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Apostle John was not the disciple, I think his gospels show this clearly.

Brian2

Veteran Member
Which apostolic father names John and quotes from the Gospel of John, in which writing? Please give the direct reference of the primary source.

Early Christian NT References
From the above site I got some early quotes, not many. I presume it is because the gospel was written so late that it had not been copied and circulated much at this stage.
https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/who-wrote-gospels
As I have posted in my last post to you from this site above Irenaeus the disciple of Polycarp, the disciple of John said that he learned from Polycarp that John the apostle had written a gospel while at Ephesus.

The Elders (95-117 A.D.) [Papias?] quote half of John 14:2 as "The Lord said". "that on this account the Lord said, 'In my Father's house are many mansions:'" fragment 5 p.154

Ignatius of Antioch (c.100-117 A.D.) alludes to John 3:8. "For it knows both whence it comes and whither it goes" Ignatius' Letter to the Philadelphians ch.7 p.83

The Epistle of Barnabas (c.70-130 A.D.) ch.6 p.141 alludes to John 1:14 "He was to be manifested in flesh, and to sojourn among us."
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
:) OK.. Let's look at this another way. (since no car was stolen) :)
I never wrote that the murderer stole the gettaway car.

In Jewish thought it is said that everything should be established with a witness of 2 or 3 (If I am not mistaken)

The book of John was the last to be written of the Gospels. The "witness" has already be established. The jury has already made a verdict and the verdict is "Jesus has died for mankind and has risen from the dead ... and the transfiguration ".
There were three witnesses at the Transfiguration, and Apostle John not even making mention of this amazing experience throws much doubt upon his sincerity, I think.

Then, years after, they come to John and the ask him, "Is there anything that you want to add to the account"? Revelation has come, confirmations have come, the baptism of the Holy Spirit has come and John said, "Absolutely!" and added to it what was already known.
....and in doing so he couldn't get all of those details which he did mention correct. And why would he have mentioned making booze at a wedding, or causing criminal damage in the Temple, whilst failing to mention the real mission that Jesus undertook?

Not to mention the fact that "The Gospels" isn't about the transfiguration as the main theme but rather the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. That is the them of which even John talked about.
The gospels told the story of the mission of Jesus, which apostle John didn't actually know about. And many of the details in his gospel are shown to be untrue when the synoptics are read.

In that he added so much more that the other three didn't mention (even about the week before the crucifixion) so we know he was there. :)
Please show some verses which describe what Jesus and the disciples did that week, leaving the last 36 hours out of it.

It was common tradition, since these aren't western historians" -- to add to the story that was given. There wasn't a "plagiarism" issue here. In oral tradition, one would speak and others would add.
So why did Luke and Matthew add Mark's verses to their own gospels? And copy other verses as well?
Apostle John added to the story alright........ uncorroborated claims, Ken


:) If you can add Matthew, Mark, Luke (who wasn't at the crucifixion or with Jesus even) - I think I can add Peter who was there and didn't mention the transfiguration. I guess it wasn't that important to Peter?
None of the disciples were there, Ken. None.
Only Magdalene, Salome and some other women had the guts to attend, watching from afar.

Hmmm... if Matthew, Mark and Luke already spoke about it -- I wouldn't have repeated what was said. Overkill. I would have added what John said . :)
If you witnessed a great event or events, you'd make mention of every detail, Ken. imo
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yes, Oral Tradition can be most accurate.
But G-John does not align with other accounts, and is ignorant of so many amzing situations that disciple John got involved in.

Christians seem to cling to G-John mostly, I think.
Let me ask you: What did Jesus and the disciples do during the first day of that last week before passover, in Jerusalem and the Temple? Do you know? Have you ever noticed?

