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Signs from Apostles of allah, what are they?

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Muffled said:
Apostle means "sent by God". In that sense Paul is an apostle because Jesus sent Paul.

Jesus never met Paul. Paul just claim that he saw a vision which appear to be so vague and confusing based on the wording of Paul himself.

Please read in here about this issue:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20033


In truth all Christians who obey the great commandment and preach the Gospel are apostles also.

Does that mean all current christians are apostels of God the same as Moses, david, etc were?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
*Paul* said:
You have ignored what from the midst means and what thy brethren means in Deuteronomy and then to show me the context you go to some new testamant passages which are not talking about the same thing. But a mere attempt to make them talk about Muslims and mohammed, how is that answering my repsonse about what the Deuteronomy passage means??

It is about Prohet Mohammed. Arabs are the brethren of Jews. Also the verse later on says "and I shall put my words in his mouth" this is the Quran which was a verbal revelation.


Who is the YOU Jesus is talking to? It is His disciples if He were talking about muslims or mohammed He would have said THEY SHALL DELIVER THEM OR HIM UP.

Why?

The word of Jesus is to all people or just only to his disciples and the rest have nothing to do with it "including you".

Oh, i got it now, maybe because Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel but not to all human beings.



What has these koranic verses got to do with anwering your interogaters who are persucting you for following Jesus, which is what Jesus is talking about?

Simply because they are almost identical, that verse in the Holy Bible and the Quranic verses.

Did all these things come upon the Mohammed and muslims for being followers of Jesus Christ?


Yes.

So if you are comparing this with the Matthew passage are you saying Mohammed was perseucted for saying Jesus is the one true God? Of course you aren't then why are you putting these two passages together?

Did Jesus said i'm the only true God? No.

Did Jesus said i'm God? No.

Did Jesus accepted from his disciples even to call him "good master"? Simply it's No No No.

That's Jesus speaking in God's name.


Read the book of Acts for the immediate fulfillment of this passage but even more specifically it refers to the twelve He sent out to witness around Israel before He met up with them again.

The same thing happened to Mohammed. So?

To all human beings or those near to those in his vicinity?

Prophet Mohammed of course started his message with his vicinity as the history books show then after that to all people around him.


Is it? This is general advice to all those who follow Jesus and as a consequence will be tortured, maimed, raped and killed, just for following Him.

The same thing with Mohammed and his desciples.



Mt 10v32: Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

What does this have to do with the verse i mentioned?



A coincidence?? I feel as though I have missed something. I am sitting here wondering what was going through your mind as you typed these words :turtle: , truly I am baffled that you would think that the things that you posted applied to muslims and mohammed instead of Jesus followers.

To Jesus followers and to Mohammed. Please don't make this as Jesus followers against Mohammed followers because both of them were preaching the very same thing and they both asked people to believe in one God.

We are in the same boat bro. :)
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
*Paul* said:
Fulfillment:
Jn 8v28: Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself;


Do you have to jump to another Chapter to prove that. ;)

Anyway, I thought Christians say that Jesus is God. God can do nothing out of himself?

but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
Jn 12v49-50: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.


Again, this is not Jesus against Mohammed because simply all prophets speak nothing but in God's name.

Can't you see that this is Jehovah speaking by a prophet to the Jews because of their hypocrisy and mere lip service to God?? Then He likens this blinding judgement to a sealed book that the wise say they can't read becuse it is sealed and the unlearned can't read because the are unlearned. It is not a prophecy about a coming prophet. But about Judgement upon the Jews. Read Romans 11 for more details.

You are right, thanks for enlightening me and may the Lord reward you Paul. We are getting along quite great, i tell you about things which you couldn't understand in the Quran and you do the same when i don't understand specific things in the bible. :)

1Jn 4v9-10: In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Which one of them?

David or Jesus?

David is God's begotten son in Psalms 2:7.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Truth said:
It is about Prohet Mohammed. Arabs are the brethren of Jews. Also the verse later on says "and I shall put my words in his mouth" this is the Quran which was a verbal revelation.


I believe I have showed you why it is not about Mohammed if you are to insist on this interpretation then it is only right to show me how what i have said is wrong. I have shown you it's fulfillment in Jesus Christ, I have shown that in Deuteronomy the only brethren mention throughout the book are Jews and that the prophet was to be raised out of the midst or the inner part of the Jews. If I am wrong and the bible says something else then show me.

Why?
The word of Jesus is to all people or just only to his disciples and the rest have nothing to do with it "including you".
Oh, i got it now, maybe because Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel but not to all human beings.

Thats right Jesus was sent as a man to the house of Israel alone to fulfill what the prophets had wrote about HIm but the Messiahs coming was to be a blessing to all the world, from pentecost and onwards God Spirit was to be poured out upon all (races of)flesh Jew and Gentile in Jerusalem and the far off Isles as promised in the scriptures so messiahs coming was to be a blessing all over the world.



Simply because they are almost identical, that verse in the Holy Bible and the Quranic verses.
Which proves what?

Show me in the koran or hadith how mohammed or his followers are persecuted for believing in Jesus.

Did Jesus said i'm the only true God? No.


