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Question about John 5:25 and John 5:28-29.Dead people hear Jesus's voice while still dead?

Frank Goad

Well-Known Member
I was reading this.And in John 5:25 and John 5:28-29.And Daniel 12:2 it looks like to me that people can hear Jesus's voice but are still dead.And that they will come back to life later:)From what Jesus says.What is your opinion?:)
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I was reading this.And in John 5:25 it looks like to me that people can hear Jesus's voice but are still dead.And that they will comeback to life later:)From what Jesus says.What is your opinion?:)
I think that before you can get to the bottom of this, you're going to have to let go of your preconceptions on the subject. Bodies die. Spirits don't. A dead body is a body where the spirit which gave it life has temporarily departed. A living soul is a body in which a spirit resides. It's not complicated, but I do believe you are going to have to go back to square one and unlearn some of the things you may have come to believe over the years before the reality of what happens at death makes sense to you.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
I was reading this.And in John 5:25 it looks like to me that people can hear Jesus's voice but are still dead.And that they will comeback to life later:)From what Jesus says.What is your opinion?:)

This passage refers to these things it seems (in my opinion):

1) The spiritual resurrection (for we are born spiritually dead) of all those who receive Faith/Grace/Righteousness/Life and become saved, for elsewhere it says "faith comes through hearing."
2) The resurrection of St. Lazarus which takes place after in the Gospel. For in another Gospel He says "they shall see the kingdom" and then after they see the Transfiguration.
3) The resurrection of those when He died recorded by St. Matthew.
4) The general resurrection of the dead at the end of the world.

All of which can fit this, for though they are dead they can hear the Word of God in all of these senses. With St. Lazarus Jesus spoke to him while dead saying "come forth!" and with the dead in St. Matthew's Gospel He spoke to them in Hades, and in the general resurrection He'll command the whole world to rise.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
I think that before you can get to the bottom of this, you're going to have to let go of your preconceptions on the subject. Bodies die. Spirits don't. A dead body is a body where the spirit which gave it life has temporarily departed. A living soul is a body in which a spirit resides. It's not complicated, but I do believe you are going to have to go back to square one and unlearn some of the things you may have come to believe over the years before the reality of what happens at death makes sense to you.
So you are saying that the spirit is immortal and lives after the body dies? Can you gives Bible verses to show this?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
That is not exactly my question. Immortal means that something cannot die, God is immortal. Can you find anything in the Bible that says all souls are immortal and can never die?
A soul can die when the spirit leaves the body at death. A spirit is a life force and is immortal.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
A soul can die when the spirit leaves the body at death. A spirit is a life force and is immortal.
Thank you. This is a new idea for me. It would seem that if a spirit is a life force, then when the life ends the life force would also end. Can you give Bible verses that support any of this? I would like to learn more.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thank you. This is a new idea for me. It would seem that if a spirit is a life force, then when the life ends the life force would also end. Can you give Bible verses that support any of this? I would like to learn more.
The first thing that comes to mind was Luke 23:36 when, just before He died, He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." We know that His body was dead and in a tomb until He rose on the third day and appeared to His Apostles. But simple logic tells us that His Father would have no use or need for a dead spirit. He commended a living spirit to His Father for safe-keeping until it re-entered His dead body, giving it new life.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
The first thing that comes to mind was Luke 23:36 when, just before He died, He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." We know that His body was dead and in a tomb until He rose on the third day and appeared to His Apostles. But simple logic tells us that His Father would have no use or need for a dead spirit. He commended a living spirit to His Father for safe-keeping until it re-entered His dead body, giving it new life.
OK. That makes a lot of sense. But that is talking about Jesus who rose after three days. All the other billions of people who have died did not rise from their tombs like Jesus. So is God holding billions of spirits from all these dead people? You really got me thinking about this. Hope you can offer more information.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
OK. That makes a lot of sense. But that is talking about Jesus who rose after three days. All the other billions of people who have died did not rise from their tombs like Jesus. So is God holding billions of spirits from all these dead people? You really got me thinking about this. Hope you can offer more information.
Let me get back to you. I want to give you an answer that will take more time than I have right at this moment.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I was reading this.And in John 5:25 and John 5:28-29.And Daniel 12:2 it looks like to me that people can hear Jesus's voice but are still dead.And that they will come back to life later:)From what Jesus says.What is your opinion?:)
If one is sleeping, they can be awakened by loud call.
Jesus said the dead are sleeping - John 11, and he has the power to awaken them from sleep.
When we sleep, are we conscious? I would say we are conscious, because we have a sub-conscious, which is not sleeping during that time.
Of course I am not here referring to sleeping in death.