They went sightseeing in the Temple, Brian. This will be the basis of my exhibit 4, tomorrow. :)

Your brain tells you strange things because you want to discredit John. John wrote the gospel late and probably knew what others had written and so wrote different things than the things they wrote. Why go over ground that has been covered many times when you have more things to say that have not been said?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Again... I asked for clarification... which Sunday are you talking about? Palm Sunday or the day of resurrection? I did ask, you know.
Yes...... that first day, on Palm Sunday. What did Jesus and disciples do on that day in Jerusalem and at the Temple?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Your brain tells you strange things because you want to discredit John.
I'm looking at the evidence provided in the gospels, Ken.
People who have left Christianity, their brains don't tell them strange things, Ken.

John wrote the gospel late and probably knew what others had written and so wrote different things than the things they wrote. Why go over ground that has been covered many times when you have more things to say that have not been said?
Oh no. Tomorrow I'll be featuring many of the things that Apostle John wanted to add to the story, I'll be going over Apostle John's ground in a bit of detail.

And it won't be my brain that's discrediting John, it'll be the gospels.

Tomorrow's exhibits.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Early Christian NT References
From the above site I got some early quotes, not many. I presume it is because the gospel was written so late that it had not been copied and circulated much at this stage.
https://zondervanacademic.com/blog/who-wrote-gospels
As I have posted in my last post to you from this site above Irenaeus the disciple of Polycarp, the disciple of John said that he learned from Polycarp that John the apostle had written a gospel while at Ephesus.

The Elders (95-117 A.D.) [Papias?] quote half of John 14:2 as "The Lord said". "that on this account the Lord said, 'In my Father's house are many mansions:'" fragment 5 p.154

Ignatius of Antioch (c.100-117 A.D.) alludes to John 3:8. "For it knows both whence it comes and whither it goes" Ignatius' Letter to the Philadelphians ch.7 p.83

The Epistle of Barnabas (c.70-130 A.D.) ch.6 p.141 alludes to John 1:14 "He was to be manifested in flesh, and to sojourn among us."

None of them correlate John, who it is and the Gospel of John canonised in the New Testament. None.

I appreciate your effort Brian, but you will never find any evidence. This has been done and tried a million times for a long long time by many.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
OK.
I have a very strong feeling that the disciple who Jesus loved was Magdalene. She just gets written out of most of it, and the Church would later denounce her. A Pope apologised for this deception in recent centuries, didn't he?
Mary could have been perhaps. Jayhawker points out some of her behavior towards him should be considered lude, such as wiping his feet with her hair. Just keep in mind there are several reasons to think Judas is next to him at the last supper. It also makes the betrayal more painful and more betraying if Judas is the disciple Jesus loved.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Mary could have been perhaps. Jayhawker points out some of her behavior towards him should be considered lude, such as wiping his feet with her hair. Just keep in mind there are several reasons to think Judas is next to him at the last supper. It also makes the betrayal more painful and more betraying if Judas is the disciple Jesus loved.
I would adjust that idea to 'Some of Magdalene's behaviour being affectionate'.
I cannot see Judas as being the 'particular' disciple that Jesus loved, although the condition of loved ones destroying 'the other' are very common.

Tell me, please........ that brilliant RF poster from Alaska, the lady who lives on an island, who debates so well about historical Jesus..... I forget her name. I know it's daft but I have some kind of name dyslexia. True.
 

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Tell me, please........ that brilliant RF poster from Alaska, the lady who lives on an island, who debates so well about historical Jesus..... I forget her name. I know it's daft but I have some kind of name dyslexia. True.
I don't know of anyone who lives on an island in Alaska, though I have heard rumors. Did perhaps Chris Christie move there or the ex mayor of Toronto? I've never been to Alaska, but I think about it every time I run out of allergy meds.

I would adjust that idea to 'Some of Magdalene's behaviour being affectionate'.
Its a different culture, but you could be right. Eventually I will have more of a grasp about that. I have a book about the dead sea scrolls which may shed some light on how Greek influenced they were in that area in that age. The Greeks were far more frisky and less focused upon procreation.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
There were three witnesses at the Transfiguration, and Apostle John not even making mention of this amazing experience throws much doubt upon his sincerity, I think.

Yes... Peter, James and John.

Now that you mention it, Peter didn't mention it in his epistles, James doesn't mention it and John didn't mention it.

