of the power of God: Without power there could be no weakness. This weakness makes it evident that there is a power in the world.

If that is the way you choose to see those passages outside of all else that is also offered, no issues from me.

I see what is offered contains a wisdom far beyond our puny fault finding minds.

That is the quandary of life.

Regards Tony
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
If that is the way you choose to see those passages...

It really isn't a choice. The 'arguments' are obviously flawed and go no way towards anything remotely like proof.
I see what is offered contains a wisdom far beyond our puny fault finding minds.

Trying to find fault is how we get towards the truth. That's why science tries its best to falsify its theories. Naive acceptance can easily lead to self-delusion.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It really isn't a choice. The 'arguments' are obviously flawed and go no way towards anything remotely like proof.

Trying to find fault is how we get towards the truth. That's why science tries its best to falsify its theories. Naive acceptance can easily lead to self-delusion.

The arguments are not flawed, our understanding of the topic can be.

First of all they are rational and logical proofs that are based in an understanding of what is the Spirit behind the human mind.

I see finding fault does not work when we are looking for spiritual proofs.

The Spirit that is God, is all perfections and all else is imperfections.

Where creation all comes from, is still not know, so in reality both science and religion have to have faith in what is truth.

All that we know is processed in a flesh brain that returns to dust, we can logically think of where this knowledge originated from, as science can only find it is external from the flesh brain.

I like the story of Brainman, the youtube link will only play on YouTube.


Regards Tony
 

wandering peacefully

Which way to the woods?
Personally I see all things in life are based in choice, people can say they do not choose to be an athiest until they are blue in the face, I will still offer I disagree, so let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

That really is not a Baha'i Faith stance, it is one I would take well before I was a Baha'i and did not practice any faith. I have always considered that there is intelligence design to creation.

I like the video of the fellow with amazing memory that sees numbers in shapes and confounds all the scientific theories about memory.

Brainman will have to be directed to YouTube.


You offered a lot of heated stuff in that reply, that personally I do not see has been offerd in this OP, nor was it the intent.

So hope you have got that off your chest?

;)

So you see that living the virtues shown in deeds is not born out of anything to do with faith, so that's great, I wish you all the best.

Regards Tony
Get if off my chest? There is nothing on my chest. Except the fact that I distrust and loathe other humans who are unable to be honest in their words and deeds. I see nothing but double speak and sticky sweet pretending from your type of believer. A narrow and narcissistic view of how superior you really are due to the irrational view that you all know everything there is to know about an unknown and hence forth unknowable God(s). You my friend, are the one who is blind to real knowledge because you only have faith and lack credibility due to your lack of understanding and lack of critical thinking skills.

Please stop providing such low hanging fruit.
 
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TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Get if off my chest? There is nothing on my chest. Except the fact that I distrust and loathe other humans who are unable to be honest in their words and deeds. I see nothing but double speak and sticky sweet pretending from your type of believer. A narrow and narcissistic view of how superior you really are due to the irrational view that you all know everything there is to know about an unknown and hence forth unknowable God(s). You my friend, are the one who is blind to real knowledge because you only have faith and lack credibility due to your lack of understanding and lack of critical thinking skills.

Please stop providing such low hanging fruit.

Well I see you cannot know how honest I am being, unless you know me and what I beleive.

It is also not about being superior, as that is not the aim of any virtue, moral or deed,they are about service, not superiority.

The reason for this OP is asking what motivates an athiest to virtue and moral actions and deeds, if it is not born from some connection to Faith?

What enables them to take on those virtues, morals and deeds?

All the best and Regards Tony
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Or you have not considered they were offered as logical and rational proofs.

I expected logical and rational proofs, and got a torrent of illogical unsupported blind faith.
The arguments are not flawed, our understanding of the topic can be.

I already pointed out the problem with the first and quoted another that made the absurd claim that imperfections point to a perfect creator.

Have you ever studied how to make a logical argument, because you (and the author) don't seem to even know the basics?
First of all they are rational and logical proofs that are based in an understanding of what is the Spirit behind the human mind.

Firstly, if this is the case, then it needs to be stated as a premiss (which I would object to because it's all but meaningless) or justify the existence of "the Spirit behind the human mind" and how it manages to turn illogical, obviously faith based (to the point of apparently not being able to even imagine how somebody without it might think) nonsense, into logic.
Where creation all comes from, is still not know, so in reality both science and religion have to have faith in what is truth.

Science is irrelevant and this is just an argument from ignorance fallacy. Us not knowing something does not make unsubstantiated storytelling any more believable.
All that we know is processed in a flesh brain that returns to dust, we can logically think of where this knowledge originated from, as science can only find it is external from the flesh brain.

The evidence tells us that the knowledge is stored in the 'flesh brain' and neural connections.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
He was both God’s Son (John 3:16) and God Himself—God in human flesh (1 Timothy 3:16). Yes, He was fully man, but He was also fully God (Colossians 2:9).

Christians professedly rely strongly on the Bible for this belief. Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible which states unequivocally, “Jesus is God,” or the like.

You make the effort to cut and paste a whole long wall of words to try to show that I am wrong. The author of your cut and paste states: "Yet there is not a single verse in the Bible which states unequivocally, “Jesus is God,” or the like."

All he and you had to do was look up one of the verses I cited...
Colossians 2:9
New International Version


9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
So, your cut and pasted author is just as ignorant of biblical verses as you are. And you both made the mistake of not bothering to do a little research.


Let's did a little deeper. You pasted...
Paul’s letters. He writes to the church at Corinth, “There is no God but one…. yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him”
The author's interpretation, and yours since you bothered to paste his argument, is interesting to say the least.

Carefully look at the phrasing...
"one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him "
one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him”
Paul is arguing there is only one deity, as compared to the many that were thought to be at the time. ONE!

He refers to this ONE as God and as Lord. He states "of/through whom are all things" about this ONE. He says about this ONE "and we exist for/through Him".

Paul makes it clear that they are one and the same.

Instead of just copy\pasting, use your own words to argue against Paul.
 
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Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The reason for this OP is asking what motivates an athiest to virtue and moral actions and deeds, if it is not born from some connection to Faith?

What enables them to take on those virtues, morals and deeds?
Nature + nurture, ie, we're genetically predisposed to
some behaviors, & we have culture in which we mature.
Thus we become who we are.
So I'm moral simply because I am...not because some
book or preacher says I must be. Nor is it the threat of
eternal damnation as punishment for immorality.
No faith required. Just personal tendency & preference.
 
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