Have the end times arrived?

Subduction Zone · Oct 17, 2021

Trailblazer said:
No, you just want it to be clear. A prophecy does not have to be clear to you in order to be a prophecy, nor does it have to meet your criteria. Again, that is just what you want, but we don't always get what we want.

prophecy

1. the foretelling or prediction of what is to come.
2., something that is declared by a prophet, especially a divinely inspired prediction, instruction, or exhortation.
3. a divinely inspired utterance or revelation: oracular prophecies.
4. the action, function, or faculty of a prophet.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/prophecy

Definition of prophecy

1 : an inspired utterance of a prophet
2 : the function or vocation of a prophet specifically : the inspired declaration of divine will and purpose
3 : a prediction of something to come

Definition of PROPHECY

And once again your shallow understanding is not helped by the dictionaries. Those only give the shallowest of explanations of something. If one is discussing something that it all complex they are all but worthless.

You still have to answer the list that I provided. Would you like to discuss one item at a time?

CG Didymus · Oct 17, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Some Baha'is might believe that Abdu'l-Baha is infallible but I don't believe that.
What do you think is the very obvious starting time for the prophecy?
I'll look at your other posts later but since I am on the topic, Can you tell me specifically what you believe he got wrong?

What ii says in Daniel... "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

When do we start counting the time? From when the daily sacrifice and the abomination thing like it says or from Muhammad's proclamation for one of them and from the Hegira for the other?

rational experiences · Oct 17, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Have the end times arrived? What do you think the prophet Daniel meant by the following? What does it mean, run to and fro, and how will knowledge be increased?

“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Below is the context of the verse:

Daniel Chapter 12 King James Version

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The following excerpts are from an article entitled The Abrahamic Religions and the End Times.

If I told you that the end times have arrived, when all people would be gathered together, and described all religions as rivers flowing to one ocean, you might ask “Where does scripture tell us that?”

To discover that theme as it runs through the scriptures of the world’s great religions, let’s start with the Judeo-Christian tradition, where the gathering of all people together in the end times is made rather plain. The prophet Isaiah wrote:

In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills and all nations will stream to it. – Isaiah 2:2.

Here the metaphor is a mountain, not a river, but the message is the same: all nations will flow unto the mountain or the temple, just as rivers flow to the sea.

This mountain of the Lord’s House unto which all nations will come is a frequent symbol in the Bible. Here it is later in Isaiah, where what happens on this mountain is explained:

On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine – the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people’s disgrace from all the earth. The Lord has spoken. – Isaiah 25:6-8.

Did you catch the part that the feast is for all people and that God is going to remove the shroud – the cover – that separates us?

Consider what happens when fish from different rivers enter the sea. They are suddenly brought together, clearly visible to each other, with no separation between them. We can each see that happening now, at varying rates, all around the world, at a much faster rate than ever before.

Consider also this verse from the prophet Jeremiah:

O Lord, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, “Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.” – Jeremiah 16:19.

This verse emphasizes that people will worship one idol-less God, but did you catch the part where the nations of the earth will be brought together?

The theme recurs again in this famous passage from the prophet Micah, echoing Isaiah:

In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the Lord Almighty has spoken. All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever. – Micah 4:1-5.

Here the divine promise of what will happen when we come together is revealed: justice under a common law will be established, peace among nations will be secured, and individual life and property protected.

The Qur’an, too, foretells collective gathering and judgment, announcing:

… one Day We shall summon all human beings [and judge them] according to the conscious disposition which governed their deeds [in life]: whereupon they whose record shall be placed in their right hand – it is they who will read their record [with happiness]. Yet none shall be wronged by as much as a hair’s breadth. – 17:71.

Some interpret this as the judgment that occurs at death when Christian law will judge Christians, Jewish law will judge Jews, and Muslim law will judge Muslims, etc. Up until our present age, this seems to be the right interpretation, but now a new interpretation is possible: It could mean that when we are brought together in this world, as is now happening, we will each be judged by one moral law that separates the wheat from the chaff of each religion. Indications in other places support this new interpretation.

