Why did God create homosexuality?

Brickjectivity said:

Most likely it is thought that the more semen you make the worse the quality, though there is no scripture about this that I have heard of. The command to reproduce is urgent, and it implies maximizing reproducing and reproducing as well as possible. It merely seems like that is the reasoning for why males are forbidden both to masturbate and to have anal sex. The reasoning is not given, however. I'm interpolating the reason.

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I dont know about that. All I know is that homosexuals or arsenokoitai are grouped with pornos or fornicators, kleptai or thieves, methusoi or drunkards and malakoi or soft men. So since they are all grouped together by Saul in the NT, I dont think the reason you gave would explain his motivations for doing that. But it could be. You maybe right.

Kelly of the Phoenix said:

Yeah, the endless misogyny definitely reeks of “My Wife left Me and everyone else is going to pay for My humiliation “.

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"And just 'cos Gabriel is my special friend ..."

firedragon said:

Thats false. Stalin did that, and they had the anti theism movement, while persecuting homosexuals and putting them in jail for up to five years, while the Ottoman Empire being the so called islamic khalifate gave full gay rights way back in the 1850's.

What you say is a typical situation, but not necessary.

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It is not false -- natural, science-based understanding of creation and evolution pave the way to avoiding questions like "why did God make homosexuals, if he doesn't like them?" The question evaporates in a natural world understanding, by simply realizing that God did no such thing, therefore the question is invalid.

Stalin, as you may have heard, was -- like the rest of us -- human. And we all have our prejudices and misplaced beliefs; things we were taught before we were old enough to really be able to think about what we were told. Stalin hated homosexuals because he was taught to.

My best friend's 9 year old son, just this week, got taunted by school-mates because he and his friends like to say goodbye at the end of the day with a hug. "That's so gay," taunted one boy, who is a member of a fairly disfunctional family. But my friend's son has been taught that gay is just another kind of love. He has known me and my partner since the day he was born, and we are among his favourite people, so he had to ask his dad -- after thinking about it for quite some time -- why this other boy thinks being gay is somehow bad.

May I point out, too, that while the Ottoman khalifate may have thought differently -- their Muslim descendants certainly do not.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Stalin, as you may have heard, was -- like the rest of us -- human. And we all have our prejudices and misplaced beliefs; things we were taught before we were old enough to really be able to think about what we were told. Stalin hated homosexuals because he was taught to.

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Exactly.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

May I point out, too, that while the Ottoman khalifate may have thought differently -- their Muslim descendants certainly do not.

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Absolutely.

These two statements of yours show that this so called science based thinking or what ever you brought up in your post is just an unproven theory with no evidence. It could be very different based on peoples prejudices.

Howlstan said:

The Bible states that if a man lies with another man they should both be stoned to death. It's my belief that homosexuals are born that way and have no choice over who they're attracted to just like a heterosexual. If this is true why would God create homosexuals when he seems so opposed to their nature? I believe in the God of the Old Testament and believe that he is righteous but I'm confused by this. Did God create homosexuals purely to destroy them or is there something else going on? Does he want a homosexual man to be celibate or to go against his nature and procreate with a woman? Is God offering him the chance to make a huge sacrifice to the highest by denying himself? What are your thoughts?

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Good questions Howlstan.

firedragon said:

Exactly.



Absolutely.

These two statements of yours show that this so called science based thinking or what ever you brought up in your post is just an unproven theory with no evidence. It could be very different based on peoples prejudices.

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Perhaps I was also subtly suggesting that it is possible -- with a little insight and a lot of effort -- we can overcome some of our prejudices. I know I have spent a lifetime trying to do just that. I also know a lot of people who couldn't be less interested.

How about you?

firedragon said:

I dont know about that. All I know is that homosexuals or arsenokoitai are grouped with pornos or fornicators, kleptai or thieves, methusoi or drunkards and malakoi or soft men. So since they are all grouped together by Saul in the NT, I dont think the reason you gave would explain his motivations for doing that. But it could be. You maybe right.

