Why is religion so fascinated with homosexuality?

Bodie · Oct 17, 2021

SomeRandom said:
Although weirdly lesbians often got away with it even back during the Middle Ages. Which is a bit odd but whatever.

Well, it would go along with the idea that most straight men would say "gay men suck (no pun intended) but lesbians are hot"

9-10ths_Penguin · Oct 17, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
So, Christians -- enlighten us. Why is this topic so important that it occupies so much of these forums?

I think it's rooted in sexism, fundamentally.

The idea that the only sort of sex that is allowed is procreative sex within a marriage comes out of the sexist idea of marriage as a breeding arrangement.

The idea of two men or two women in a marriage together just doesn't compute for people whose model of marriage requires one spouse to be subservient to the other on the basis of gender; how can two equals enter into a relationship that's - in their view - fundamentally unequal?

That's my take on it, anyhow.

Unveiled Artist · Oct 17, 2021

Kooky said:
In many cases they seem to just double down, adding self hatred to the already existing mix of disdain and disgust. There is a prevalent undercurrent in fundamentalist macho discourse about what can only be colloquially referred to as men "catching the gay", which to me seems specifically adressed to Abrahamist men insecure in their own sexuality.

Have you heard of Exodus International Organization?
Group apologizes to gay community, shuts down 'cure' ministry | CNN
After 37 years, Exodus International, an organization whose mission was to “help” gay Christians become straight, is shutting down. But not before issuing an apology.

“We’re not negating the ways God used Exodus to positively affect thousands of people, but a new generation of Christians is looking for change – and they want to be heard,” Tony Moore, an Exodus board member, said Wednesday.

-That's good and all but here's something else:
https://couragerc.org/ A Roman Catholic apostolate for men and women who experience same-sex attractions and those who love them. (Current program)

One of the major reasons I left the Church including theological differences. I've always hated the phrase love the sinner hate the sin.

I just don't understand it.

Lain · Oct 17, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
I've always hated the phrase love the sinner hate the sin.

I just don't understand it.

What about it do you not understand?

JustGeorge · Oct 17, 2021

74x12 said:
I rarely talk about it. The fact is though, homosexuals are coming after us Christians. We're being targeted. I say live and let live; but homosexuals are becoming militant at this point and purposely target Christians. They go to a Christian baker and try to force him to make a gay wedding cake when they know he isn't going to because it's against his personal faith.

And that's wrong. Homosexuals also are targeting children. They want to teach Christian's children that Christianity is bad and homosexuality is right. So when homosexuals start coming after us; then that's on them. We'll fight back for sure. Why don't they try these tactics against Muslims? Because they know the result. They are scared of Muslims so they leave them alone. They should be scared of us Christians too. Not because we're going to blow ourselves up or anything but because we will make them pay in political, legal and monetary ways that the won't like. Christians will stand up for themselves more and more. We will resist the more we are pressed into a corner and forced to resist.

Other than that we don't care. I don't care what people do in their bedroom just don't try to force it on me.

To me it's no different than other sins in the Bible like fornication; sex outside of marriage. It's none of my business. I believe in freedom for all and live and let live. I don't hate gays lol. That's ridiculous.

I notice you talk as if homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible, yet I've met numerous homosexual Christians. I'm not sure they have to be exclusive to one another.

Unveiled Artist · Oct 17, 2021

Lain said:
What about it do you not understand?

It's a controversial statement. I never understood the whole issue with homosexuality and christianity... morally. Theologically, yes. Morally, our history doesn't support that and its weird that christians who love homosexuals but define them by what they call "their" sexual sins feel they're not part of that history.

I don't understand more so it appalls me insofar I can't really figure the right word to describe the feeling.

74x12 · Oct 17, 2021

JustGeorge said:
I notice you talk as if homosexuality and Christianity are incompatible, yet I've met numerous homosexual Christians. I'm not sure they have to be exclusive to one another.

I generalized for the sake brevity. Of course as an American I believe no one else can decide your faith. It's a personal thing between you and God or whatever gods/goddesses etc.

