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Dear Atheists, tell me what you DO believe

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Please see these two quote from you, both within the paragraph above:


Can you tell me how these two statements are reconciled? "I don't believe..." and "I only have beliefs?" I mean... maybe I am wrong and the "positive or negative version of the really real or not real" isn't a catch-all statement, and so there are some items left that one can have "only belief" in that aren't included in "positive or negative version of the really real or not real." Enlighten me - I'm all ears.

Here it is.
Replace the world/the universe/everything/realty with X and all variations of what they are with Y, Z, W and so on.
Now notice the following for humans who both claim to know what X is. I.e. X is Y and not Z versus X is Z and not Y. One of them don't know, so I figure out that I don't need to know what X really is and I don't need to believe in that I know what X really is.

It has to do with suspension of judgement in skepticism. I hold no judgement with truth, proof, evidence and so on for what X really is. I.e. I believe in the everyday word, but I don't know what it is as a case of X. In technical terms I haven't solved epistemological solipsism, yet I believe in the everyday world.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
"Believe in" is really not a formulation that I much care for. I expect a lot of things, because it seems natural to expect them, based on what knowledge I have.

I believe my partner when he tells me something, but I don't believe in my partner. I don't have to, I know he's there.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
"Believe in" is really not a formulation that I much care for. I expect a lot of things, because it seems natural to expect them, based on what knowledge I have.

I believe my partner when he tells me something, but I don't believe in my partner. I don't have to, I know he's there.

So what is knowledge?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Here it is.
Replace the world/the universe/everything/realty with X and all variations of what they are with Y, Z, W and so on.
Now notice the following for humans who both claim to know what X is. I.e. X is Y and not Z versus X is Z and not Y. One of them don't know, so I figure out that I don't need to know what X really is and I don't need to believe in that I know what X really is.

It has to do with suspension of judgement in skepticism. I hold no judgement with truth, proof, evidence and so on for what X really is. I.e. I believe in the everyday word, but I don't know what it is as a case of X. In technical terms I haven't solved epistemological solipsism, yet I believe in the everyday world.
So, you "believe in the everyday world" and yet somehow also "don't believe in any positive or negative version of the really real or not real?"

I think I get where you are coming from - because I, myself, would only admit to tentative belief in just about anything, awaiting more concrete evidence/demonstration of what is "true." However, I admit that I believe things - quite a lot of things actually, while still admitting that they are just beliefs. You, on the other hand, want to simultaneously claim that you believe nothing, and yet state also that you "only believe things." In the end, your statement of non-belief in things was all-encompassing, and yet you back track out of it a sentence or two later and admit the opposite. It becomes very hard to take you seriously.
 

Faithofchristian

Well-Known Member
As for your question to Atheists..
Now as to why would Atheists want to argue or talk to you about a God Atheists do not believe in..

As for that matter of fact would anyone want to argue over something they don't believe in.
If I myself do not believe in something..
I'm sure not going to argue about it.
That's totally insanity..
To argue over something a person does not believe in....where's the logic in that??
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
So, you "believe in the everyday world" and yet somehow also "don't believe in any positive or negative version of the really real or not real?"

I think I get where you are coming from - because I, myself, would only admit to tentative belief in just about anything, awaiting more concrete evidence/demonstration of what is "true." However, I admit that I believe things - quite a lot of things actually, while still admitting that they are just beliefs. You, on the other hand, want to simultaneously claim that you believe nothing, and yet state also that you "only believe things." In the end, your statement of non-belief in things was all-encompassing, and yet you back track out of it a sentence or two later and admit the opposite. It becomes very hard to take you seriously.

I get you. The difference I that I don't believe in a more concrete evidence/demonstration of what is "true."
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
You do understand why I put "true" in quotes, right? Why do I always feel like I am pulling teeth when conversing with you?