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Yes, Saul is a very strict asexual in many passages even though he is married. He tends to view marriage as something to be avoided in dangerous times unless your balls are on fire. In peaceful times Paul would have you reproduce maximally like the Jews (but not to have sex when you aren't reproducing) and he even says that reproduction is the path of salvation for women. He's all about reproduction but not any recreational sexual activity at all. You can see his ideals expressed in the Catholic society in many ways. Its also a strong influence on early Protestant American culture. I, myself, grew up believing sex was only for marriage though I didn't believe it was strictly for reproduction. You can see that Paul's emphasis is not followed strictly by everybody.

It appears that Paul stresses an extreme lifestyle which nobody practices except for very few, like monks and nuns. I think those who do not follow his extreme lifestyle need not bother themselves about the topic: people who can't control their addictions, people who spend their lives on themselves or only upon their immediate family etc. I mean most of us who are just trying to live normally and not trying to be so Pauline. We need not pretend that we live up to Paul's standards which are Olympic in nature. It is mere pretense I think and a self deception to think otherwise. That doesn't mean we can't at least discuss Paul's opinions. We can.

Paul may interpret Torah, but he may be incorrect about it, too; and the rest of the canon is not subject to his opinion. In the same canon where Paul is found we are told that teachers always make mistakes. James chapter 3 says so, right next in the canon next to Paul. Paul also compliments those who investigate what he says -- which shows he knows he can be wrong and is not infallible. Also, it is Paul who must bow to Torah and not Torah to Paul. It is therefore required to source everything he says directly from the scriptures from which he claims that he gets his teachings. Those of us who are able must judge his words for ourselves. Most people don't, but I think increasingly people will. The times require it. They also require a new awareness of how little we measure up to Paul's standards of behavior.

Paul can make mistakes, and his scripture should be considered an arrow to other sources rather than a source on its own. Personally I also apply this to the Hebrew scriptures, but I'm not a great enough scholar to overturn even a letter of anything...not Paul or Saul or Moses etc. Someone might be, though. Its certainly possible to me that any scripture can be error filled. As for Saul, though, he must agree with Torah not Torah with him. That is the only sane order of precedence: If his argument in Galations is good then keep it, but if it is bad throw it out. That is what Paul says to do. It is I think the Christian thing to do.

Finally, Paul is correct that extreme lifestyles are needed, however few people live that way. Its nonsense to worry about who is screwing which body part if we're do tied up in materialism and wasting time and all that. Consider my personal struggle just to stop eating coffee and lots of sugar. I throw plastic in the garbage. I live for myself practically. I'm a ridiculous model of Pauline anything. I'm not going to let myself start to worry about other people's actions. Its just nonsense to worry about such relatively unimportant matters. Its like the splinter in the eye versus the log in the eye.

Howlstan said:

Ok then, why would God create a sexual feeling in someone when it's forbidden to act on that impulse? I believe that men who are attracted to other men were born with those impulses inherent in them. I believe that God created these men to feel this way as God creates everything in the natural world. Why would he do this when the consequences if they act upon their feelings are so severe? To reach God involves sacrifice. Maybe this is why he created these feelings? It's the only explanation I can come up with but I'm open to other interpretations.

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Nature, nurture and diet all contribute to our health of body and mind.

Basically the world unfolds in comparison to humanities obedience and submission to God's given wisdom and Laws.

Regards Tony

Brickjectivity said:

Yes, Saul is a very strict asexual in many passages even though he is married.

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How do you know he was married?

Evangelicalhumanist said:

Perhaps I was also subtly suggesting that it is possible -- with a little insight and a lot of effort -- we can overcome some of our prejudices.

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Absolutely.

Evangelicalhumanist said:

I know I have spent a lifetime trying to do just that. I also know a lot of people who couldn't be less interested.

How about you?

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I think our personal lives and what we do in them is not valid to be spoken of. This is an Internet forum, and we are anonymous with no way of verifying if what we say is true or not. About our lives I mean.