Kooky · Oct 17, 2021

Bodie said:
Well, it would go along with the idea that most straight men would say "gay men suck (no pun intended) but lesbians are hot"

They tend to like the idea of lesbianism as presented in porn, but from what I heard, their reaction to actual real life lesbian women are often far less understanding. Fundamentally, many straight men tend to enjoy things that they understand to be done for their own gratification (such as lesbian porn), but I've seen quite a few men react with hostility when they feel excluded from something (such as real lesbian sex).

Unveiled Artist · Oct 17, 2021

@Lain The Courage program in the catholic church is an example of loving the sinner and hating the sin: A Roman Catholic apostolate for men and women who experience same-sex attractions and those who love them.

You can't love a person you want to change (in one's head, in prayer, or outwardly).

Lain · Oct 17, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
It's a controversial statement. I never understood the whole issue with homosexuality and christianity... morally. Theologically, yes. Morally, our history doesn't support that and its weird that christians who love homosexuals but define them by what they call "their" sexual sins feel they're not part of that history.

I don't understand more so it appalls me insofar I can't really figure the right word to describe the feeling.

I see. Although if a person defines another person by their acts alone then it sounds like they are by definition not "loving the sinner but hating the sin." Thank you for explaining your view to me.

Lain · Oct 17, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
You can't love a person you want to change (in one's head, in prayer, or outwardly).

Why is this the case to you?

Vinayaka · Oct 17, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
So as we natter away (yet again) in another thread about homosexuality, I'm curious about something: why are religious types, especially conservatives, so interested? Why do they care so much?

Here's a little quote from a gay priest, Malcolm Johnston, in his book "Diary of a Gay Priest: The Tightrope Walker:"

"It is condemned. It is expressly forbidden in Scripture...Four General Councils forbid it, Luther and Zwingli weighed in against it, and until recently it was distasteful to most people. What is it? Lending money at interest."

Shakespeare created one of his greatest villains (Shylock) based on the practice of taking usance (interest). Jews prospered all over the Christian world because kings and nobles needed to borrow money, but their own subjects, unable to charge interest, were unwilling to spot them large sums.

So why aren't conservative Christians railing against lending at interest?

American Christians were loathe to give up their slaves -- claiming it was permitted, even encouraged by Scripture. But they gave them up eventually, but long, long before they were willing to give up their hatred towards gays.

Even though Jesus couldn't even be bothered mentioning the subject!

So, Christians -- enlighten us. Why is this topic so important that it occupies so much of these forums?

Not all religions, but some for sure. It puzzles me as well, as I can see no logical way to explain the fascination.

Psalm23 · Oct 17, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
One of the major reasons I left the Church including theological differences. I've always hated the phrase love the sinner hate the sin.

I just don't understand it.

In my opinion, it needs to be a phrase that stops being used among Christians. In a way, the phrase seems to distance the person saying it from identifying as a sinner. Nor does the Bible use this phrase.

Unveiled Artist · Oct 17, 2021

Lain said:
Why is this the case to you?

For example, say you get into a very deep friendship with someone who is gay. However, you don't know he is gay (maybe he is uncomfortable telling you for personal reasons). You've known this guy for years and one day he feels comfortable to tell you he is gay.

You still love the guy but at the same time because in scripture "homosexuality=same-sex sex therefore homosexuals are sinners" your perception of him changes in light of that label and his values. So if he married and both spouses raised children together your views (not meanly) would change in reflection to the marriage you may not agree with and his intimacy that you would say is sinful.

Your values influence how you see him as a gay person.

Of course you are still friends. Just for many gay people (and minorities) if they know you (a loved one, friend, or trusted person) doesn't love or respect them for who they are it cuts the ties. Being a gay person is a personal thing and not about what one does in the bed.

I don't know where that phrase came from but I think many gay people would feel offended. Children who come out to their friends and realize their friends see them differently (inwardly or outwardly because of religion or upbringing) sticks with them.

Adults are no different.

Unveiled Artist · Oct 17, 2021

Psalm23 said:
In my opinion, it needs to be a phrase that stops being used among Christians. In a way, the phrase seems to distance the person saying it from identifying as a sinner. Nor does the Bible use this phrase.

True. The closest thing I can think of in the bible that correlates is everyone is a sinner according to scripture and it says to do (and love) for christ is to do for others. So the homosexuality is a sin, in my opinion, is fueled by biases one already has... but back then was different. Translators were in a different era than us and of course the bible wasn't written in english.