Did Jesus said i'm God? No.
He didn't go around saying I am God, He proved it. He exercised authority over all of creation, He forgave sins, He accepted worship, He called people to belieev on Him, He called people to believe His word, He claimed pre-existence, He claimed it was Him the prophets spoke of (Isaiah (9:6),He claimed to be self existent "before Abraham was I AM", for which He was accused of blaspemy, Jehovah says they shall look on ME whom they have pierced, and shall morn for HIM. You make the same mistakes the Jews made and share their unbelief to this day remember some of them in Jesus day acknowledged He was a prophet but it wasn't enough.

Did Jesus accepted from his disciples even to call him "good master"? Simply it's No No No.
That's Jesus speaking in God's name.
Mt 19v16: And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mt 19v17: And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Lets look at the passage, it's not as straight forward as you think:
A young gentleman and a ruler (luke 18:18) come to Jesus to seek how he may earn heaven by doing good. Jesus immediatly points out to Him that there is none good but God (therefore this young ruler no matter how much good he does will never be considered good in the sight of God, Rom 3v20: Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. In this account we are shown how this man offered his self righteousness as a hope for heaven and came short.
Jesus by saying why callest thou me good is not reproving the young ruler for calling Him good but is raising the stakes as if to say if you are going to call me good then don't merely call me master or teacher. The young ruler only intended to honour Jesus as a good man maybe even a prophet but Jesus was leading him to honour Him as the good God. Christ will have this young man either know him to be God, or not call him good; this teaches us to transfer to God all the praise that is at any time given to us. Do any call us good? Let us tell them all goodness is from God, and therefore not to us, but to him give glory. Soli Deo Gloria, All crowns must lie before his throne.
Jesus rather than discouraging the man from doing good and thus setting a horrible moral precedent tells him to keep the commandments to bring him to the realisation that he has not and cannot do this well enough, this is the purpose of the Law to show Gods goodness and mans depravity. The Law is the standard and we fall way short of it everytime we break it. Jesus seeing into them mans heart stops His mouth and self righteousness and points to His sin and breaks his heart: Mt 19v21: Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Mt 19v22: But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. The young man though a good moral person compared to other men nevertheless fell short of Gods goodness and earning eternal life and was guilty of the love of mammon. Then the lesson from this is expounded by Jesus Christ: Mt 19v23-24: Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
You cannot have two masters you can't be a slave to God and a slave to riches, if you are not a slave to riches then you would willingly give them up or anything that has a place in your heart. God demands a total submission in our hearts to Him and nothing can be above Him in our hearts. He wants all of us our whole life not a part of it not three quarters but ALL. Which has always been sound Christian doctrine:
Rom 12v1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

I will answer the rest of you post later if the Lord tarries.

Heb 10v9-10: Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Truth said:
Do you have to jump to another Chapter to prove that. ;)
Anyway, I thought Christians say that Jesus is God. God can do nothing out of himself?
There are things He did as God and things He did as Man a Mediator must represent both parties seeking reconciliation.


You are right, thanks for enlightening me and may the Lord reward you Paul. We are getting along quite great, i tell you about things which you couldn't understand in the Quran and you do the same when i don't understand specific things in the bible. :)
Well i am glad that you are not unteachable, it is admirable and wise to let go of any falsehood no matter who you are, may this mind be in us all.:)

Which one of them?
David or Jesus?
David is God's begotten son in Psalms 2:7.
This is speaking prophetically of MEssiah and is applied to Jesus elsewhere in the bible especially this:
Ps 2v8: Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. This will be fulfilled at His return. Maranatha!.

and if you read on look who comes up before he ever was born:
Ps 2v12: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him. Praise the Lord, Hallelujah.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Truth said:
To Jesus followers and to Mohammed. Please don't make this as Jesus followers against Mohammed followers because both of them were preaching the very same thing and they both asked people to believe in one God.

I am going to explore this claim if the Lord gives me the time. Did Jesus preach the same thing Mohammed did?
Of course the only point of reference will be the koran, the Hadith and the Bible
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
*Paul* said:
I believe I have showed you why it is not about Mohammed if you are to insist on this interpretation then it is only right to show me how what i have said is wrong. I have shown you it's fulfillment in Jesus Christ, I have shown that in Deuteronomy the only brethren mention throughout the book are Jews and that the prophet was to be raised out of the midst or the inner part of the Jews. If I am wrong and the bible says something else then show me.

Why it doesn't say out of the inner part of the jews or sons of Israel?

The bible is full of things about sons of Israel except in this case, why is that?

Mohammed is from the sons of Ishamel so he is from their brethren. If not, can you please tell me how Moses is like Jesus?

My prove that Mohammed is like Moses but Jesus Christ is unlike Moses.

Please read the first post in this thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19750

This is my prove that Mohammed is like Moses. If you claim that it's not about Mohammed so show me how Jesus is like Moses.

Thats right Jesus was sent as a man to the house of Israel alone to fulfill what the prophets had wrote about HIm but the Messiahs coming was to be a blessing to all the world, from pentecost and onwards God Spirit was to be poured out upon all (races of)flesh Jew and Gentile in Jerusalem and the far off Isles as promised in the scriptures so messiahs coming was to be a blessing all over the world.

Wait a second, i thought that Jesus is the Messiah !!!

Was there two persons out there?



