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Have the end times arrived?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
But that is the problem. Prophecies never seem to point to one specific event. Unless they are clearly failed ones like the earlier prophesy of Jesus about the end times or the Tyre prophecy.
No, the prophecy about the end times did not fail. Your interpretation failed. Matthew 24 refers to the return of Christ in the end times.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(3) The disciples came unto him privately.—From St. Mark we learn their names—“Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew;” i.e., the four in the first of the three groups that made up the Twelve. The position of Andrew as the last is noticeable, as connected with the general pre-eminence of the first three.

The sign of thy coming.—Literally, of Thy presence. The passage is memorable as the first occurrence of the word (παρονσία, parousia), which was so prominent in the teaching of the Epistles (1Thessalonians 2:19; 1Thessalonians 3:13; James 5:7; 1John 2:28, et al.). They had brought themselves to accept the thought of His departure and return, though time and manner were as yet hidden from them.

The end of the world.—Literally, the end of the age. In the common language of the day, which had passed from the schools of the Rabbis into popular use, “this age,” or “this world,” meant the time up to the coming of the Messiah; the “age or world to come” (Matthew 13:40; Matthew 19:28; Hebrews 2:5; Hebrews 6:5), the glorious time which He was to inaugurate. The disciples had heard their Lord speak in parables of such a coming, and they naturally connected it in their thoughts with the close of the age or period in which they lived.

Matthew 24:3 Commentaries: As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
You may like a specific interpretation of a prophecy but that does not mean that it is the correct one. You would need to go to an outside source to see if that is right. People can be too easily swayed by their own delusions.
The same applies to you. You may like a specific interpretation of a prophecy but that does not mean that it is the correct one.
Why do you think that an outside source would be any more correct? What gives them any special knowledge?
Do you know why there are on the order of 40,000 different sects of Christianity? It is because many of them have different interpretations of prophecy than other sects do. So far this may not have happened very much with Baha'i, but that is only because the numbers of your faith are rather small compared to other religions.
That's true about the Christians interpreting the bible differently, not only the prophecies, causing many splits and thus many sects to form. Baha'is will never have that problem because Baha'u'llah appointed interpreters of His Writings and all Bahais adhere to the authorized interpretations rather than going off on their own thinking they know more than the central figures of the Faith.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Science as a holy Satan theist or holy God theist just a human said the SEE natural human observation is first.

A non scientific theist said in the beginning there was no light.

As chemical Alchemy is known man's satanic science both said as the human man theist there is no such theory as no light.

As the law creation says light has to be present for creation to exist.

Why the end status said as no man is God beginning in burning light. No man is Satan or god.

As satanic Alchemy practice used burning as first law to convert God's presence. The varied dusts. By men in science inventing.

Never give God being circular heavenly cooling rotations in space a theory by naming ever again.

O G the spiral into O and O sit into DD back to O O flow cooling heavenly movement of gods spirit on the face of the great deep owning burning and cold clear balance.

In gods tears natural water droplet evaporation as the process.

Human advice for humans as humans.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
No, the prophecy about the end times did not fail. Your interpretation failed. Matthew 24 refers to the return of Christ in the end times.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(3) The disciples came unto him privately.—From St. Mark we learn their names—“Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew;” i.e., the four in the first of the three groups that made up the Twelve. The position of Andrew as the last is noticeable, as connected with the general pre-eminence of the first three.

The sign of thy coming.—Literally, of Thy presence. The passage is memorable as the first occurrence of the word (παρονσία, parousia), which was so prominent in the teaching of the Epistles (1Thessalonians 2:19; 1Thessalonians 3:13; James 5:7; 1John 2:28, et al.). They had brought themselves to accept the thought of His departure and return, though time and manner were as yet hidden from them.

The end of the world.—Literally, the end of the age. In the common language of the day, which had passed from the schools of the Rabbis into popular use, “this age,” or “this world,” meant the time up to the coming of the Messiah; the “age or world to come” (Matthew 13:40; Matthew 19:28; Hebrews 2:5; Hebrews 6:5), the glorious time which He was to inaugurate. The disciples had heard their Lord speak in parables of such a coming, and they naturally connected it in their thoughts with the close of the age or period in which they lived.

Matthew 24:3 Commentaries: As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

The same applies to you. You may like a specific interpretation of a prophecy but that does not mean that it is the correct one.
Why do you think that an outside source would be any more correct? What gives them any special knowledge?