Perhaps you are putting more emphasis in what wasn't an emphasis by those who saw it?

However, IMV, John did make a reference in as much as Jesus was the example for all men. As you mentioned, the real Jesus and who he was, was not what they saw externally but who he was spiritually and thus, "His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light." to which The Father said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!” (of course, there are dividends to listening to what Jesus said.

In reference to "transfigurations" we must realize that by nature, all of us have a nature to which our righteousness does not match God's righteousness as He said through His prophet, Isaiah "64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away."

Thus, as John speaks of a transformation, John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

So we are transfigured by God's own Spirit becoming, once again, made in His image and in His likeness... or, in other words, we have received a new heart

So, because of the work of the Cross where again, scripture tells us in Ezekiel 36:
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

So John spoke of the transfiguration that was intimated by Jesus Christ and as we believe in the work of Ps 22 and 88, the Father says "You are my beloved son in whom I am well pleased".


....and in doing so he couldn't get all of those details which he did mention correct. And why would he have mentioned making booze at a wedding, or causing criminal damage in the Temple, whilst failing to mention the real mission that Jesus undertook?

Well, neither of us are here to ask him but it did say "This is the first miracle..." Maybe that was important?

The gospels told the story of the mission of Jesus, which apostle John didn't actually know about. And many of the details in his gospel are shown to be untrue when the synoptics are read.

Why do you say he didn't know about it? Do you have a reference? As John said, "21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

Obviously there was much that he could have written about. Not enough time and papyrus?

Please show some verses which describe what Jesus and the disciples did that week, leaving the last 36 hours out of it.

Why leave the last 36 hours out of it? Is it because he was there? But as your request...

Screen Shot 2021-10-16 at 8.19.59 PM.png


Screen Shot 2021-10-16 at 8.20.12 PM.png


Please note the amount of times that John "filled in the blanks"... why? Because he was there. And you will notice that some of the other gospels didn't say exactly the same thing... they also filled in some blanks.

So why did Luke and Matthew add Mark's verses to their own gospels? And copy other verses as well?
Apostle John added to the story alright........ uncorroborated claims, Ken

There are some things in Luke, that Matthew and Mark didn't mention... so? Or... ask yourself a question, "How many letters were written at that time that said, "DON'T READ JOHN... IT IS ALL HERE-SAY OR HERESY". Zip, nothing, nada, nente, zero. Why? because no one had a problem with it.

None of the disciples were there, Ken. None.
Only Magdalene, Salome and some other women had the guts to attend, watching from afar.

Hmmmm.... How many of the gospels say that Salome was there? Only one? So... if I go by your standard, it is ok that John was there too. ;)

If you witnessed a great event or events, you'd make mention of every detail, Ken. imo

If I was writing a complete biography. But John wasn't writing that.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yes...... that first day, on Palm Sunday. What did Jesus and disciples do on that day in Jerusalem and at the Temple?
Screen Shot 2021-10-16 at 8.32.06 PM.png


Notice that John mentioned one fill in the blank and matches two of the other five. Also notice that Luke mentioned on "fill in the blank" that the other three didn't have. It is all over the table.

So your statement of just because one didn't mention something doesn't hold as a standard.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Day four. Exhibit 4.

Sightseeing, on Palm Sunday..........

On that Palm Sunday after Jesus and disciples had entered Jerusalem, they all walked in to the Great Temple and spent the whole day (what we say today) sightseeing.

They went sightseeing, and then left. That's exactly what I do when I don't often visit places, I go wandering about, looking at everything. How about you?

I don't think Northern Jews had the time or money to visit the Great Temple often, and I can perceive how the Priesthood actually engaged contractors like Saul to go North and sort out non-attendance and non-payment.

But Apostle John's gospel has Jesus and disciples visiting Jerusalem and the Temple more frequently. And three passover's occur during this gospel account. Somehow this Mission of Jesus got stretched out from 11.5 months to about three years.

This is my fourth exhibit to show that Apostle John wrote his gospel from a collection of accurate accounts, and his imagination. He certainly never was there, never was the disciple John.