Which proves what?

Fulfillment.

Show me in the koran or hadith how mohammed or his followers are persecuted for believing in Jesus.

We all believe in Jesus, that he was a true prophet of God and that he will come again before the judgement day.

He didn't go around saying I am God, He proved it. He exercised authority over all of creation, He forgave sins, He accepted worship, He called people to belieev on Him, He called people to believe His word, He claimed pre-existence, He claimed it was Him the prophets spoke of (Isaiah (9:6),He claimed to be self existent "before Abraham was I AM", for which He was accused of blaspemy, Jehovah says they shall look on ME whom they have pierced, and shall morn for HIM. You make the same mistakes the Jews made and share their unbelief to this day remember some of them in Jesus day acknowledged He was a prophet but it wasn't enough.

Explain for me this please.

and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

God can do nothing?

Also please explain these verses for me:

“ Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” (Matthew 4:10 AV), “But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24 Av). As we see, Jesus (Jehoshua) said all worship should be directed to his father.

Jesus was leading him to honour Him as the good God.

Wow Paul, i'm truly happy because you are giving it a time of yours and effort to contribute in here and share with me your deep and true faith. :)

Just i would like to ask more in this issue of you don't mind.

Did Jesus in the whole bible ever asked people to call him God or good God?


By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Was Jesus feeling ok with offering his body for the sins of the world?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
*Paul* said:
There are things He did as God and things He did as Man a Mediator must represent both parties seeking reconciliation.

I'm confused in here. Jesus was a man or God?

Why if he was God, he said that he can do nothing out of himself?


Well i am glad that you are not unteachable, it is admirable and wise to let go of any falsehood no matter who you are, may this mind be in us all.:)

Amen. :)

This is speaking prophetically of MEssiah and is applied to Jesus elsewhere in the bible especially this:
Ps 2v8: Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. This will be fulfilled at His return. Maranatha!.

and if you read on look who comes up before he ever was born:
Ps 2v12: Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him. Praise the Lord, Hallelujah.

This can be said for David too because he is the begotten son of God too, isn't it?

*Paul* said:
I am going to explore this claim if the Lord gives me the time. Did Jesus preach the same thing Mohammed did?

Of course the only point of reference will be the koran, the Hadith and the Bible

Waiting for your reply also on my post # 36 so we don't go far from the original discussion. :)
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Truth said:
Are you being sarcastic in here, Paul? I said Mohammed and you come and mention for me abu hamza?
I thought you are much better than that.
No, he is the only high profile muslim that has been in britain that is a household name.

Anyway, let me tell you somthing, did Jesus went to every country in this world and into every house and ask people to believe in him or he was sent from God so everyone hear of him and his true message believe in his message?
No He said go into all the world and make disciples baptising them in the Name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost. Spirit filled Christians went through out the whole known world preaching the gospel.


Sorry, i guess there is a misunderstanding in here, there is no such thing as a prophet if he was believing an lying or an evil spirit but when you say that person is a prophet from God so it means he recieved the true revelation of God.
No, there are false prophets who have believed revelations they have had from angels and people hold them to be prophets, though they are not truly prophets of God they are still thought of as such by their followers.



You didn't prove for me until now why can't he be the promised prophet and what are the lies which he spread.
Simple, He denies the gospel, that Jesus died and rose again any "prophet" bearing this message is a false prophet.
This is in the very core of this thread because you are claiming that he is not a prophet of God while your own scripture say so.
No it doesn''t.
Don't just deny it but prove that denial based on facts and analyzing and testing the possible meanings for the scriptures. If both of us just kept denying anything which we don't like so that's not a discussion, not even debating. If it was a weak argument, tell me why, that's all.
Jesus said, (mark this in your mind, the very words of Jesus after His resurection):

Lk 24v25: Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Lk 24v26: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Lk 24v27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

If He didn't suffer those things we believe then He was never the Christ, beginning at Moses He taught those people all the things written of HIM in the Old Testament.

Jn 5v39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Jn 5v40: And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

You are looking for Mohammed in the old testament but if you look for Jesus in there you will be amazed.

Can you please back up this claim.
Sure all who reject the gospel that Jesus died for their sins and rose again for their justification are decieved:
2Cor 4v2-4But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Rom 4v25: Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Rom 5v1: Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

So Moses is God too?
Is that what I said? No you are just being arguementative. I said the typology between them is incredible. That means that Moses was a type or a foreshadowing of the coming messiah,
Deut 18v15: The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

So prophet Mohammed heard and guessed all of these details in their books?

Just wow. I hope you can back up this claim too.
As i said, I was guessing.


Wait, let me understand this.
Are you saying that prophet Mohammed must have been contacted with a supernatural being and he told him about what is needed to be the promised prophet?
Does angel Gabriel ring a bell to you?
What i conclude from what you said is that ..
1- You believe some supernatural being contacted with him.
I know that the being called himself Gabriel but I believe that it was a fallen angel posing as Gabriel with the intention of deceiving mohammed and those who would follow him. The being taught him how to read and all those other things you say are miraculous. The promised prophet was Jesus Christ if, if this angel told Mohammed that it was him then that is further evidence that it decieved him. Mohammed himself doubted the revelation at first and thought it was a jin as this being pressed hard upon him.

