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catholics, orthodox, and protestants: can you explain the trinity?

firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Meandflower said:
@firedragon read this:

Athanasian creed

Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.

Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally.

Now this is the catholic faith:

That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity,
neither blending their persons
nor dividing their essence.
For the person of the Father is a distinct person,
the person of the Son is another,
and that of the Holy Spirit still another.
But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one,
their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.

What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has.
The Father is uncreated,
the Son is uncreated,
the Holy Spirit is uncreated.

The Father is immeasurable,
the Son is immeasurable,
the Holy Spirit is immeasurable.

The Father is eternal,
the Son is eternal,
the Holy Spirit is eternal.

And yet there are not three eternal beings;
there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings;
there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being.

Similarly, the Father is almighty,
the Son is almighty,
the Holy Spirit is almighty.
Yet there are not three almighty beings;
there is but one almighty being.

Thus the Father is God,
the Son is God,
the Holy Spirit is God.
Yet there are not three gods;
there is but one God.

Thus the Father is Lord,
the Son is Lord,
the Holy Spirit is Lord.
Yet there are not three lords;
there is but one Lord.

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone.
The Son was neither made nor created;
he was begotten from the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten;
he proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers;
there is one Son, not three sons;
there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.

Nothing in this trinity is before or after,
nothing is greater or smaller;
in their entirety the three persons
are coeternal and coequal with each other.

So in everything, as was said earlier,
we must worship their trinity in their unity
and their unity in their trinity.

Anyone then who desires to be saved
should think thus about the trinity.

But it is necessary for eternal salvation
that one also believe in the incarnation
of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully.

Now this is the true faith:

That we believe and confess
that our Lord Jesus Christ, God's Son,
is both God and human, equally.

He is God from the essence of the Father,
begotten before time;
and he is human from the essence of his mother,
born in time;
completely God, completely human,
with a rational soul and human flesh;
equal to the Father as regards divinity,
less than the Father as regards humanity.

Although he is God and human,
yet Christ is not two, but one.
He is one, however,
not by his divinity being turned into flesh,
but by God's taking humanity to himself.
He is one,
certainly not by the blending of his essence,
but by the unity of his person.
For just as one human is both rational soul and flesh,
so too the one Christ is both God and human.

He suffered for our salvation;
he descended to hell;
he arose from the dead;
he ascended to heaven;
he is seated at the Father's right hand;
from there he will come to judge the living and the dead.
At his coming all people will arise bodily
and give an accounting of their own deeds.
Those who have done good will enter eternal life,
and those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.

This is the catholic faith.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the cut and paste any one can read any time. Great work.

What is a "being" in your understanding? Thats the question. :)
 
Starlight

Starlight

Spiritual but not religious, new age and omnist
firedragon said:
Thanks for the cut and paste any one can read any time. Great work.

What is a "being" in your understanding? Thats the question. :)
Click to expand...
Being has two different meaning.

1. A being is a living thing that exist
2. being means the same as substance or essence

You and your mother has two different substances/beings/essences

God in christianity (the trinity) is like conjoined twins (in a spiritual sense, not literally). The three persons in God share the same being/substance/essence.
 
Last edited:
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
Meandflower said:
Being has two different meaning.

1. A being is a living thing that exist
2. being means the same as substance or essence

You and your mother has two different substances.
God in christianity (the trinity) is like conjoined twins (in a spiritual sense). The three persons share the same being/substance/essence
Click to expand...

Then it's an epistemological issue. So that's why one must clarify the others source of knowledge prior to making so many posts with out any clarification whatsoever.

The philosophical definition of a "being" is "anything that exists". Thats that.
 
Dogknox20

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
When you represent someone it is said you "Speak for them" OR "You speak in their name"! All you say "In their name" is as if they in person said it! Example.. The Ambassador speaks for the country! The Dean speaks for the school! The Mayor speaks for our city etc... When they speak they speak with ALL the AUTHORITY of the ones they represent! GO....

"go make disciples of all nations BAPTIZING!"

It is very clear.. Disciples are made by baptism! Disciples call Jesus brother; If Jesus is your brother then GOD would be your father! THIS...

This authority to make God' children come directly from God! Baptize them in the Name of "the FATHER" this means with all the AUTHORITY of the Father!
Baptize them in the Name of "the SON" this means with all the AUTHORITY of the Son!
Baptize them in the Name of "the HOLY SPIRIT" this means with all the AUTHORITY of the Holy Spirit! Basically it means Baptism IMMESES them into the ONLY Son of God with all the authority of God! ......IF...