Thus:-
{2:13} And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus
went up to Jerusalem, {2:14} And found in the temple .........

{2:23} Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover.....

{5:14} Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple...........

{6:4} And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh......


{7:14} Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up
into the temple, and taught...............

{7:28} Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught,

{8:2} And early in the morning he came again into the temple........

{8:20} These words spake Jesus in the treasury,
as he taught in the temple...........

{8:59} Then took they up stones to cast at him:
but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple........

{10:23} And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.......

{11:55} And the Jews’ passover was nigh at hand......
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
I don't know of anyone who lives on an island in Alaska, though I have heard rumors. Did perhaps Chris Christie move there or the ex mayor of Toronto? I've never been to Alaska, but I think about it every time I run out of allergy meds.
She was posting on RF for yonks, and lived on an Alaskan island, with her Mum, I think.
Regular members come.... and disappear. I haven't seen a post from Skwim in ages, now that I think of it.

Its a different culture, but you could be right. Eventually I will have more of a grasp about that. I have a book about the dead sea scrolls which may shed some light on how Greek influenced they were in that area in that age. The Greeks were far more frisky and less focused upon procreation.
.... and the Romans too, I think.
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Yes... Peter, James and John.
Now that you mention it, Peter didn't mention it in his epistles, James doesn't mention it and John didn't mention it.
What? The Gospel of Mark is thought to be based upon Peter's memoirs.
Peter's first letter doesn't mention any incidents from the mission......... apart from that one, Ken!
How often do you read the NT?
. {1:17} For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. {1:18} And
this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

Did James write a letter? Show me. Make sure your example is not from Brother James, Ken.

In reference to "transfigurations" we must realize that ..........
Ken.... what you must realize....is some evidence from the gospels that show Apostle John to be Disciple John..... From what was written.

Thus, as John speaks of a transformation, John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’
8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

So we are transfigured by God's own Spirit becoming, once again, made in His image and in His likeness... or, in other words, we have received a new heart
Again Ken........ you need to scrutinize the evidence written in the depositions of the gospels for any truth in all this, and spiritual speeches can't save Apostle John from the verdict. :D

So, because of the work of the Cross where again, scripture tells us in Ezekiel 36:
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Institutional Indoctrination........ can be busted by Individual Investigation.

Well, neither of us are here to ask him but it did say "This is the first miracle..." Maybe that was important?
Making lots of wine...... OK.

Why do you say he didn't know about it? Do you have a reference? As John said, "21:25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

Obviously there was much that he could have written about. Not enough time and papyrus?

Why leave the last 36 hours out of it? Is it because he was there? But as your request...

Please note the amount of times that John "filled in the blanks"... why? Because he was there. And you will notice that some of the other gospels didn't say exactly the same thing... they also filled in some blanks.
Ken...... Apostle John couldn't tell us what Jesus did on Palm Sunday (after arrival) nor what he did the next day, and he got the third day's events wrong. Many Christians do seem to focus up[on John's account of the last week with the Temple mayhem added 'somewhere'....... which is why you don't know what they did on day one (in the Temple), Palm Sunday, I'll guess.

There are some things in Luke, that Matthew and Mark didn't mention... so? Or... ask yourself a question, "How many letters were written at that time that said, "DON'T READ JOHN... IT IS ALL HERE-SAY OR HERESY". Zip, nothing, nada, nente, zero. Why? because no one had a problem with it.[/.QUOTE]

Mark's gospel is the only account of a partial witness who held the memoirs of a witness, Ken. Matthew and Luke needed to copy his deposition.......

Hmmmm.... How many of the gospels say that Salome was there? Only one? So... if I go by your standard, it is ok that John was there too. ;)
Mark's gospel says that she was there, watching from 'far off', whereas John expects me to believe that he was there with Jesus's Mother at the foot of the cross! Jesus was estranged from all his family early on in the mission, Ken, and if you think Roman Soldiers would have let Jewish people to approach the area of the crosses then you just don't get what they were like....they would have kicked and beaten folks back from their work area.