And how did he test whether this being was an angel from God or a deciever? I know but i want you to tell me and explain how that works.

Gal 1v8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1v9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.


If i understood this correctly so you have no more excuse to say that he wasn't prophet of God.
I don't think you did. I never had and don't deny that Mohammed had a revelation from a supernatural being but it was not from God i'm afraid.:( Many people recieve revelations from beyond even in modern days.

Show me which verse in the Quran does it say so.
I posted it in my debate with Muhjaheed Mohammed. I don't have the time now, he never denied it.

And since 1400 years and Islam is growing and considered to be the fastest growing religion. Isn't it this enough to you?
2Thes 2v3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1Tm 4v1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
I will not join the rushing crowds to join Islam but will stay true to my LORD and Redeemer.

So if a person never heard about Islam, and was never warned clearly, Allah would have a special test for that person that He knows is equal to the chance that person would have had on earth.
I see, fair enough, point conceded but I wouldn't mind a verse fromt he koran to back up what you say.

And i respect that in you Paul. :)
I hope you are the same too, the only allegience you owe is to you creator, DO YOU KNOW HIM?
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
*Paul* said:
No, he is the only high profile muslim that has been in britain that is a household name.

So why to mention him?

We are talking about prophet Mohammed, the last prophet.

Some prophets have believed lying spirits

No, there are false prophets who have believed revelations they have had from angels and people hold them to be prophets, though they are not truly prophets of God they are still thought of as such by their followers.

I know, there are false prophets but those false prophets contacted no spirit but only their ego and the falsehood in their mind.

Simple, He denies the gospel, that Jesus died and rose again any "prophet" bearing this message is a false prophet.

Prophet Mohammed didn't deny the gospel. If he did so, show me where?

Jesus didn't die but it apppeared to them as he died. The one who died is someone who looks like Jesus but not Jesus himself. (this will drag us to a new thread if you want, maybe one-on-one).

No it doesn''t.

Jesus said, (mark this in your mind, the very words of Jesus after His resurection)

Before i go into that, you say that the verses you mentioned is after his resurection, right?

Was he a soul back then or in a normal body?

You are looking for Mohammed in the old testament but if you look for Jesus in there you will be amazed.

Both of them are there. :)

Sure all who reject the gospel that Jesus died for their sins and rose again for their justification are decieved:

Did Jesus said so, or someone else?

Jesus never mentioned in the whole bible, not even once, that he will die for the sins of the world.

Is that what I said? No you are just being arguementative.

Please Paul, don't judge me.

I said the typology between them is incredible. That means that Moses was a type or a foreshadowing of the coming messiah,
Deut 18v15: The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Dear Paul, according to christianity, Jesus is God but Moses is a man. How on earth can God be like a man?

As i said, I was guessing.

Please don't guess if you can't back your claim up because we only deal in here with proofs.

I know that the being called himself Gabriel but I believe that it was a fallen angel posing as Gabriel with the intention of deceiving mohammed

Do you have any proof that it was as you described or it's just another guess of yours?

The promised prophet was Jesus Christ if, if this angel told Mohammed that it was him then that is further evidence that it decieved him.

No, he didn't tell he came instead of Jesus. Please please please try to understand that we believe in Jesus but another prophet came after him called Mohammed, the last prophet.

And how did he test whether this being was an angel from God or a deciever? I know but i want you to tell me and explain how that works.

If you know so no need to tell.

Gal 1v8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Gal 1v9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Jesus said so?

I don't think you did. I never had and don't deny that Mohammed had a revelation from a supernatural being but it was not from God i'm afraid.:(

OK, let's find out whether it was from God or not as long as you believe he indeed recieved a revelation.

We can see in (John 1:20-21):

1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
and:
1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet.

Where is that prophet, Paul?

If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE",

So, as you can see, Christ is not that prophet according to the bible.

You believe in Jesus, isn't it, what did Jesus said?

"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you". (HOLY BIBLE) John 16:7

" And remember, 'Isa, the son of Maryam, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said, "This is evident sorcery! " (Holy Quran) surah saf 16:6

I posted it in my debate with Muhjaheed Mohammed. I don't have the time now, he never denied it.

Please, just show me where in the Quran does it say so as i'm using the bible to show you what i'm talking about.


2Thes 2v3: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
1Tm 4v1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I agree with you, may God save us and his servants from these false doctrines of devils.

But, do you think that the Quran is the work of the devil?

I will not join the rushing crowds to join Islam but will stay true to my LORD and Redeemer.

You don't have to rush, if it was the truth, then God will lead you to it if your heart was true. :)

I see, fair enough, point conceded but I wouldn't mind a verse fromt he koran to back up what you say.

[40] Allah is never unjust in the least degree: if there is any good (done) He doubleth it, and giveth from His own presence a great reward. (Quran 4:40)

[44] Verily Allah will not deal unjustly with man in aught: it is man that wrongs his own soul. (Quran 10:44)

Even if someone did wrong things Allah will forgive him/her if he/she repented to him.

[110] If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Quran 4:110)

Now show me please, if a baby wasn't baptized, will he/she enter to heaven or hell?

Please provide your answer with a proof from the bible.