The Qur’an speaks of a Day when the old ways will be put away, and when people will be brought together under a common law. It reads:

[God’s promise will be fulfilled] on the Day when the earth shall be changed into another earth, as shall be the heavens and when [all men] shall appear before God, the One who holds absolute sway over all that exists. – 14:48.

Here, we are brought together by God in life, not death, and charged with changing the old Earth into a new Earth, using the guidance of a new heaven – a new religion.

This earth-and-heaven-changing Day is referred to in many different ways in the Qur’an – as the Day of Resurrection, when the whole Earth will be in God’s grasp and God will judge between the religions (Qur’an 39:67-69; 22:17). It refers to the Day of Folding (Takwir) when the heavens and Earth are folded up and a new one is laid out. It includes the Day that arises out of darkness when the sun is folded up and the stars are taken away and the people are lost (Sura 81). In this Day things that were thought to be stable, like mountains, prove not to be, and things that need tending have to be abandoned. This Surah goes on to say that in this Day the rivers (or waters) that separate us and also carry our ships will drain chaotically into a common unordered sea, and that all people and beasts (which probably means men and women who act like beasts) will be brought together and asked of their doings.

When will these things happen? The verses say (81:10): when the books are spread abroad or laid open, or to use Daniel’s phrase, “when knowledge shall be increased.” That is happening now. In our media-connected world all is accessible and visible. Not only is knowledge a click away, so too are deeds. The books are open. Misdeeds and evil, as well as deeds of service and generosity, corruption and greed, as wells as right intent and action, are all clearly manifest. The Qur’an, however, says even more, completing the prophecy given to Daniel, saying that the Promised Day will come (51:6-7) when the heavens are full of numerous (some translations say “starry”) paths.

Look up into the sky and tell me: Do you not see the starry paths of airplanes and spaceships as many now run to and fro as Daniel foretold?

When men of scientific satanisms theisms want machines to own the light of the heavens. And when men of science want the machines to own the immaculate non burning state of the heavens he will end the time of the sun.

Sun is timed by men of science by its nuclear mass burning in the spatial void as a day event. Natural light.

A sun without light is a spatial hot dense dark mass burnt out yet to cool and fall into the great deep as the body of the satanic God in its hell. Breaking up.

Human god holy men advised.

When men theory this theory you will be warned they are trying to end lights time itself.

Trailblazer · Oct 17, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
And once again your shallow understanding is not helped by the dictionaries.

Those only give the shallowest of explanations of something. If one is discussing something that it all complex they are all but worthless.

That is what you say because you do not LIKE the real definition of something. I was not born yesterday and I have a MA in psychology, so it is not very difficult to figure you out.

Subduction Zone said:
You still have to answer the list that I provided. Would you like to discuss one item at a time?

I do not accept your list. Your list does not define what prophecy is, it is just what you want a prophecy to be so it will convince you. Do you understand the difference? That would be a starting point.

Trailblazer · Oct 17, 2021

CG Didymus said:
What ii says in Daniel... "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

When do we start counting the time? From when the daily sacrifice and the abomination thing like it says or from Muhammad's proclamation for one of them and from the Hegira for the other?

I think that Abdu'l-Baha explained that. Have you read the chapter?

10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL

I just went back and read that chapter in Some Answered Questions but I could not understand it. It is too convoluted. I am going to look for another Baha'i source that did the calculations.

Subduction Zone · Oct 17, 2021

Trailblazer said:
That is what you say because you do not LIKE the real definition of something. I was not born yesterday and I have a MA in psychology, so it is not very difficult to figure you out.

I do not accept your list. Your list does not define what prophecy is, it is just what you want a prophecy to be so it will convince you. Do you understand the difference? That would be a starting point.

Please, there is no such thing as a "real definition". And once again, you are relying on very shallow definitions. The problem is that just because someone predicts something does not make it a "prophecy". A prophecy is supposed to come true. You do not know if that has ever happened.