That's true about the Christians interpreting the bible differently, not only the prophecies, causing many splits and thus many sects to form. Baha'is will never have that problem because Baha'u'llah appointed interpreters of His Writings and all Bahais adhere to the authorized interpretations rather than going off on their own thinking they know more than the central figures of the Faith.
How did light time end when the sun as the light still exists? Being rational and not theorising is first thoughts of a human.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, the prophecy about the end times did not fail. Your interpretation failed. Matthew 24 refers to the return of Christ in the end times.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers

(3) The disciples came unto him privately.—From St. Mark we learn their names—“Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew;” i.e., the four in the first of the three groups that made up the Twelve. The position of Andrew as the last is noticeable, as connected with the general pre-eminence of the first three.

The sign of thy coming.—Literally, of Thy presence. The passage is memorable as the first occurrence of the word (παρονσία, parousia), which was so prominent in the teaching of the Epistles (1Thessalonians 2:19; 1Thessalonians 3:13; James 5:7; 1John 2:28, et al.). They had brought themselves to accept the thought of His departure and return, though time and manner were as yet hidden from them.

The end of the world.—Literally, the end of the age. In the common language of the day, which had passed from the schools of the Rabbis into popular use, “this age,” or “this world,” meant the time up to the coming of the Messiah; the “age or world to come” (Matthew 13:40; Matthew 19:28; Hebrews 2:5; Hebrews 6:5), the glorious time which He was to inaugurate. The disciples had heard their Lord speak in parables of such a coming, and they naturally connected it in their thoughts with the close of the age or period in which they lived.

Matthew 24:3 Commentaries: As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

The same applies to you. You may like a specific interpretation of a prophecy but that does not mean that it is the correct one.
Why do you think that an outside source would be any more correct? What gives them any special knowledge?

That's true about the Christians interpreting the bible differently, not only the prophecies, causing many splits and thus many sects to form. Baha'is will never have that problem because Baha'u'llah appointed interpreters of His Writings and all Bahais adhere to the authorized interpretations rather than going off on their own thinking they know more than the central figures of the Faith.
LOL! Yes that was a terrible failure. You have to use all sorts of unjustifiable assumptions to come up with your version. Simply read what it says.

This is also a reality test for believers. If they cannot admit to the obvious, in other words if they have to use extremely contorted arguments to justify their position. We can see that they are not debating in good faith.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
LOL! Yes that was a terrible failure. You have to use all sorts of unjustifiable assumptions to come up with your version. Simply read what it says.

This is also a reality test for believers. If they cannot admit to the obvious, in other words if they have to use extremely contorted arguments to justify their position. We can see that they are not debating in good faith.
It is not MY version, it is a Christian interpretation.

The bible is a reality test for atheists. They cannot admit to the obvious, that it came from God, so they have to use extremely contorted arguments to justify their position of non-belief. We can see that they are not debating in good faith but rather with their ego.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Have the end times arrived? What do you think the prophet Daniel meant by the following? What does it mean, run to and fro, and how will knowledge be increased?

“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Below is the context of the verse:

Daniel Chapter 12 King James Version

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


The following excerpts are from an article entitled The Abrahamic Religions and the End Times.

If I told you that the end times have arrived, when all people would be gathered together, and described all religions as rivers flowing to one ocean, you might ask “Where does scripture tell us that?”

To discover that theme as it runs through the scriptures of the world’s great religions, let’s start with the Judeo-Christian tradition, where the gathering of all people together in the end times is made rather plain. The prophet Isaiah wrote:

In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills and all nations will stream to it. – Isaiah 2:2.

Here the metaphor is a mountain, not a river, but the message is the same: all nations will flow unto the mountain or the temple, just as rivers flow to the sea.

This mountain of the Lord’s House unto which all nations will come is a frequent symbol in the Bible. Here it is later in Isaiah, where what happens on this mountain is explained:

On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine – the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people’s disgrace from all the earth. The Lord has spoken. – Isaiah 25:6-8.

Did you catch the part that the feast is for all people and that God is going to remove the shroud – the cover – that separates us?

Consider what happens when fish from different rivers enter the sea. They are suddenly brought together, clearly visible to each other, with no separation between them. We can each see that happening now, at varying rates, all around the world, at a much faster rate than ever before.

Consider also this verse from the prophet Jeremiah:

O Lord, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, “Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.” – Jeremiah 16:19.

This verse emphasizes that people will worship one idol-less God, but did you catch the part where the nations of the earth will be brought together?

The theme recurs again in this famous passage from the prophet Micah, echoing Isaiah:

In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the Lord Almighty has spoken. All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever. – Micah 4:1-5.

Here the divine promise of what will happen when we come together is revealed: justice under a common law will be established, peace among nations will be secured, and individual life and property protected.