I hope you are the same too, the only allegience you owe is to you creator, DO YOU KNOW HIM?



Hear, O Israel:...thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deuteronomy 6:4,5

Jesus said...This is the first and great commandment. Matthew 22:37,38

If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23
Which God is this, God "in heaven" or God whom you believe in "Jesus"?


P.S. I feel that i'm rushing in here so i'll give you time to answer all my posts starting it with post # 47,48 then lastly post # 50. Take your time. :)
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Truth said:
Why it doesn't say out of the inner part of the jews or sons of Israel?
What would be the point, he was addressing them in the first person, look:
Deut 18v15: The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

The bible is full of things about sons of Israel except in this case, why is that?
He is talking directly to them if were to say to you jason is going to visit The Truth and The Truth will welcome him in and Jason and The Truth will eat lunch together, you would think I meant another person called The Truth wouldn't you?

Mohammed is from the sons of Ishamel so he is from their brethren.
THY Brethren all through Deuteronomy is used for the Jews or Israelites lets look if you don't believe me then tell me why it would mean the Ishmaelites in this one case:

Deut 15v7: If there be among you a poor man of one of thy brethren within any of thy gates in thy land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not harden thine heart, nor shut thine hand from thy poor brother:

Deut 17v15: Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

Deut 18v15: The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Deut 24v14: Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:

And not only that but anytime someone else is meant by brethren it says which ones, the edomites for example, it doesn't leave you to guess.

If not, can you please tell me how Moses is like Jesus?
My prove that Mohammed is like Moses but Jesus Christ is unlike Moses.
Please read the first post in this thread.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19750
This is my prove that Mohammed is like Moses. If you claim that it's not about Mohammed so show me how Jesus is like Moses.
I will and it will be a joy and strengthen my faith further, i'll do a seperate post dedicated to it.

Wait a second, i thought that Jesus is the Messiah !!!

Was there two persons out there?



DId I say otherwise?

We all believe in Jesus, that he was a true prophet of God and that he will come again before the judgement day.

Jn 8v23-25: And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
Isa 41v4: Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa 43v10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43v13: Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?

Lk 2v11: For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
Isa 45v21: Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me
Isa 45v15: Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isa 43v11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

Explain for me this please.
and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
SImple, part of Jesus coming to earth was to live as a man should live on our behalf so that His righteousness would be imputed to us who believe. As a man Jesus submitted Himself completely to the fathers will, He walked in complete obedience for us nullifying Adams disobedience, this is why He is the Second Adam. Those who are born again are no longer of adams race but are sons (adopted not begotten) of God.
If you can't differentiate the things Jesus did as a man to reconcile us to God and things He did as God to bring God to us then it is no wonder you get confused.
There was a solid steel wall between us and God and still is if you have not been born again and this wall is sin this is what Jesus came to break down, that our sins would no longer be imputed to us but that we should be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Do you see the Jewish host? There is a scapegoat brought out. The high priest confesses the sin of the people over the scapegoats head. The sin is all gone from the people and laid upon the scapegoat. Away goes the scapegoat into the wilderness. Is there any sin left on the people? If there is then the scapegoat has not carried it away. Because it cannot be both here and there, it cannot be carried away and left behind, too. "No", say you, "Scripture says the scapegoat carried away the sin; there was none left on the people when the scapegoat had taken away the sin".
And so, when by faith we put our hand upon the head of Christ, does Christ take away our sin, or does He not? If He does not, then it is of no use our believing in Him. But if He really does take away our sin, then our sin cannot be on us and on Him too. If it is on Christ, we are free, clear, accepted, justified. This is the true doctrine of justification by faith. As soon as a man believes in Christ Jesus, his sins are gone from him, and gone away forever. They are blotted out now.
Charles Haddon Spurgeon
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Truth said:
Also please explain these verses for me:

“ Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.” (Matthew 4:10 AV),
The Lord Thy God is a trinity so does not exclude the Son, which is why He accepts worship elsewhere.
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24 Av). As we see, Jesus (Jehoshua) said all worship should be directed to his father.
Where does this say that all worship should be directed to the Father? It says that the Father seeks a certain kind of worship, i.e in Spirit and Truth ( not in ritual observance or duty / obligation). This does not exclude The Son.

Wow Paul, i'm truly happy because you are giving it a time of yours and effort to contribute in here and share with me your deep and true faith. :)

Did Jesus in the whole bible ever asked people to call him God or good God?
That would be like asking someone to tell you they love you, it would be valueless and empty. Instead He proved who He was by fulfilling the prophecies concerning Him and pointed them to the scriptures constantly.
Was Jesus feeling ok with offering his body for the sins of the world?
It was a selfless act of Love and self sacrifce, what pleased Him never came into the equation but complete obedience to do His Fathers will.
Jn 8v29: And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.
Ps 40v7: Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Ps 40v8: I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

Heb 10v7: Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Truth said:
I'm confused in here. Jesus was a man or God?

Hypostatic union, He was both without ceasing to be One or the other. A body of flesh with the Fulness of the Godhead in that flesh.
1Tm 3v16: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Col 2v9-10: For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


Why if he was God, he said that he can do nothing out of himself?
Because as a man He came to live a life in complete obedience to Gods will on our behalf.
Phil 2v5-8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


This can be said for David too because he is the begotten son of God too, isn't it?
This was speaking of Messiah look at the next few verses:

Ps 2v7-12: I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.