And my list needs no "definition" since it can be derived from context. Context is very important in any communication.

Trailblazer · Oct 17, 2021

CG Didymus said:
What ii says in Daniel... "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

When do we start counting the time? From when the daily sacrifice and the abomination thing like it says or from Muhammad's proclamation for one of them and from the Hegira for the other?

Below is part of a Baha'iTeachings.org article:

The excitement arose from Biblical prophecies, and the time calculations that many theologians, scholars and preachers made from those prophecies. For example, the disciples had asked Christ for a sign of his coming. As He sat upon the Mount of Olives the evening before His crucifixion, He replied:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place. – Mathew 14:15.

As if biblical prophecies had been unsealed as a sign of the Last Day (Daniel 12:8), 19th-century Christian scholars, clergymen and eventually the faithful realized that the sanctuary would be cleansed after 2,300 days (Daniel 8:13-14). Because they understood days to represent years in Biblical prophecy (Ezekiel 4:6), they agreed that the starting point of this prophecy was an edict issued by Artaxerxes for the restoration of the Jewish temple or sanctuary in 457 BC. Depending on how they counted the transitional year from 1 B.C. to 1 A.D., their conclusion was that the Second Advent would occur between 1843 and 1844.

Mostly, though, Daniel’s prophecy of the First Advent had excited their expectations. Daniel had foretold 70 weeks for the Jewish people to make an end to their abominations and accept their Messiah (Daniel 9:24). In the interim (Daniel 9:25-27), the restoration of Jewish polity and the building of their temple would require 7 weeks, or 49 years. This period was to be followed by threescore and 2 weeks, or 434 years, until the start of the final week during which the Messiah (Christ) would confirm the covenant. Upon His crucifixion, Christ was 33 years of age. Little wonder, then, that the conviction of a Second Advent was so widespread in the early decades of the 19th Century; for 33 + 457 = 490 years or 70 weeks—which also pointed directly at the year 1844.

In 1844, the Bab declared himself to be the inaugurator of the long-promised kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’is believe that the Bab’s coming, followed by the advent of Baha’u’llah and the establishment of the Baha’i Faith, renewed the sanctuary of the religion of God for the betterment of humanity:"

https://bahaiteachings.org/did-you-miss-the-return-of-christ/

Trailblazer · Oct 17, 2021

CG Didymus said:
What ii says in Daniel... "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

When do we start counting the time? From when the daily sacrifice and the abomination thing like it says or from Muhammad's proclamation for one of them and from the Hegira for the other?

Below is part of another Baha'iTeachings.org article.

Perhaps Daniel’s most famous prophetic vision was the one concerning 2,300 days/years, in which he saw fearsome beasts and great destruction, and then the year 1844. In that prophecy, a horn of one beast took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord and His sanctuary was thrown down. Daniel’s vision continued about this last horn as follows:

“And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” – Daniel 8:12-14.

The Baha’i teachings say that the advent of the Bab, one of the twin prophets of the Baha’i era along with Baha’u’llah, began the “cleansing of the sanctuary” with a new revelation from God. Could the sanctuary to be cleansed be the heart of humankind?

“In Daniel 8:13 it is said: … And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” … That is to say, how long shall this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation endure? Or, when will the morn of Revelation dawn? … Briefly, the point is that he fixes a period of 2,300 years, for according to the text of the Torah each day is one year. Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Bab there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years. That is to say, the fulfilment of the vision of Daniel took place in A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the advent of the Bab. Examine the text of the Book of Daniel and observe how clearly he fixes the year of His advent! There could indeed be no clearer prophecy for a Manifestation than this.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 48-49.

In other verses, Daniel also offered the number 1,290 to ponder:

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” – Daniel 12:11-12.

There are 1,290 lunar years in the Islamic calendar from the date of Muhammad’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in the year 613, to Baha’u’llah’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in 1863.

Reverting to solar years, Daniel gives his final numerical prophecy and is then told that his mission on Earth is finished:

“But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.” – Daniel 12:13.