If I was writing a complete biography. But John wasn't writing that.
John blew out a 11-12 month struggle in to three years...... so he wasn't trying to be brief about the details, Ken.
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
None of them correlate John, who it is and the Gospel of John canonised in the New Testament. None.

I appreciate your effort Brian, but you will never find any evidence. This has been done and tried a million times for a long long time by many.

That the gospels are anonymous is not all that conservative scholars say of the gospels. They also acknowledge the evidence, internal and external for the people who have been passed down as authors.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
. {1:17} For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. {1:18} And
this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

LOL.... OOPS! Gotta give credit where credit is due... you are right.

Did James write a letter? Show me. Make sure your example is not from Brother James, Ken.

At first glance, I could say you just changed the goal post.

"IF" it was soooo impactful, why didn't he? As you stated, he should have (if we hold constant your position)

Ken.... what you must realize....is some evidence from the gospels that show Apostle John to be Disciple John..... From what was written.

I'm not sure what you are saying here... the 12 were all disciples and then became Apostles.

Again Ken........ you need to scrutinize the evidence written in the depositions of the gospels for any truth in all this, and spiritual speeches can't save Apostle John from the verdict. :D

LOL... you mean from your verdict.

Institutional Indoctrination........ can be busted by Individual Investigation.

Not really. Atheist J. Warner Wallace, a renown cold-case homicide investigator, set out to bust the whole of the Gospels and got busted instead by becoming a believer in Jesus, Yeshua Hamashiach.

It is all in the TaNaKh

Making lots of wine...... OK.
Superficially, if that is all you want to get out of it. For some, wine is all they need :)

Ken...... Apostle John couldn't tell us what Jesus did on Palm Sunday (after arrival) nor what he did the next day, and he got the third day's events wrong. Many Christians do seem to focus up[on John's account of the last week with the Temple mayhem added 'somewhere'....... which is why you don't know what they did on day one (in the Temple), Palm Sunday, I'll guess.

A little skewed here IMO. Not that he "couldn't" but it just wasn't the subject matter. Again... two and three had already established truth. John added to it. :)

Remember, your position was "since John didn't mention the transfiguration," he wasn't there" and yet he added to the accounts in innumerable places of the gospels meaning "he was there". And then, if we are using your standard, the other gospels didn't mention things therefore they must have not been there.

Just a very flimsy position.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Day four. Exhibit 4.

Sightseeing, on Palm Sunday..........

On that Palm Sunday after Jesus and disciples had entered Jerusalem, they all walked in to the Great Temple and spent the whole day (what we say today) sightseeing.

They went sightseeing, and then left. That's exactly what I do when I don't often visit places, I go wandering about, looking at everything. How about you?

I don't think Northern Jews had the time or money to visit the Great Temple often, and I can perceive how the Priesthood actually engaged contractors like Saul to go North and sort out non-attendance and non-payment.

But Apostle John's gospel has Jesus and disciples visiting Jerusalem and the Temple more frequently. And three passover's occur during this gospel account. Somehow this Mission of Jesus got stretched out from 11.5 months to about three years.

This is my fourth exhibit to show that Apostle John wrote his gospel from a collection of accurate accounts, and his imagination. He certainly never was there, never was the disciple John.

Thus:-
{2:13} And the Jews’ passover was at hand, and Jesus
went up to Jerusalem, {2:14} And found in the temple .........

{2:23} Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover.....

{5:14} Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple...........

{6:4} And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh......


{7:14} Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up
into the temple, and taught...............

{7:28} Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught,

{8:2} And early in the morning he came again into the temple........

{8:20} These words spake Jesus in the treasury,
as he taught in the temple...........

{8:59} Then took they up stones to cast at him:
but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple........

{10:23} And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon’s porch.......

{11:55} And the Jews’ passover was nigh at hand......


As we read the Gospel according to Ol' Badger :)
DAY 2! Exhibit 2.........

Many Christians can't actually write down what Jesus and disciples did during the first three days of that last week before Passover in Jerusalem. Apostle John couldn't either.