Just a day ago one gentleman who claims to be a lecturer in theology and comparative religion with a doctorate in theology in this very forum proved that he didnt have a clue of some of the most basic theories taught in seminary and in universities around the world by textbook. It was almost like a person who claims to be a phd in mathematics didnt know what algebra or calculus is. Not even the term.

So I think its not valid.

Peace.

Howlstan said:

The Bible states that if a man lies with another man they should both be stoned to death. It's my belief that homosexuals are born that way and have no choice over who they're attracted to just like a heterosexual. If this is true why would God create homosexuals when he seems so opposed to their nature? I believe in the God of the Old Testament and believe that he is righteous but I'm confused by this. Did God create homosexuals purely to destroy them or is there something else going on? Does he want a homosexual man to be celibate or to go against his nature and procreate with a woman? Is God offering him the chance to make a huge sacrifice to the highest by denying himself? What are your thoughts?

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The law was given with an ideal state of the creation in mind.

Consider the law about adultery. Angels are not "given in marriage" because they are not in the same state as humans -so gender issues do not apply -and marriage is until death because we will no longer be human later.

Biblically, marriage is between a distinct male and distinct female.

Both distinct males and females may decide to have same sex relations for pleasure or other reasons -and outside of a marital relationship. Those are against the law.

Anything which might make a person not distinctly male or female is an intersex issue -such as if one has both male and female genitalia.
These issues make application of the law tricky -as the creation has been affected so as to cause the gender, etc., of the individual to be in question.
Should a person actually have both male and female physiology in less visible ways -that would also be an intersex issue.
One who wanted to keep the law would need to honestly determine their actual state and apply the law to their state.

Intersex issues exist, but are not required for same-sex relations -and just because one might have sexual desire for same sex relations does not.mean one has intersex issues.
It's quite possible to have same sex relations just because it feels good or for other reasons.

So... one must be honest and informed. Are they male or female -or somehow intersex? Do they have a desire to keep biblical law? How might they best do so in their individual case?

Think about the other commandments... why would God tell me not to steal, etc., if I really want to -and it's a quick way to get stuff?

firedragon said:

How do you know he was married?

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There are a couple of reasons I think so. First of all he is Jewish, and indicates that he is able to marry. A Jewish man must marry if he is able. There are no exceptions from what I am told. Pro-creation is the mitzvo in the Pentateuch and the first command in the first chapter of the first book of it.

Also I Corinthians 9:5 seems like a hint that Paul takes his wife with him as he travels, either him or Barnabas or both. Probably it is both. I presume that as young Jewish men they would have been betrothed from youth, but this comment adds weight to that idea. He compares marriage to food and drink, a necessity.

Howlstan said:

The Bible states that if a man lies with another man they should both be stoned to death.

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Where does it say that?

It's my belief that homosexuals are born that way and have no choice over who they're attracted to just like a heterosexual.

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Agreed. There are scientific studies that proves this.

If this is true why would God create homosexuals when he seems so opposed to their nature?

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It didn't and it is not.
Homosexuality is a social trait and it was developed through evolutionary processes.
God against homosexuals is a misinterpretation.

I believe in the God of the Old Testament and believe that he is righteous but I'm confused by this.

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You and many others.

Did God create homosexuals purely to destroy them or is there something else going on?

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Nature is no stranger to homosexuality.
It is no unique phenomenon to humans.
God doesn't ask humans to destroy homosexuals.

Does he want a homosexual man to be celibate or to go against his nature and procreate with a woman?

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No. It is up to the persons choice.

Is God offering him the chance to make a huge sacrifice to the highest by denying himself?

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God wants human to see their sperm as a valuable product.
It doesn't care if you self pleasure, or a homosexual, or any other preference one have.
It cares that you don't promote your sexual nature over others well being.

What are your thoughts?

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I think many frightened people believe what you believe.
It derives from fear and not actual understanding of the texts.

The Hammer said:

What do you consider empirical evidence?

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Flamboyant and effeminate behaviour, cross-dressing and transvestites for male gender humans. Butch and tom-boy behaviour for female genders. There is an extreme conflict between their physiology and their behaviour.