If they are "IN Jesus" then they are God' children! LOOK ....3000 people were ADDED to the Body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost by "Baptism"!
40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
 
Dogknox20

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
URAVIP2ME said:
Yes, Eve was Not showing love for Adam Nor love for God. Adam blames God for giving him Eve at Genesis 3:12
At Genesis 3:13 we find that Eve blames Satan aka the Serpent. - 1 Timothy 2:14
One person said that he thought Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet was based on Adam and Eve.
He felt that Adam loved Eve so much that to the point what he did was deliberate showed Adam loved Eve.
By wilfully eating, Adam deliberately committed suicide rather than live without Eve.
The penalty for committing such a crime was capital punishment aka death.
There was No reward for their sinning, but simply ' returning ' to the dust of the ground - Genesis 3:19.
A person can Not ' return ' to a place they never were before. They went back to where Adam started.
In other words, those law breakers (A&E) did Not open up the way to Heaven. ( as we know Jesus did )
The ' will live forever ' starts with being resurrected.
There was No resurrection to ' living forever ' before Jesus died.
ALL who died before Jesus (John 3:13) did Not ascend (be resurrected) including King David - Acts of the Apostles 2:34.
That is why Acts of the Apostles 24:15 uses the future tense that there ' is going to be ' a resurrection.....
A resurrection starting with faithful Abel - Matthew 23:35 - because Jesus informs us that righteous blood starts with Abel. - Hebrews 11:4.
Since heavenly life was Not offered before Luke 22:28-30 then that means an 'earthly resurrection' starting for Adam onward.
ALL the people Jesus resurrected were brought back to life here on Earth.
Jesus was giving us a preview, a small sample, of what he is going to do during his thousand-year reign over Earth.
Jesus reigns over Earth (Not Heaven) for a thousand years.- 1 Corinthians 15:24-26
Click to expand...
.
Hello URAVIP2ME I hope all is well...
You have a lot of opinions but .. What your opinions tell me is you do NOT believe what Christians believe! Jesus is God, God sits on a throne in heaven in his KINGDOM!
The Good thief died and went to Paradise in heaven "A Garden" NOT the Kingdom!
Luke 22:43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

URAVIP2ME Paradise is a GARDEN not the Throne room!
Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
SAME...

URAVIP2ME same with John the Baptist he also died before he could be Baptized by the Church; He died before Pentecost, before the BRIDE was empowered to make God' Children!

Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
URAVIP2ME John was born of woman NOT of the CHURCH he also died before he could be RE-Born by Baptism! BOTH...

URAVIP2ME both the Thief and John died before Pentecost they were NOT God' children, they can NOT enter the throne room!
THINK: The Queen of England has over 70 million subjects today all can walk in her gardens BUT...

URAVIP2ME but only her Children can enter her throne room ONLY they have an Inheritance!
Eph 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Jesus has a KINGDOM in HEAVEN the KINGDOM is for the Baptized the CHILDREN of The Bride & the GROOM!
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Dogknox20 said:
.
Hello URAVIP2ME I hope all is well...
You have a lot of opinions but .. What your opinions tell me is you do NOT believe what Christians believe! Jesus is God, God sits on a throne in heaven in his KINGDOM!
The Good thief died and went to Paradise in heaven "A Garden" NOT the Kingdom!
Luke 22:43
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

URAVIP2ME Paradise is a GARDEN not the Throne room!
Revelation 2:7
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
SAME...

URAVIP2ME same with John the Baptist he also died before he could be Baptized by the Church; He died before Pentecost, before the BRIDE was empowered to make God' Children!

Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
URAVIP2ME John was born of woman NOT of the CHURCH he also died before he could be RE-Born by Baptism! BOTH...

URAVIP2ME both the Thief and John died before Pentecost they were NOT God' children, they can NOT enter the throne room!
THINK: The Queen of England has over 70 million subjects today all can walk in her gardens BUT...

URAVIP2ME but only her Children can enter her throne room ONLY they have an Inheritance!
Eph 5:5
For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Jesus has a KINGDOM in HEAVEN the KINGDOM is for the Baptized the CHILDREN of The Bride & the GROOM!
Click to expand...

Huh, Jesus sits on his own throne according to Revelation 3:21.
The day Jesus died (today) Jesus went to biblical hell / grave - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Truly I tell you today (,) comma after the word today,.....
No one was resurrected before God resurrected Jesus. The thief was Not resurrected the day (today) Jesus died.