Prophetically, the 1,290 and the 1,335 days/years go together, the first logically following the second. The 1,335 solar years begin with the year 628, the year Muhammad signed a treaty with his enemies in Mecca that signified that recognized the Muslim community in Medina not only as a legitimate force, but also one to be respected and accorded contractual or diplomatic status.

The 1,335 solar years added to 628 equals 1,963 years, or the calendar year 1963, a momentous period in Baha’i history. That was the year when members of the world’s National Spiritual Assemblies cast their ballots to elect the first Universal House of Justice – the global administrative body of the Baha’i Faith. The declaration of Baha’u’llah in 1863 (the 1,290 years) was followed in 1963 (the 1,335 years) by completion of the three-tiered Baha’i administrative order at the local, national and international levels, devised by Baha’u’llah for the internal governance of the Baha’i Faith.

https://bahaiteachings.org/new-understanding-perplexing-prophecies-daniel/

Trailblazer · Oct 17, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
The problem is that just because someone predicts something does not make it a "prophecy". A prophecy is supposed to come true. You do not know if that has ever happened.

A prophecy is a prediction of something to come. It is supposed to come true but unless it specifies a date that it will come true and it failed to come true on that date it has not failed.

The way you know if it came true is by looking at what the prophecy says and comparing that with what actually happened in history. I know which prophecies have come true because I know the history of the Baha'i Faith, so I can see what was predicted and what actually came true.

Do you understand that your list is just what you want a prophecy to be so it will convince you? A prophecy has to meet some of your criteria in order to be a prophecy, but it does not have to meet all of the criteria. Post the list again and I will explain.

Truthseeker · Oct 17, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Have the end times arrived? What do you think the prophet Daniel meant by the following? What does it mean, run to and fro, and how will knowledge be increased?

“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

Below is the context of the verse:

Daniel Chapter 12 King James Version

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The following excerpts are from an article entitled The Abrahamic Religions and the End Times.

If I told you that the end times have arrived, when all people would be gathered together, and described all religions as rivers flowing to one ocean, you might ask “Where does scripture tell us that?”

To discover that theme as it runs through the scriptures of the world’s great religions, let’s start with the Judeo-Christian tradition, where the gathering of all people together in the end times is made rather plain. The prophet Isaiah wrote:

In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills and all nations will stream to it. – Isaiah 2:2.

Here the metaphor is a mountain, not a river, but the message is the same: all nations will flow unto the mountain or the temple, just as rivers flow to the sea.

This mountain of the Lord’s House unto which all nations will come is a frequent symbol in the Bible. Here it is later in Isaiah, where what happens on this mountain is explained:

On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples, a banquet of aged wine – the best of meats and the finest of wines. On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations; he will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people’s disgrace from all the earth. The Lord has spoken. – Isaiah 25:6-8.

Did you catch the part that the feast is for all people and that God is going to remove the shroud – the cover – that separates us?

Consider what happens when fish from different rivers enter the sea. They are suddenly brought together, clearly visible to each other, with no separation between them. We can each see that happening now, at varying rates, all around the world, at a much faster rate than ever before.

Consider also this verse from the prophet Jeremiah:

O Lord, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, “Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.” – Jeremiah 16:19.

This verse emphasizes that people will worship one idol-less God, but did you catch the part where the nations of the earth will be brought together?

The theme recurs again in this famous passage from the prophet Micah, echoing Isaiah:

In the last days the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.” The law will go out from Zion, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the Lord Almighty has spoken. All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the Lord our God for ever and ever. – Micah 4:1-5.

Here the divine promise of what will happen when we come together is revealed: justice under a common law will be established, peace among nations will be secured, and individual life and property protected.

The Qur’an, too, foretells collective gathering and judgment, announcing:

… one Day We shall summon all human beings [and judge them] according to the conscious disposition which governed their deeds [in life]: whereupon they whose record shall be placed in their right hand – it is they who will read their record [with happiness]. Yet none shall be wronged by as much as a hair’s breadth. – 17:71.