Because you assume a correct standard for evidence and demonstration. I haven't found such a standard. For any variant of knowledge or any other word to that effect, I haven't been able to do that as correct or whatever you want to call that.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Because you assume a correct standard for evidence and demonstration. I haven't found such a standard. For any variant of knowledge or any other word to that effect, I haven't been able to do that as correct or whatever you want to call that.
I assume one should have a standard that is confined to what one can claim to have mapped to the reality we mutually experience (that is, assigned based on items one can actually have had experience enough with to claim even a rudimentary level of hands-on expertise). If someone isn't working using a standard as-such, then I will ask them to provide me information as to how their standard is better suited to making discernments and decisions, and likely not believe a word they say that doesn't conform to the reality I experience until they do so.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I assume one should have a standard that is confined to what one can claim to have mapped to the reality we mutually experience (that is, assigned based on items one can actually have had experience enough with to claim even a rudimentary level of hands-on expertise). If someone isn't working using a standard as-such, then I will ask them to provide me information as to how their standard is better suited to making discernments and decisions, and likely not believe a word they say that doesn't conform to the reality I experience until they do so.

Now we are getting somewhere. I used to accept that version. But that is not everything, because neither we, mutually or experience as hands-on is all of what you experience and it is not the same as me in all cases.

It is easy to check:
Everything is what we mutually experience hands-on.
Me: No, you assume what the world is the same for us in all cases. It is not, nor is it different in all cases. We are playing same, similar and/or different for all experiences.
Further you assume that the reality is not a case of a Boltzmann Brain or any other such variant.
 

ajarntham

Member
From @lewisnotmiller comment on another thread

That sounds like a more constructive thread.

Dear atheists...I get that you don't believe in Gods. But tell me what you DO believe in...

There is no logical reason to believe in a god or gods, no hard evidence . So an atheist does not believe in god or gods.

Mentioning no names @questfortruth and others but there are some people on RF who believe that atheists have no belief whatsoever.

So i am asking atheists what do they actually believe in.

For me

I hope and believe that i will live to see my kids fledge the nest. It's one of my dearest wishes to take them through children and launch them on a successful adulthood.

I believe my husband and children love me

I believe that my car will start when i need it.

I even believe Jesus existed but not as the person described in the bible

I believe that the bread dough i made this morning will have risen enough to bake a couple of loaves.

And much more

So all you atheists out there in RF land, please inform us all of a few of the things you believe in.

I believe all people have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, by virtue of being the extraordinary kind of animal we are.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
So all you atheists out there in RF land, please inform us all of a few of the things you believe in.

I'll take the OP somewhat seriously ;)

- I believe in utilitarianism. Can't prove it, but I believe it.
- I believe in the process of science. Maybe there's a better approach, but I haven't heard of it.
- One branch of science is how sentient (or near-sentient) creatures are motivated. The old carrot and stick approach (religions' frequent hammer), can work in some situations, but we're learning now that it's the weakest form of motivation. On the other hand, "intrinsic motivation" (much to the behaviorist's chagrin), is seen as one of the most powerful types of motivation. Long story short, I believe people do the right thing because it's intrinsically motivating to do so, not because of the fear of a cruel god.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Now we are getting somewhere. I used to accept that version. But that is not everything, because neither we, mutually or experience as hands-on is all of what you experience and it is not the same as me in all cases.

It is easy to check:
Everything is what we mutually experience hands-on.
Me: No, you assume what the world is the same for us in all cases. It is not, nor is it different in all cases. We are playing same, similar and/or different for all experiences.
Further you assume that the reality is not a case of a Boltzmann Brain or any other such variant.
I don't assume the world is "the same" for us in all cases - that is, I don't assume that you experience things in exactly the ways that I do. But the reality is, when an account varies wildly from the observational data that correlates 99+% of the population, then that becomes an item unique to that individual, and unless it can be DEMONSTRATED that that/those individual(s) are actually correct in their interpretation (for example, by utilizing unbiased mechanisms or instruments to do measuring, rather than relying 100% on observational interpretations), then it is assumed that that/those individual(s) are incorrect - even if they believe themselves to be correct! And this is ESPECIALLY if their version of things doesn't even mesh with reality, and provides no accurate model for testing, or even worse - flies in the face of reality so much that it is impossible to reconcile their reports with what is observable/measurable or is demonstrated to be the effects of said activity.

Point being - we have ways of fact-checking one another - whether you like it or not, or whether it supports your proclivity for being sympathetic to religious/spiritual causes or not. I get that this "fact checking" is the bane of the spiritual world. Deal with it. My best guess (and honest hope) is that it is here to stay.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
1. I believe there is no source to how the universe was created (no first cause). Instead, I believe the universe formed itself, for lack of better words. We're formed into being.