Yes, paradise is a garden just as the sample Garden of Eden was a beautiful paradisical garden.
The un-baptised thief was Not promised heaven but paradise.
Yes, we find the return of the 'tree of life' when Earth will be like Eden as per Revelation 22:2.

Yes, John the Baptist and King David died before Jesus and still sleeping in death - Acts of the Apostles 2:34

Only those who are called to Heaven (Revelation 20:6; Revelation 2:10; Revelation 5:9-10) will govern with Christ over Earth. They are like the people of Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 who are called as saints of holy ones.
Whereas, humble meek people will inherit the Earth as Jesus promised - Matthew 5:5; Psalms 37:9-11.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Meandflower said:
The Bible can be interpreted in many different ways. Many christians do believe the trinity is in the Bible.
Click to expand...
Is it many christians, or the MANY who are part of 'Christendom' ( so-called Christian but mostly in name only ).
Jesus forewarned us MANY would come in his name but prove false according to Matthew 7:21-23.
 
U

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Meandflower said:
Being has two different meaning.
1. A being is a living thing that exist
2. being means the same as substance or essence
You and your mother has two different substances/beings/essences
God in christianity (the trinity) is like conjoined twins (in a spiritual sense, not literally). The three persons in God share the same being/substance/essence.
Click to expand...

In Scripture I find in the literal sense the word Being only applies to God.
That can be because God is (single) as Creator. One Creator as per Revelation 4:11.
Share same being/substance/essence seems odd to me because God's spirit appeared as a bird when Jesus was baptised.
A bird to me is Not the same ' being/substance/essence ' as God is.
Plus, to me a person can Not be poured out as God's spirit was poured out at Pentecost.
 
blü 2

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Meandflower said:
According to the trinity God is one being shared by three persons.
Click to expand...
Not quite.

Look at it this way ─ either:

the Father has his own will and Jesus has his own will and the Ghost has its own will and there are thus three distinct gods; or

God has only one will and is thus a single entity who likes to appear in one of his three usual manifestations.

But the Trinity doctrine wants it both ways, while admitting that having it both ways results in nonsense ─ or as they call it, "a mystery in the strict sense".
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Meandflower said:
Do you believe God is three beings and one being at the same time?
Click to expand...
One.

Meandflower said:
Catholic christians believe God is only one being shared by three persons. They believe in soft monotheism.
Click to expand...
"Shared" is a key word here to cover that.

Meandflower said:
Maybe the trinity doctrine can written or said to be three beings in one being instead of the formulation three persons in one Being. But the point is that they share the same Being.
Click to expand...
It's really more that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God per the use of Greek philosophy that permeated the NT as written in Koine Greek. This would have been well understood back then in the diaspora.

But it's also very important not to underestimate what "essence" in this manner states since it reflects "purpose" and "importance".
 
cataway

cataway

Well-Known Member
metis said:
One.

"Shared" is a key word here to cover that.

It's really more that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are of the "essence" of God per the use of Greek philosophy that permeated the NT as written in Koine Greek. This would have been well understood back then in the diaspora.

But it's also very important not to underestimate what "essence" in this manner states since it reflects "purpose" and "importance".
Click to expand...
did you just blink ?
 
cataway

cataway

Well-Known Member
essence
[ˈesəns]
NOUN
  1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.
to me it means like a thing but not the thing . Jesus is like his God yet he is not his God. not equal ,does not want to be equal . you know that, yet you refuse to admit it .
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
cataway said:
essence
[ˈesəns]
NOUN
  1. the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.
to me it means like a thing but not the thing . Jesus is like his God yet he is not his God. not equal ,does not want to be equal . you know that, yet you refuse to admit it .
Click to expand...
You really have labeled me 100% wrong on this as I have long agreed with the above.

OK, let me put it a different way: With the Trinitarian concept, at least from the Catholic point of view, Jesus is of God and the Holy Spirit is of God. So, are they virtually identical to God? No! If they were, we would only use one name: "God".

Again, the early Church used some Greek concepts in the writing ot the NT, especially from Aristotle whereas Jesus and the Holy Spirit are considered to be of the "essence" of God. Even the NT clearly points that out as at one point Jesus says that he does not know when the end of times would be as only the Father [God] would know that.


BTW, consider quoting what I write in your responses as I almost missed your post. I'd appreciate that.
 
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