The Hammer said:

Unless heterosexual is something that "develops" in people, homosexuality doesn't either.

You're born hardwired for attraction to some people and not others. Simple biology.

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I actually think it's pretty common sense. Anyone who says homosexuality doesn't exist or is distorted are basically saying sexual attraction doesn't exist and distorted.

It literally has nothing to do with the object of attraction. It's kind of like saying the apple is responsible for your hunger when it should be an orange.... as if hunger doesn't exist unless you have an orange and not an apple (if you follow me?).

Koldo said:

But where is the vice in having an homosexual relationship per se?

Whenever I think of any given vice I can pinpoint at least one major harm it causes. I can't think of any when it comes down to homosexuality, so what is it?

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I said that within even hetero people come many vices as in deviant practices like S&M, role playing, toys, abuse, selfishness, hedonism, objectification, etc... Thus, all have to control their innate compulsions in some way or another. If a man is being sexually attracted to another man, he has to refrain from carrying out his desires and try to understand and cure the catalyst behind such impulses.

DNB said:

Not interested, ...i am aware of the diversity of opinion on the matter, and I have formulated mine through both empirical evidence and fundamental reasons..

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(Pushes through) Now I'm curious.

What type of evidence?
Evidence also involves taking into account testimonies of people who experience attraction to the same gender. We know what people feel like when they are attracted to the opposite gender but what about the same?

From an attractive perspective, how are they different?
(Meaning how does the object of attraction influence whether one has a distorted attraction or not?)

And the evidence?

I'm really curious cause all I found was theories and studies on human attraction based on the sex of the other person. Though older studies are more biased then the recent ones. You'll find evidence more in the people who experience it.

Kooky said:

So your public expression of disgust over, and endorsement of the persecution of LGBTQ people wasn't meant to be serious after all?

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I'm sorry Kooky, have you been responding to several different threads, by several different people, all at once?
Where in the world did you get '...endorsement of the persecution of LGBTQ people...' from???

@DNB (If interested)

This is just from first result google search: The biological basis of human sexual orientation: is there a role for epigenetics? - PubMed

Homosexuality used to be a sin and people convicted would be convicted
The Decriminalization of Sodomy in the United States

Homosexuality used to be described as a mental illness but then was taken out of the DSM book because of evidence to the contrary search results - homosexuality mental illnesses 1960s DSM

Christians used to (and probably to some extent still do) have conversion therapies to indoctrinate people by forcing their body and mind to like other people (kind of like training a rat to change its instinct for some study or another). https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/conversion-therapy-and-lgbt-youth/

It's fine to say homosexual behavior is a sin. However, when you say that attraction is distorted when the object is different than the norm it becomes more unscientific not just seen as immoral.

I noticed people change their views when they find out they are gay late in life or they shunned their child or tried to fix their child and that child no longer loves their parent and left their religion.

Unveiled Artist said:

(Pushes through) Now I'm curious.

What type of evidence?
Evidence also involves taking into account testimonies of people who experience attraction to the same gender. We know what people feel like when they are attracted to the opposite gender but what about the same?

From an attractive perspective, how are they different?
(Meaning how does the object of attraction influence whether one has a distorted attraction or not?)

And the evidence?

I'm really curious cause all I found was theories and studies on human attraction based on the sex of the other person. Though older studies are more biased then the recent ones. You'll find evidence more in the people who experience it.

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Personal opinions on the matter, even from the participants themselves, can be extremely subjective, unsound or insincere - we can all talk ourselves into believing that our desires and intents are justified and valid.
The evidence that I am talking about is both the character and the lifestyle that such act elicits. The gay pride parade is a great example of extremely undignified, unbridled and brazen behaviour. Cross-dressing, and both flamboyant attire and behaviour is another example. The fact that transvestites are predominant , if not exclusive,to the homosexual community, is a testimony to the conflict and hypocrisy that is inherent in their belief system - how can one claim that it's totally acceptable for a man to sleep with a man, and yet they must either dress, or act like a woman in order to do so?