2. I believe we are all energy-everything is. Insofar that we can experience other people's energy or experience regardless if they are alive or deceased. I had that once when I was in Microsoft Office Class. During lunch this student ask me to borrow a pencil. I had this heavy warning energy gut feeling and I couldn't hand him the pencil. I thought he could be a murderer later in life or something similar. I have these things in places too but not as often. Other stories I've repeated on RF are likewise related.

3. I don't believe in an inherent universal purpose in life. We make our own purposes.

4. I'm beginning to believe our actions thrown out have some affect on what we experience present moment. Experiences like coincidences (no meaning) and synchronicities (with meaning) happen daily. Don't know why but I don't attribute them to a god.

5. Given I believe everything is made up of energy I tend to have different feelings with objects I own.

6. I don't believe in a soul as in we all have an external part of us inside flesh but if you called energy spirit (which by definition you can call it that I guess) that would be a good term.

I guess life force would be better but that sounds star-warzie. Here's the definition:

a. the force or influence that gives something its vitality or strength.
b. the spirit or energy that animates living creatures; the soul.

I think the purpose of religion is basically to describe or live this animated energy that gives vitality (whether in love, grace, or maybe communion with ancestors or spiritual understanding of the prophets... discovering the nature of reality and consciousness... a lot of concepts with the term).

I don't believe in deities like Jehovah, Zues, things like that.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
From @lewisnotmiller comment on another thread

That sounds like a more constructive thread.

Dear atheists...I get that you don't believe in Gods. But tell me what you DO believe in...

There is no logical reason to believe in a god or gods, no hard evidence . So an atheist does not believe in god or gods.

Mentioning no names @questfortruth and others but there are some people on RF who believe that atheists have no belief whatsoever.

So i am asking atheists what do they actually believe in.

For me

I hope and believe that i will live to see my kids fledge the nest. It's one of my dearest wishes to take them through children and launch them on a successful adulthood.

I believe my husband and children love me

I believe that my car will start when i need it.

I even believe Jesus existed but not as the person described in the bible

I believe that the bread dough i made this morning will have risen enough to bake a couple of loaves.

And much more

So all you atheists out there in RF land, please inform us all of a few of the things you believe in.

I believe there are no guarantees. That whatever I believe might not be true.

I believe in the here and now but there will always be a delay and a possible alteration caused by the brain between the reality that is actual and the reality that we consciously experience.

I believe that humans are mostly ruled by their emotions with a bit of rational thinking thrown in on occasion.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
So what gives you the impression that we are designed?

Nope, love is an emotion.
Your body is a design. Why are emotions not designed? Did you know that different tear drops are designed to correspond to emotions with a different composition?

What it does sound like is that you don't want to believe there is a design... even as we look at all the designs that are obvious.
fibonacci-sequence-in-nature
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
:) since it is on a debate section... I thought I would add to the debate.

Have you ever seen a design with no designer? The design itself is hard evidence.

Love (as in loving your children) is the hard wire of who God is.

I don't believe in design. I believe in change.
What we humans are not is the result of change that survived over the eons.
A lot of changes were made which did not survive.
So if a designer is involved, they've made a lot mistakes.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
As for your question to Atheists..
Now as to why would Atheists want to argue or talk to you about a God Atheists do not believe in..

As for that matter of fact would anyone want to argue over something they don't believe in.
If I myself do not believe in something..
I'm sure not going to argue about it.
That's totally insanity..
To argue over something a person does not believe in....where's the logic in that??

On RF it can be fun, productive, or learning experience. Off line, at least here, people don't ask and don't care unless maybe rarely you meet a potential friend and the first thing they ask is to go to their church. Believers are too puzzled to talk much about religion without god. It kinda blows their mind.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
No.
The question is not that. The question is whether there is any design at all. Ergo, you are begging the question, pretty blatantly.

It is like asking: can you have Kryptonite without Superman?

Ciao

- viole
Hmmmmmmmm...... no

To deny that even your body doesn't have "design" is to deny the obvious.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
If He is nice enough to not kill them with bone cancer and such.

Ciao

- viole
We don't.... and He doesn't. How many times did Jesus give bone cancer and such vs healing those who had such diseases?
 
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