Some interpret this as the judgment that occurs at death when Christian law will judge Christians, Jewish law will judge Jews, and Muslim law will judge Muslims, etc. Up until our present age, this seems to be the right interpretation, but now a new interpretation is possible: It could mean that when we are brought together in this world, as is now happening, we will each be judged by one moral law that separates the wheat from the chaff of each religion. Indications in other places support this new interpretation.

The Qur’an speaks of a Day when the old ways will be put away, and when people will be brought together under a common law. It reads:

[God’s promise will be fulfilled] on the Day when the earth shall be changed into another earth, as shall be the heavens and when [all men] shall appear before God, the One who holds absolute sway over all that exists. – 14:48.

Here, we are brought together by God in life, not death, and charged with changing the old Earth into a new Earth, using the guidance of a new heaven – a new religion.

This earth-and-heaven-changing Day is referred to in many different ways in the Qur’an – as the Day of Resurrection, when the whole Earth will be in God’s grasp and God will judge between the religions (Qur’an 39:67-69; 22:17). It refers to the Day of Folding (Takwir) when the heavens and Earth are folded up and a new one is laid out. It includes the Day that arises out of darkness when the sun is folded up and the stars are taken away and the people are lost (Sura 81). In this Day things that were thought to be stable, like mountains, prove not to be, and things that need tending have to be abandoned. This Surah goes on to say that in this Day the rivers (or waters) that separate us and also carry our ships will drain chaotically into a common unordered sea, and that all people and beasts (which probably means men and women who act like beasts) will be brought together and asked of their doings.

When will these things happen? The verses say (81:10): when the books are spread abroad or laid open, or to use Daniel’s phrase, “when knowledge shall be increased.” That is happening now. In our media-connected world all is accessible and visible. Not only is knowledge a click away, so too are deeds. The books are open. Misdeeds and evil, as well as deeds of service and generosity, corruption and greed, as wells as right intent and action, are all clearly manifest. The Qur’an, however, says even more, completing the prophecy given to Daniel, saying that the Promised Day will come (51:6-7) when the heavens are full of numerous (some translations say “starry”) paths.

Look up into the sky and tell me: Do you not see the starry paths of airplanes and spaceships as many now run to and fro as Daniel foretold?

I am surprised this is being tried. Prophecy in my opinion for most is to increase conviction when they already believe. This is a nice try, though.

Subduction Zone · Oct 17, 2021

Trailblazer said:
A prophecy is a prediction of something to come. It is supposed to come true but unless it specifies a date that it will come true and it failed to come true on that date it has not failed.

The way you know if it came true is by looking at what the prophecy says and comparing that with what actually happened in history. I know which prophecies have come true because I know the history of the Baha'i Faith, so I can see what was predicted and what actually came true.

Do you understand that your list is just what you want a prophecy to be so it will convince you?

That is false. If a prophecy is so poorly written that more than one event "fulfills" it then it is a failed prophecy.

Please try to pay attention. Since it was poorly written you do not know if the first event fulfilled it. You do not know if the second event fulfilled it. You do not even know if neither of those did so or if it is a future event. No one will ever know when various so called prophecies are fulfilled. That makes them worthless. Was it fulfilled? You don't know, and I don't know.

That is why a prophecy needs to be specific.

Trailblazer · Oct 17, 2021

Truthseeker9 said:
I am surprised this is being tried. Prophecy in my opinion for most is to increase conviction when they already believe. This is a nice try, though.

So do you think that is why prophecies were given?

Truthseeker · Oct 17, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Below is part of another Baha'iTeachings.org article.

Perhaps Daniel’s most famous prophetic vision was the one concerning 2,300 days/years, in which he saw fearsome beasts and great destruction, and then the year 1844. In that prophecy, a horn of one beast took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord and His sanctuary was thrown down. Daniel’s vision continued about this last horn as follows:

“And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” – Daniel 8:12-14.