Most RF readers will know that Jesus and the disciples went (literally) sightseeing during all of day One before leaving for the night. This actually becomes part of exhibit three (tomorrow). But John...... no idea about any of those three days and the tumultuous events of those last two.

Below this intro is shown John's account of that last week from entry to Jerusalem on first day to the last supper/passover meal. There is nothing in between apart from a thunderous voice of God from the heavens and some conversation. Nothing.

But the Gospel of Mark tells us about those three days, as shown in precis below.
Thus, The writer of G-John (Apostle John?) was not there, and was not disciple John.

Exhibts:-
Gospel of Mark:-
{11:11} And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went
out unto Bethany with the twelve.
{11:12} And on the morrow, ........................ ]{11:15} And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves; {11:16} And would not suffer that any man should carry [any] vessel through the temple. {11:17} And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves............................... {11:19} And when even was come, he went out of the city.
{11:20} And in the morning......................... {11:27} And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders, {11:28} And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?

Gospel of John:-
John {12:1} Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead. {12:2} There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him. ......................
{12:12} On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, {12:13} Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him............................
{12:20} And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: {12:21} The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. {12:22} Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip
tell Jesus......................
{12:28} Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, [saying,] I have both glorified [it,] and will glorify [it] again. {12:29} The people therefore, that stood by, and heard [it,] said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him. .................
{12:36} While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them..................
{13:1} Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come ...............

As we continue to read the Gospel according to Ol' Badger....

Hasty Generalization. A hasty generalization bases a conclusion on too little evidence.

Yes... I found this one. This one is quite prevalent.

Fallacy of Exclusion. Leaving out evidence that would lead to a different conclusion is called the fallacy of exclusion.

Yes, I believe that one is there too. (deductive) - the fact that John did mention things that happened that week.

Fallacy of Oversimplification. In this fallacy, some aspects of an issue -- generally more subtle ones -- and their ramifications are not explored.

That one is quite obvious... but hey, it is Badger's gospel after all... and he wasn't there.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Day three. Exhibit 3.
On this thread a member posted to me thus:-
There's a book called The Disciple Whom Jesus Loved, that actually asserts that the Gospel of John is not written by John. Ir compares the somewhat arrogant stiyle of one of the "sons of thunder" to the rather meek literary voice of this writing. The conclusion was that two different people wrote these.

....... and this is exactly what I intended to offer for exhibit 3 as well.

The disciple John of the synoptics was the young son of a very smart fisherman and businessman Zebedee. Fishing taxes, boat taxes, back handers, landing fees and just surviving in fishing was a very difficult occupation and I can show more detailed info on this if asked. Zebedee was not only smart but tough to keep boat/s on Genesaret Lake. John's mother Salome was certainly a 'pushy' type as shown from the way that she went to Jesus, seeking assurances that her sons would be suitably rewarded for any risks that they might take. And she had the guts to be there, with Magdalene, when Jesus was executed.
And John himself was tough, direct, confrontational, and most probably a fighter. His nickname 'Boanerge' does not just mean 'Son of Thunder'... as an Alaskan member once wrote ,'It could mean 'Son of Violence'.

Now compare that tough young man with the Apostle John, a meek one who lay on Jesus's breast. Nah! Not Disciple John!

Here are some gospel verses to tell about John the disciple, the Galilean fisherman:
Mark {3:17} And James the [son] of Zebedee, and John the brother of James; and he surnamed them Boanerges, which is, The sons of thunder:

Mark {5:37} And he suffered no man to follow him, save Peter, and James, and John the brother
of James. {5:38} And he cometh to the house ...................................{5:40} And they laughed him to
scorn. But when he had put them all out........................

Mark {9:2} And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

Mark {9:38} And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mark {10:35} And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. {10:36} And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? {10:37} They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

Luke {9:52} And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans........ {9:53} And they did not receive him, ..........{9:54} And when his disciples James and John saw [this,] they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, ......?
LOL... you haven't met my grandson... Thunder, beat the breast, wrestle mania, but with a mushy, lay on mom, nana and papa chest.

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