The Qur’an, too, foretells collective gathering and judgment, announcing:

… one Day We shall summon all human beings [and judge them] according to the conscious disposition which governed their deeds [in life]: whereupon they whose record shall be placed in their right hand – it is they who will read their record [with happiness]. Yet none shall be wronged by as much as a hair’s breadth. – 17:71.

Some interpret this as the judgment that occurs at death when Christian law will judge Christians, Jewish law will judge Jews, and Muslim law will judge Muslims, etc. Up until our present age, this seems to be the right interpretation, but now a new interpretation is possible: It could mean that when we are brought together in this world, as is now happening, we will each be judged by one moral law that separates the wheat from the chaff of each religion. Indications in other places support this new interpretation.

The Qur’an speaks of a Day when the old ways will be put away, and when people will be brought together under a common law. It reads:

[God’s promise will be fulfilled] on the Day when the earth shall be changed into another earth, as shall be the heavens and when [all men] shall appear before God, the One who holds absolute sway over all that exists. – 14:48.

Here, we are brought together by God in life, not death, and charged with changing the old Earth into a new Earth, using the guidance of a new heaven – a new religion.

This earth-and-heaven-changing Day is referred to in many different ways in the Qur’an – as the Day of Resurrection, when the whole Earth will be in God’s grasp and God will judge between the religions (Qur’an 39:67-69; 22:17). It refers to the Day of Folding (Takwir) when the heavens and Earth are folded up and a new one is laid out. It includes the Day that arises out of darkness when the sun is folded up and the stars are taken away and the people are lost (Sura 81). In this Day things that were thought to be stable, like mountains, prove not to be, and things that need tending have to be abandoned. This Surah goes on to say that in this Day the rivers (or waters) that separate us and also carry our ships will drain chaotically into a common unordered sea, and that all people and beasts (which probably means men and women who act like beasts) will be brought together and asked of their doings.

When will these things happen? The verses say (81:10): when the books are spread abroad or laid open, or to use Daniel’s phrase, “when knowledge shall be increased.” That is happening now. In our media-connected world all is accessible and visible. Not only is knowledge a click away, so too are deeds. The books are open. Misdeeds and evil, as well as deeds of service and generosity, corruption and greed, as wells as right intent and action, are all clearly manifest. The Qur’an, however, says even more, completing the prophecy given to Daniel, saying that the Promised Day will come (51:6-7) when the heavens are full of numerous (some translations say “starry”) paths.

Look up into the sky and tell me: Do you not see the starry paths of airplanes and spaceships as many now run to and fro as Daniel foretold?

If they are, they are great.

Ciao

- viole
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It is not MY version, it is a Christian interpretation.

The bible is a reality test for atheists. They cannot admit to the obvious, that it came from God, so they have to use extremely contorted arguments to justify their position of non-belief. We can see that they are not debating in good faith but rather with their ego.
And Christians that use that interpretation are as wrong as you are. Do you not understand why they use that clearly bogus interpretation?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
It’s a process but assuredly it’s happening now. Those looking for a one time event are not seeing that the end of the world is an evolutionary process.

To me, history undoubtedly shows that humanity’s evolution has progressively established wider and wider embracing groups of people. The tribe, family, city state, state and nation have been successfully and more importantly successively established over the centuries. It goes without saying that we are now approaching the stage of becoming a worldwide entity. But looking at our past, the establishment of nationhood had its wars, chaos and upheavals which humanity overcame and now we have over 360 nations.

So logically, and the practical means to establish a world community being present with things such as the internet and world travel, a world civilisation is within reach. But just like with nationalism, people will learn through chaos and upheavals to establish some sort of world commonwealth.

There is always resistance to change but an all embracing world community no longer in need for expensive armaments for war will raise the standard of living all over the world especially in poorer nations. If we look to humanity’s evolving past, a world civilisation is inevitable and the next step in our progress.
 

Clara Tea

Well-Known Member
The problem is looking for things ahead of time, in a prophetic way..... will always point to a person being right, in their own opinion. Because things always happen that can look like circumstancial evidence when vague predictions are followed.

But no, if you follow the fine details of the end-times, most predictions in Revelation probably have not happened. It's only when one starts using symbolism and bending it to their will, already believing the end is here, as well as taking Jesus' statement about "being caught as a thief in the night", which is really vague, do people look at things and see the Abrahamic end-times.

So, if someone said that within a month, the Pavlof volcano in the Alaskan Aleutian Island chain would erupt and cause a tsunami, that would be considered a vague prediction? Well, perhaps the eruption will be on the nearby island of Unalaska, instead.

What is considered vague?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” Daniel 12:11-12.
Now let's go through this again, from when? From the time of what? It says from the taking away of the daily sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination. Antiochus Epiphanes did that.