Dan 7v13-14: I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


There you have the Son of man recieving the heathen for His inheritance.


Rv 12v5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Verse 2 says:
Ps 2v2: The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
His anointed = mashiyach (hebrew) Christos (greek).

Acts 13v33: God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Truth said:
So why to mention him?
If you remeber I was asking who was the messenger to england since every nation has it's messenger, you have since said that it is mohammed too all antions.


I know, there are false prophets but those false prophets contacted no spirit but only their ego and the falsehood in their mind.
I believe they are contaced by real devils posing as angels or benevolent beings. People have wrote whole books under such inspiration some from beings claiming to be people from hundreds of years ago and using the exact terminology that a person would have wrote with in that time, such things have been verified and were impossible for the people to have known by themselves.

Prophet Mohammed didn't deny the gospel. If he did so, show me where?
It says Jesus didn't die on the cross, this is the heart of the Christian gospel.

Before i go into that, you say that the verses you mentioned is after his resurection, right?
Was he a soul back then or in a normal body?
Neither. A ressurection body.

Both of them are there. :)
Sorry but I disagree.

Did Jesus said so, or someone else?
Jesus never mentioned in the whole bible, not even once, that he will die for the sins of the world.
Jn 3v14-16: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Lifted up on a cross - that whosever believeth on Him will have everlasting life.
Mt 26v27-28: And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Blood shed in sacrifice for the remission of sins.

Please Paul, don't judge me.
Don't say I am judging you that is very judgmental of you to say so.:p

Dear Paul, according to christianity, Jesus is God but Moses is a man. How on earth can God be like a man?
You are missing the point that Jesus was to be like Moses in His incarnation as a man.

Do you have any proof that it was as you described or it's just another guess of yours?
My proof is that He recieved a revelation that denies the gospel, says Jesus was created, that would be proof enough for a start for any Christian.

No, he didn't tell he came instead of Jesus. Please please please try to understand that we believe in Jesus but another prophet came after him called Mohammed, the last prophet.
But taught contrary to him:
Jn 10v30: I and my Father are one.
Jn 10v36: Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jn 12v32-33: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
This he said, signifying what death he should die.



If you know so no need to tell.

I know how but I don't know how it proves whether it was a divine revelation or not, I was asking you to explain how it works not what he did.

Jesus said so?

Jn 14v6: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

OK, let's find out whether it was from God or not as long as you believe he indeed recieved a revelation.
We can see in (John 1:20-21):
1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? and he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
and:
1:25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet.
Where is that prophet, Paul?
If we look up any Bible which has a concordance or cross-references, the we will find in the marginal note where the words "the Prophet", or "that Prophet" occur in John 1:25, that these words refer to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 18:15 and 18. And that 'that prophet' - 'the prophet like Moses' - "LIKE UNTO THEE",
So, as you can see, Christ is not that prophet according to the bible.
You believe in Jesus, isn't it, what did Jesus said?

Thats John the baptist saying I am not that prophet not Jesus. Bu tsee who He pointed them to:
Jn 1v26-27: John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.

Jesus is that prophet. The jews believed in two messiahs.

"Nevertheless, I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you". (HOLY BIBLE) John 16:7

" And remember, 'Isa, the son of Maryam, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs they said, "This is evident sorcery! " (Holy Quran) surah saf 16:6
Jn 14v26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
If you want to say Jesus is wrong then go ahead but please don't pretend the bible says something it doesn't, if Mohammed was the comforter then Jesus was wrong and was mistaken and a false prophet.

Please, just show me where in the Quran does it say so as i'm using the bible to show you what i'm talking about.

This is what Mujaheed Mohammed said:
Actually our Quran says the Christians and the Jews changed the word of God after they recieved His covenant and guidance. You altered the commands of God taking the rights of God from His creation and putting your own laws and commands in making yourselves more superior in the eyes of man. Then you changed it to the extent that now you are saying God has a son literally. When He is the Creator. You give characteristics of the creation to the Creator and take characteristics of things only the Creator can possess and attribute them to yourselves. The Quran says the creation of Adam is similar to the creation of Jesus. "Be" and it becomes. For the Creator only needs to will something into being for it to exist. it is to easy and you guys make it difficult for there has to be a condition. You put conditions on the Creator when He is the One who sets the Limits.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44340&page=8
So ask him. I've read it myself but don't feel like searching the koran today as my computer is slow and it is a pain to open more browsers.
Now show me please, if a baby wasn't baptized, will he/she enter to heaven or hell?
Please provide your answer with a proof from the bible.
Paradise / Heaven. where Kind David would have gone
2Sam 12v23: But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Hear, O Israel:...thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deuteronomy 6:4,5
Jesus said...This is the first and great commandment. Matthew 22:37,38
If a man love Me, he will keep My words: and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him, and make our abode with him. John 14:23
Which God is this, God "in heaven" or God whom you believe in "Jesus"?
The Lord Thy God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Jn 3v13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.