The Baha’i teachings say that the advent of the Bab, one of the twin prophets of the Baha’i era along with Baha’u’llah, began the “cleansing of the sanctuary” with a new revelation from God. Could the sanctuary to be cleansed be the heart of humankind?

“In Daniel 8:13 it is said: … And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” … That is to say, how long shall this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation endure? Or, when will the morn of Revelation dawn? … Briefly, the point is that he fixes a period of 2,300 years, for according to the text of the Torah each day is one year. Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Bab there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years. That is to say, the fulfilment of the vision of Daniel took place in A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the advent of the Bab. Examine the text of the Book of Daniel and observe how clearly he fixes the year of His advent! There could indeed be no clearer prophecy for a Manifestation than this.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 48-49.

In other verses, Daniel also offered the number 1,290 to ponder:

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” – Daniel 12:11-12.

There are 1,290 lunar years in the Islamic calendar from the date of Muhammad’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in the year 613, to Baha’u’llah’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in 1863.

Reverting to solar years, Daniel gives his final numerical prophecy and is then told that his mission on Earth is finished:

“But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.” – Daniel 12:13.

Prophetically, the 1,290 and the 1,335 days/years go together, the first logically following the second. The 1,335 solar years begin with the year 628, the year Muhammad signed a treaty with his enemies in Mecca that signified that recognized the Muslim community in Medina not only as a legitimate force, but also one to be respected and accorded contractual or diplomatic status.

The 1,335 solar years added to 628 equals 1,963 years, or the calendar year 1963, a momentous period in Baha’i history. That was the year when members of the world’s National Spiritual Assemblies cast their ballots to elect the first Universal House of Justice – the global administrative body of the Baha’i Faith. The declaration of Baha’u’llah in 1863 (the 1,290 years) was followed in 1963 (the 1,335 years) by completion of the three-tiered Baha’i administrative order at the local, national and international levels, devised by Baha’u’llah for the internal governance of the Baha’i Faith.

https://bahaiteachings.org/new-understanding-perplexing-prophecies-daniel/

Sometimes, a person many years later can clarify what 'Abdu'l-Baha meant. I do believe that 'Abdu'l-Baha is infallible about the scriptures of other religions, not just Baha'i.

This Eileen Maddocks has written a series of three books about Old Testament prophecies, not one like William Sears.

Truthseeker · Oct 17, 2021

Trailblazer said:
So do you think that is why prophecies were given?

Well, not quite. For those who already believe it does for most what I said, but for those who don't already believe it is a spiritual test. That's part of the message of the Book of Certitude.

Subduction Zone · Oct 17, 2021

Truthseeker9 said:
Well, not quite. For those who already believe it does for most what I said, but for those who don't already believe it is a spiritual test. That's part of the message of the Book of Certitude.

You mean like "Believe our nonsense or else!"?

Trailblazer · Oct 17, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
That is false. If a prophecy is so poorly written that more than one event "fulfills" it then it is a failed prophecy.

Only one event can fulfill a prophecy because it refers to only one event, so if people disagree on what event fulfilled it (or will fulfill in the future) then only one person can be right and the other person is wrong. The person who is right interpreted the prophecy correctly and the person is wrong did not interpret it correctly.

The prophecy did not fail, the person who misinterpreted the prophecy failed to understand the meaning of the prophecy.

Subduction Zone said:
Please try to pay attention. Since it was poorly written you do not know if the first event fulfilled it. You do not know if the second event fulfilled it. You do not even know if neither of those did so or if it is a future event. No one will ever know when various so called prophecies are fulfilled. That makes them worthless. Was it fulfilled? You don't know, and I don't know.

That is why a prophecy needs to be specific.

Even is a prophecy is specific you cannot know who it refers to until you have a person to match it up to. It's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess what it is referring to beforehand. It helps to look at the context, but even then one cannot know who “he” refers to unless one is looking at history and can see how it was fulfilled by a person in history.