There are 1,290 lunar years in the Islamic calendar from the date of Muhammad’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in the year 613, to Baha’u’llah’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in 1863.
Did Muhammad stop the daily prayer and set up the abomination? No, he declared he was a prophet. Then Baha'is add 1290 lunar years.

Prophetically, the 1,290 and the 1,335 days/years go together, the first logically following the second. The 1,335 solar years begin with the year 628, the year Muhammad signed a treaty with his enemies in Mecca that signified that recognized the Muslim community in Medina not only as a legitimate force, but also one to be respected and accorded contractual or diplomatic status.

The 1,335 solar years added to 628 equals 1,963 years, or the calendar year 1963, a momentous period in Baha’i history. That was the year when members of the world’s National Spiritual Assemblies cast their ballots to elect the first Universal House of Justice – the global administrative body of the Baha’i Faith. The declaration of Baha’u’llah in 1863 (the 1,290 years) was followed in 1963 (the 1,335 years) by completion of the three-tiered Baha’i administrative order at the local, national and international levels, devised by Baha’u’llah for the internal governance of the Baha’i Faith.
In Daniel does it say to start counting the 1290 days from one year and the 1335 days from a different one? No. But Baha'is do. But now they make it solar years from Hegira? No. They take it from a treaty Muhammad signed with Mecca? But then the "fulfillment" is 1963? So blessed are those that waited that extra time to get to the 100 years anniversary of Baha'u'llah's declaration? What an event! A three-tiered administrative order was set up!

This is sad. You and Abdul Baha' completely ignore the stopping of the daily sacrifice and the setting up of the abomination. Oh well, if you think that is reasonable, sensible and logical then good for you. 'Cause I think that is one of the most flakiest of fulfillments I've ever heard.... So far.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that there can be more than one interpretation of the same prophecy but if the prophecy points to a specific person then only one interpretation can be correct, which means that the other interpretations are incorrect. The prophecy was not a false or failed prophecy, but rather the person(s) who misinterpreted the prophecy failed to apprehend the meaning.

For example:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Christians believe this is a prophecy referring to Jesus but Jews think it refers to another person, but the verse was written to refer to only one person so obviously the Christians and the Jews cannot both be right about who the prophecy is referring to. Either the Christians or the Jews failed to apprehend the meaning, i.e. who the prophecy was referring to.
Yes, the Jews are right. It was a "sign" for King Ahaz. Christians took only one verse and made up a story of a virgin birth and ignored the rest of the things said about the sign... Like that when the boy gets old enough to know right from wrong, the two kings that King Ahaz fears will be gone. When did Jesus fulfill that part of the sign? He didn't. Also, two gospel writers, who were probably not eyewitnesses, told very different stories about the birth of Jesus. So where did they get their information? I'm thinking from oral traditions, that is myths and legends that were going around about this God/man, Jesus.

But, since you probably think verse 14 was about Jesus, then who do you think fulfilled those other verses about this child?
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
It is not MY version, it is a Christian interpretation.

The bible is a reality test for atheists. They cannot admit to the obvious, that it came from God, so they have to use extremely contorted arguments to justify their position of non-belief. We can see that they are not debating in good faith but rather with their ego.
It came from God? I thought it was written by men, not the manifestation. It is written as if literal and historical, but it isn't. And it's not totally accurate or authentic? But it came from God? So God was in communication with the writers?

But never mind all of that... It is what people did with the Bible that gives some people a very reason not believe in the Bible, in religion and God.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
To me, history undoubtedly shows that humanity’s evolution has progressively established wider and wider embracing groups of people. The tribe, family, city state, state and nation have been successfully and more importantly successively established over the centuries.
Where have you been? Is all going well? Anyways... I've heard some Baha'is use this and say things like one manifestation brought tribal unity, the next city state unity, the next brought nations. But way back in those olden days there were great empires and those great empires ruled large portions of the known world, and those great empires had religions. But there was an awful lot of force used to make those great empires.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
So, if someone said that within a month, the Pavlof volcano in the Alaskan Aleutian Island chain would erupt and cause a tsunami, that would be considered a vague prediction? Well, perhaps the eruption will be on the nearby island of Unalaska, instead.

What is considered vague?
That's the problem. What seems completely vague to some, sounds so right on to believers. For example, A Baha'i wrote a book and said that an earthquake in Portugal, and a dark, smoky day in North America and a great meteor shower also in North America were fulfillments of prophecies about the Bab, over in Persia, in 1844, declaring himself a messenger of God. And all those things happened decades before. And, as if we still don't have earthquakes, smoky days and meteor showers. And like TB herself has said, prophecies can be made to say anything a person wants them to say, or something like that. Especially those one or two verse, taken out context prophecies.
 
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