Ti 2v13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
At Moses birth, the Pharaoh wanted all Hebrew boys killed. Exodus 1:15-16
At Christ’s birth, Herod wanted all Hebrew children killed. Matthew 2:16

Moses, a Hebrew, was actually a prince and heir to Egypt. Acts 7:21-22; ... Hebrews 11:24; Exodus 2:10
Christ, a carpenter’s son, was actually heir of all things. Hebrews 1:2; Philippians 2:6-2:8

Moses lay down his position on the throne of Egypt, seeing their burdens.. Hebrews 11:24-25
Jesus, seeing His people’s oppression, became a servant in the likeness of men. Philippians 2:6-8

Moses was rejected when he came unto his brethren, saying who made you a ruler and a judge over us. Exodus 2:11-14; Acts 7:23-27
Jesus was rejected as He came unto His people and was accused of using the power of the devil. Matthew 27:22; ... Matthew 12:24

After his rejection, Moses took a Gentile Bride. Exodus 2:15-16; Exodus 2:21-22
Christ is now gathering together His mostly Gentile Bride of Christ. 2 Corinthians 11:2

Moses went out to his brethren and he looked on their burdens. Ex. 2:11 ...ye make them rest from their burdens. Ex. 5:5
Jesus: Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest... Matt.11:28

Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind. Ex. 14:21
What manner of man is this, that even the winds and the seas obey Him? Matt. 8:27

Israel didn’t understand why when the king of Egypt died, that their bondage being increased, asked Why God?, Exodus 2:23
His disciples didn’t understand why their Messiah had to go to the cross. The church age a mystery. Matthew 16:21-23; John 19:10-11; Acts 1:3-7

How long shall this man be a snare unto us?, Ex. 10:7
A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense, 1 Pet. 2:8

They be almost ready to stone me, Ex.17:4
Then took they up stones to cast at Him, John 8:59

Moses, took twelve men of you. Deut. 1:23
Jesus, And he ordained twelve, that they might be with Him. Mark 3:13,14

Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of the people. Num. 11:16
Jesus, The Lord appointed other seventy also. Luke 10:1

God heard their groaning, and remembered His covenant with Abraham. Exodus 2:24-25
God will hear the cry of Israel, and remember His covenant with Abraham. Romans 11:27

The Lord sends His deliverer, Moses to set His people free from Egyptian bondage. Exodus 3:7-10
The Lord will send Himself, to deliver Sirael after the Tribulation. Romans 11:26-28

The Lord sent judgment upon Egypt, Moses, the only one worthy, “broke the seals” of judgment on Egypt. Exodus 7:2-5
Christ will be the only One worthy to open the seals of judgment on the antichrist. Revelation 5:6-9

The Pharaoh’s heart was hardened with the judgments of God on Egypt, Exodus 7:10-13
The world’s heart will be hardened with the judgments of God on the world. Revelation 16:9-11

Through judgment, Israel is delivered out of Egypt. Exodus 14:8-14
Through judgment, Israel will be delivered out of the Tribulation. Romans 11:25-29

When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said... we don't know what has happened to him." Ex.32:1
Where is the promise of His coming?, 2 Pet 3:3,4

Moses, His servant, Ps.105:26... Jesus, My Servant, Matt. 12:18

Moses, The prophet, Deut.18:15-19... Jesus, The Prophet, John 6:14, Luke 7:16

Moses, Priest, Ps.99:6... Jesus, Priest....Heb. 7:24

Moses, King, Deut.33:4,5... Jesus, King....Acts 17:7

Moses, Shepherd....Ex. 3:1... Jesus, Shepherd, John 10:11,14

Moses, Mediator, Ex. 33:8,9... Jesus, Mediator....1 Tim. 2:5

Moses, Intercessor....Num. 21:7... Jesus, Intercessor, Rom. 8:34

Moses, Judge, Ex. 18:13... Jesus, Judge, John 5:27, Mat.25:31-46

For more information see :
http://biblia.com/jesusbible/exodus1b.htm

This is a well known fact and interpretation amongst Christians.
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Dear Paul, thanks again for your amazing posts and i'll come back to respond to them as soon as possible because i have some exams these days. Just to let you know, i like that you stand and defend your faith the way you understand it, and i learnt from you alot of things about Christianity in this discussion more than anytime. Only few people can stay and discuss these issues openely the way you do. Thanks :)

I'll see you soon "God willing".
 

*Paul*

Jesus loves you
The Truth said:
Dear Paul, thanks again for your amazing posts and i'll come back to respond to them as soon as possible because i have some exams these days. Just to let you know, i like that you stand and defend your faith the way you understand it, and i learnt from you alot of things about Christianity in this discussion more than anytime. Only few people can stay and discuss these issues openely the way you do. Thanks :)

I'll see you soon "God willing".

And may I wish you every success in your exams and congratulate you on your attitude in this thread. Thank you for your kind words.

Don't feel pressured to respond to this thread further if you don't wish to as i'm sure there are plenty of other threads going that you may want to post on and it is easy to lose your flow if you stay away from a thread for a few days.

I look forward to hearing from you again if the Lord tarries.

:highfive:
 

fullyveiled muslimah

Evil incarnate!
I don't havea lot of time to post and don't know when I will be back, but the posts of likeness between Jesus and Moses are lovely. However, these same likenesses can be said for Muhammad as well. I think that is an issue for thought. Muhammad is very much like Moses in alot of respects. I think it would do well for Truth to list them, or perhaps you would like to find them and list them here yourself Paul.