If a person claimed to be the return of Christ, then all the bible prophecies for the return of Christ would have to be fulfilled by that person. If you look at all the bible prophecies that are predicting the return of Christ and they were fulfilled by one person then it does not matter if some of them are vague because once we know who they are referring to it is easy to see how the vague prophecies were fulfilled by that person.

Subduction Zone · Oct 17, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Only one event can fulfill a prophecy because it refers to only one event, so if people disagree on what event fulfilled it (or will fulfill in the future) then only one person can be right and the other person is wrong. The person who is right interpreted the prophecy correctly and the person is wrong did not interpret it correctly.

The prophecy did not fail, the person who misinterpreted the prophecy failed to understand the meaning of the prophecy.

Even is a prophecy is specific you cannot know who it refers to until you have a person to match it up to. It's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess what it is referring to beforehand. It helps to look at the context, but even then one cannot know who “he” refers to unless one is looking at history and can see how it was fulfilled by a person in history.

If a person claimed to be the return of Christ, then all the bible prophecies for the return of Christ would have to be fulfilled by that person. If you look at all the bible prophecies that are predicting the return of Christ and they were fulfilled by one person then it does not matter if some of them are vague because once we know who they are referring to it is easy to see how the vague prophecies were fulfilled by that person.

Wait a second. before I respond to anything else are you saying that if there is more than one interpretation of a prophecy that claims it is fulfilled that it is a false or failed prophecy?

Trailblazer · Oct 17, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Wait a second. before I respond to anything else are you saying that if there is more than one interpretation of a prophecy that claims it is fulfilled that it is a false or failed prophecy?

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that there can be more than one interpretation of the same prophecy but if the prophecy points to a specific person then only one interpretation can be correct, which means that the other interpretations are incorrect. The prophecy was not a false or failed prophecy, but rather the person(s) who misinterpreted the prophecy failed to apprehend the meaning.

For example:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Christians believe this is a prophecy referring to Jesus but Jews think it refers to another person, but the verse was written to refer to only one person so obviously the Christians and the Jews cannot both be right about who the prophecy is referring to. Either the Christians or the Jews failed to apprehend the meaning, i.e. who the prophecy was referring to.

rational experiences · Oct 17, 2021

Ignorance says CH gas spirit of earths heavens never left.
We are talking men's science.

Men living irradiated said I became aware when my own genesis DNA losses changed my human life.

Awareness only.

In the aware statement are acts of evil also or do you just ignore what nuclear science meanings involves?

A human self life might be considered a holy man yet your discussions involve evils of man's science sins.

As DNA for holy life is human mother and man's baby life conceived by parent sex ignorance reigns in men's minds as the sciences of men.

Moses science did not own why earth gods CH heavens gases existed. Natural evolution spatial history owned it the teaching.

Relativity contradiction science advice is the bible.

Subduction Zone · Oct 18, 2021

Trailblazer said:
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that there can be more than one interpretation of the same prophecy but if the prophecy points to a specific person then only one interpretation can be correct, which means that the other interpretations are incorrect. The prophecy was not a false or failed prophecy, but rather the person(s) who misinterpreted the prophecy failed to apprehend the meaning.

For example:

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Christians believe this is a prophecy referring to Jesus but Jews think it refers to another person, but the verse was written to refer to only one person so obviously the Christians and the Jews cannot both be right about who the prophecy is referring to. Either the Christians or the Jews failed to apprehend the meaning, i.e. who the prophecy was referring to.

But that is the problem. Prophecies never seem to point to one specific event. Unless they are clearly failed ones like the earlier prophesy of Jesus about the end times or the Tyre prophecy.

You may like a specific interpretation of a prophecy but that does not mean that it is the correct one. You would need to go to an outside source to see if that is right. People can be too easily swayed by their own delusions.

Do you know why there are on the order of 40,000 different sects of Christianity? It is because many of them have different interpretations of prophecy than other sects do. So far this may not have happened very much with Baha'i, but that is only because the numbers of your faith are rather small compared to other religions.

Have the end times arrived?

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