Quoting Apocrypha

I was listening to Rabbi Skobac, well I still am, and wondered about this.

In the Christian texts, Jude quotes 1 Enoch. How do Catholics and Protestants view this, seeing as this book is not canonical for them?

The quote: It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

And for other Abrahamics, for lack of a better word, how do you view the non-canonical books?

Rival said:

I was listening to Rabbi Skobac, well I still am, and wondered about this.

In the Christian texts, Jude quotes 1 Enoch. How do Catholics and Protestants view this, seeing as this book is not canonical for them?

The quote: It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

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I see the quotation as just that 1 Enoch preserves something Enoch really did say while 1 Enoch is itself not inspired. And I say not inspired (not only just not canonical) for something can be divinely inspired but not in the canon according to me (like the Church Fathers), it is not inspired because AFAIK the calendar it presents in the text contradicts the Mosaic one, showing that it was handled by heretics (according to me). This is just something that has come down due to the many books lost in that era (this quotation) which the Fathers mention.

I have seen another view saying that this is a polemical quotation and St. Jude does not really hold that Enoch said this, I haven't looked into that much though as I don't think it is the traditional view, although I'd have to check some commentaries (if anyone comments on it much at all).

Rival said:

I was listening to Rabbi Skobac, well I still am, and wondered about this.

In the Christian texts, Jude quotes 1 Enoch. How do Catholics and Protestants view this, seeing as this book is not canonical for them?

The quote: It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him."

And for other Abrahamics, for lack of a better word, how do you view the non-canonical books?

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its amazing how people lump the popular in as exclusive to a belief system. kinda like the popular form of christianity today. the rich and affluent would have you believe.




The relation between 1 Enoch and the Essenes was noted even before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.[54] While there is consensus to consider the sections of the Book of Enoch found in Qumran as texts used by the Essenes, the same is not so clear for the Enochic texts not found in Qumran (mainly the Book of Parables): it was proposed[55] to consider these parts as expression of the mainstream, but not-Qumranic, essenic movement. The main peculiar aspects of the not-Qumranic units of 1 Enoch are the following:

• a Messiah called "Son of Man", with divine attributes, generated before the creation, who will act directly in the final judgment and sit on a throne of glory (1 Enoch 46:1–4, 48:2–7, 69:26–29)[16]: 562–563 
• the sinners usually seen as the wealthy ones and the just as the oppressed (a theme we find also in the Psalms of Solomon).

Fool said:

the israelites didn't get their torah until after the exile in egypt. that happened for a reason given moses was part of the egyptian priesthood.
its amazing how people lump the popular in as exclusive to a belief system




The relation between 1 Enoch and the Essenes was noted even before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls.[54] While there is consensus to consider the sections of the Book of Enoch found in Qumran as texts used by the Essenes, the same is not so clear for the Enochic texts not found in Qumran (mainly the Book of Parables): it was proposed[55] to consider these parts as expression of the mainstream, but not-Qumranic, essenic movement. The main peculiar aspects of the not-Qumranic units of 1 Enoch are the following:

• a Messiah called "Son of Man", with divine attributes, generated before the creation, who will act directly in the final judgment and sit on a throne of glory (1 Enoch 46:1–4, 48:2–7, 69:26–29)[16]: 562–563 
• the sinners usually seen as the wealthy ones and the just as the oppressed (a theme we find also in the Psalms of Solomon).

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Not sure what this has to do with what I said.

Rival said:

Not sure what this has to do with what I said.

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re-read. i posted two thoughts and deleted one. judiaism isn't unique. it was heavily influenced by egyptian, assyrian, and babylonian experiences. even among the present day jews there is no 100% consensus. it goes again to state of mind and level of maturity. in a belief system the person is going to suppress anything that doesn't fit within their world view; especially anything that threatens it's power to prevail over others. this is why it is doomed to fail too. the savior has to die to self and be reborn to all. this is joseph campbell's monomyth. its also what thou art that implies in hinduism and buddhism.


so when someone asks what is your god's name tell them, exodus 3:14. thou shall not take the lord's name in vain

Fool said:

re-read. i posted two thoughts and deleted one. judiaism isn't unique. it was heavily influenced by egyptian, assyrian, and babylonian experiences. even among the present day jews there is no 100% consensus. it goes again to state of mind and level of maturity. in a belief system the person is going to suppress anything that doesn't fit within their world view; especially anything that threatens it's power to prevail over others. this is why it is doomed to fail too. the savior has to die to self and be reborn to all. this is joseph campbell's monomyth. its also what thou art that implies in hinduism and buddhism.


so when someone asks what is your god's name tell them, exodus 3:14. thou shall not take the lord's name in vain

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Still has nothing to do with what I said....

Rival said:

Still has nothing to do with what I said....

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oh but it does.

there were no canons before moses and yet the righteous existed without them. the religion was created and doomed to fail like every other self-serving created thing.


it was foretold long ago that if they would not listen and obey that it would be taken from them and given to another.


Deuteronomy 28:15-68

Rival said:

And for other Abrahamics, for lack of a better word, how do you view the non-canonical books?

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Maccabees I & II are pretty cool.

Although today I saw an academic claim that the redactor of Maccabees II may have been an early Christian.

Harel13 said:

Maccabees I & II are pretty cool.

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They are. Always kind of sad they're not in Tanakh tbh Even just as a collection of texts in the back.

Harel13 said:

Although today I saw an academic claim that the redactor of Maccabees II may have been an early Christian.

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What was given as the evidence?

Harel13 said:

Maccabees I & II are pretty cool.

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Gotta love the war-speech of St. Judas in 1 Mac 3.

"Now when Seron, a prince of the army of Syria, heard say that Judas had gathered unto him a multitude and company of the faithful to go out with him to war; he said, 'I will get me a name and honor in the kingdom; for I will go fight with Judas and them that are with him, who despise the king's commandment.' So he made him ready to go up, and there went with him a mighty host of the ungodly to help him, and to be avenged of the children of Israel.

"And when he came near to the going up of Bethhoron, Judas went forth to meet him with a small company: who, when they saw the host coming to meet them, said unto Judas, 'How shall we be able, being so few, to fight against so great a multitude and so strong, seeing we are ready to faint with fasting all this day?' Unto whom Judas answered, 'It is no hard matter for many to be shut up in the hands of a few; and with the God of heaven it is all one, to deliver with a great multitude, or a small company; for the victory of battle standeth not in the multitude of an host; but strength cometh from heaven. They come against us in much pride and iniquity to destroy us, and our wives and children, and to spoil us: but we fight for our lives and our laws. Wherefore the Lord himself will overthrow them before our face: and as for you, be ye not afraid of them.'

"Now as soon as he had left off speaking, he leaped suddenly upon them, and so Seron and his host were overthrown before him. And they pursued them from the going down of Bethhoron unto the plain, where were slain about eight hundred men of them; and the residue fled into the land of the Philistines. Then began the fear of Judas and his brethren, and exceeding great dread, to fall upon the nations round about them: insomuch as his fame came unto the king, and all nations talked of the battles of Judas."

Rival said:

What was given as the evidence?

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I haven't had time to read everything yet, but one of the points was that the redactor strangely omitted mention of Matityahu from the story, even though according to Maccabees I and Jewish tradition in general, he's the one who got the rebellious ball rolling. And on the other hand, he saw fit to go on and on about certain points that have echoes in Christian theology and in the NT in particular.