I am happy about the attitude taken in this thread, and look forward to responding further if possible.
 

des

Active Member
I'm not Muslim (and maybe a little knowledge is a dangerous thing) but I have been reading "No god but God" by Reza Aslan. He has talked about "signs" in Islam and in the Arab world at that time in comparison to signs to the ancient Israelis and later to those following Jesus.

In Moses day, a sign was essentially "magic'-- for instance turning a staff into a snake. Elijah (I think) also had a contest with God (Yahweh) burning something. Yahweh won hands down over the pagan god.

In Jesus day it was healing and exorcism.

But in Mohammed's day it was language. The language in the Quaran was considered the most noble, pure, and beautiful. In fact, at one point Mohammed challenges the pagans to prove their gods by coming up with poetry like that which he claimed came from Allah.


(BTW, there are corrallaries in our cultures. Black ministers are considered especially capable and spiritual if they are the most poetic. This was part of the power of Martin Luther King's initial impact. I think there is even a term for this in the Black community. This was not in Aslan's book.)

Anyway, I think that Aslan's views are a great little piece of perspective for Westerners and non-Muslims.

--des
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi thereeeeee, i'm back finally after finishing my exams i have the chance now to post and discuss again in RF. :)

*Paul* said:
What would be the point, he was addressing them in the first person.

Ok, let me be clear on somthing first. Do you believe that Ishamael is the son of Abraham or not?

DId I say otherwise?

You said so, see here.

Thats right Jesus was sent as a man to the house of Israel alone to fulfill what the prophets had wrote about HIm but the Messiahs coming was to be a blessing to all the world.

Isa 43v10: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 43v13: Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Isa 45v15: Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.
Isa 43v11: I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

You are mixing verses in here and that will make our task harder.

In the verses you mentioned above first in Isa 43. Who is the one talking?

I believe he was God unless you think otherwise.

To Israel the Lord says: I am thy God; I will gather thy seed; beside me there is no Savior; ye are my witnesses.
1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have aredeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.


So? What do you want to prove in here?

This is God talking not Jesus !!!

SImple, part of Jesus coming to earth was to live as a man should live on our behalf so that His righteousness would be imputed to us who believe. As a man Jesus submitted Himself completely to the fathers will, He walked in complete obedience for us nullifying Adams disobedience, this is why He is the Second Adam. Those who are born again are no longer of adams race but are sons (adopted not begotten) of God.
If you can't differentiate the things Jesus did as a man to reconcile us to God and things He did as God to bring God to us then it is no wonder you get confused.
There was a solid steel wall between us and God and still is if you have not been born again and this wall is sin this is what Jesus came to break down, that our sins would no longer be imputed to us but that we should be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Charles Haddon Spurgeon

Well, what i know so far through the scriptures that Jesus was just a man and he never claimed to be God. If you want to believe that he was God so that's ok with me but you didn't bring a single proof that Jesus said he was God.

Hmmmm, maybe he was a humble God? :rolleyes:

*Paul* said:
The Lord Thy God is a trinity so does not exclude the Son, which is why He accepts worship elsewhere.

It doesn't say so in that verse. That's what YOU say so.

The trinity is somthing else. No one ever could prove it till now, it's just a matter of belief and what the Church decided to add to the system belief which wasn't originally there in the scriptures. There is no mention for the trinity in the scriptures.

Where does this say that all worship should be directed to the Father? It says that the Father seeks a certain kind of worship, i.e in Spirit and Truth ( not in ritual observance or duty / obligation). This does not exclude The Son.

Can you prove that?

All what i can see till now is God asking you to worship him but Jesus didn't. So simple and clear.

That would be like asking someone to tell you they love you, it would be valueless and empty. Instead He proved who He was by fulfilling the prophecies concerning Him and pointed them to the scriptures constantly.

Excatly, the scriptures which talk about him as a prophet but not God. Please Paul, you are trying to explain somthing which doesn't exist in your scriptures, things like that would be like ....

Got what i mean?

It was a selfless act of Love and self sacrifce, what pleased Him never came into the equation but complete obedience to do His Fathers will.


The oldest forms of Christianity do not support the 'born again' version of salvation.

Would a 'Just' God, a 'Fair' God, a 'Loving' God -- punish Jesus for the sins of the people that he called to follow him?

What happens to people who died before Jesus came?

What happens to those who never hear this message?


What about innocent children who die although their parents are not Christian?



Can't God just forgive us and not have to kill Jesus?



And what about Jesus?



Jesus did not even carry the cross -- Simon Cyre'ne, a passerby did! [Mk 15:21]



Jesus of the Bible was NOT on the cross for longer than six (6) hours -- NOT three days -- (from the 3rd to the 9th hour) [Mk 15:25 & 15:33]



Jesus of the Bible did not spend three days and nights in the tomb -- Friday night - until Sunday before dawn -- is not 3 days and nights!



Jesus of the English Bible complains about the 'crucifixion'


("Eli! Eli! Lama sabachthani? - My God! My God! Why have You forsaken me?") [Mk 15:34]



So what do you think?



 
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