Rival · Oct 17, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
For example, say you get into a very deep friendship with someone who is gay. However, you don't know he is gay (maybe he is uncomfortable telling you for personal reasons). You've known this guy for years and one day he feels comfortable to tell you he is gay.

You still love the guy but at the same time because in scripture "homosexuality=same-sex sex therefore homosexuals are sinners" your perception of him changes in light of that label and his values.

It wouldn't change my view of such a person one bit. If he's religious I'd be concerned about how I could help him align himself with his conservative values. In this way I'd love him more, as I'd want to make sure he didn't feel pushed out because of this.

PruePhillip · Oct 17, 2021

Evangelicalhumanist said:
So as we natter away (yet again) in another thread about homosexuality, I'm curious about something: why are religious types, especially conservatives, so interested? Why do they care so much?

Here's a little quote from a gay priest, Malcolm Johnston, in his book "Diary of a Gay Priest: The Tightrope Walker:"

"It is condemned. It is expressly forbidden in Scripture...Four General Councils forbid it, Luther and Zwingli weighed in against it, and until recently it was distasteful to most people. What is it? Lending money at interest."

Shakespeare created one of his greatest villains (Shylock) based on the practice of taking usance (interest). Jews prospered all over the Christian world because kings and nobles needed to borrow money, but their own subjects, unable to charge interest, were unwilling to spot them large sums.

So why aren't conservative Christians railing against lending at interest?

American Christians were loathe to give up their slaves -- claiming it was permitted, even encouraged by Scripture. But they gave them up eventually, but long, long before they were willing to give up their hatred towards gays.

Even though Jesus couldn't even be bothered mentioning the subject!

So, Christians -- enlighten us. Why is this topic so important that it occupies so much of these forums?

Because homosexuality is seen as a MORAL ISSUE, in the same way divorce is seen, or
murder, stealing, false witness etc..

Unveiled Artist · Oct 17, 2021

Rival said:
It wouldn't change my view of such a person one bit. If he's religious I'd be concerned about how I could help him align himself with his conservative values. In this way I'd love him more, as I'd want to make sure he didn't feel pushed out because of this.

I don't know if most gay people will be heavily concerned but if he were religious its best to respect his views rather than help him align with conservative views. Unless he asks and you two were of the same spiritual understanding but it shouldn't be construed that you're helping him because he is wrong or living wrongly for being gay. It depends on your intentions and whether or not its your place to do so.

Lain · Oct 17, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
For example, say you get into a very deep friendship with someone who is gay. However, you don't know he is gay (maybe he is uncomfortable telling you for personal reasons). You've known this guy for years and one day he feels comfortable to tell you he is gay.

You still love the guy but at the same time because in scripture "homosexuality=same-sex sex therefore homosexuals are sinners" your perception of him changes in light of that label and his values. So if he married and both spouses raised children together your views (not meanly) would change in reflection to the marriage you may not agree with and his intimacy that you would say is sinful.

Your values influence how you see him as a gay person.

Of course you are still friends. Just for many gay people (and minorities) if they know you (a loved one, friend, or trusted person) doesn't love or respect them for who they are it cuts the ties. Being a gay person is a personal thing and not about what one does in the bed.

I don't know where that phrase came from but I think many gay people would feel offended. Children who come out to their friends and realize their friends see them differently (inwardly or outwardly because of religion or upbringing) sticks with them.

Adults are no different.

I fail to understand why this would mean I couldn't love such a person if I did not like their acts. All values people have influence how they see the acts of other people. Many do feel offended at the phrase but I still do not understand how one can not love someone if they want their acts to change.

Rival · Oct 17, 2021

Unveiled Artist said:
I don't know if most gay people will be heavily concerned but if he were religious its best to respect his views rather than help him align with conservative views. Unless he asks and you two were of the same spiritual understanding but it shouldn't be construed that you're helping him because he is wrong or living wrongly for being gay. It depends on your intentions and whether or not its your place to do so.

I mean if he is conservative and believes it is sinful, but also is homosexual, I would be there to help him deal with that because I believe it.

Why is religion so fascinated with homosexuality?

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