When we sleep in death however, are we conscious?
According to the Bible, the answer is no.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all. . .
Psalm 146:4 His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

So when Jesus is speaking about hearing his voice, he is not applying that to consciously hearing, but drawing attention to this fact - death is to God momentary (like sleep) for all those in his memory.
Luke 20:38 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to him.. . .

...and will be brought to nothing - 1 Corinthians 15:26
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thank you. I will be happy to hear what you have to say.
Well, let's start with Luke 23:43, which says, "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Unless I am mistaken, the majority of today's Christians believe that a person goes immediately to either Heaven or Hell after he dies. At the same time, they bury the deceased person's body and know that it is indeed underground. So if they believe that the spirit goes immediately to its final destination, how do they reconcile that belief with what we're told in John 5:25,1 Peter 13:18-19, 1 Peter 4:6?

John 5:25 ("Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.")
1 Peter 13:18-19 (For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison...")
1 Peter 4:6 ("For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.")


We know that Jesus commended His spirit into His Father's hands just before He died and that He rose again as an immortal being, never again to suffer pain or illness, and never again to die. His spirit reunited with His body, giving it new life. Now, on the morning He was resurrected, He appeared in bodily form to Mary, and when she approached Him, said (according to John 20:17), "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

There appears to be an apparent contradiction between the fact that three days previously, He'd told the repentant thief who hung dying beside Him that He'd be with him that day in Paradise, and the fact that on the Sunday after His death, He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to Father. It seems as if He'd gone to Paradise where He'd seen the repentant thief, but not to Heaven to see His Father. To me, that's one huge clue that the Paradise spoken of in Luke 23:43 is not the same place as is being spoken of in John 20:17. John 5:25, 1 Peter 13:18-19 and 1-Peter 4:6 (all quoted in full above) speak of Jesus Christ (in spirit form, since He had not yet been resurrected) preaching to the spirits of the dead during the time His body lay in the tomb. Now why in the world would He have preached to them if they had already been consigned to an eternity in Hell at the moment they died? And why would He have even been speaking to them if they were conscious of nothing? Clearly, He wouldn't have. Their bodies were dead and knew nothing. Their spirits were very much alive and hearing some very happy news!

Here's how I see it, and I'm not asking you to agree with me. As a matter of fact, you probably won't. I believe that when the spirit leaves the physical body, the body dies. It is no longer conscious of anything (as Ecclesiastes 7:9 says). But the spirit is obviously still alive and fully cognizant. It is returned to God where there is a judgment of sorts, though not the "Final Judgment" spoken of in Revelation. It is then sent to a place best described as a Spirit World. The Spirit World is simply a place where the spirits of everyone who has ever lived and died will await the resurrection and Final Judgment. The Spirit World is an intermediate realm of existence between Earth and Heaven or Hell. It is more a state of mind than an actual place. The spirits of the righteous (and the repentant wicked who have accepted Jesus Christ) will find the Spirit World to be a place of peace, rest and happiness. In the scriptures, it is referred to as "Abraham's Bosom." The spirits of the unrepentant wicked and those who never had a change to hear and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ during their lifetimes will find the Spirit World to be like a prison (aka Hell). They will feel the weight of their sins pressing on them and will be at a loss as to how they can find release from this anguish. Prior to Jesus' death and descent into the Spirit World, where He saw the repentant thief in Paradise and taught the wicked in the Spirit Prison, there was a "great gulf" between the people who would have described the Spirit World as "Paradise" and those who would have described it as "Hell" or "Prison." (You can read about this in Luke 16:19-26). But Jesus bridged that gulf and made it possible for the spirits of the dead to know the joy of what He did for them through His atoning sacrifice. Furthermore, they could still choose to repent.

Now we know from the scriptures that Jesus did eventually ascend to His Father in Heaven. He is, therefore, no longer preaching His gospel to those in the Spirit Prison. Rather, He has given that responsibility to those in Paradise. In other words, those who have chosen to follow Him will continue to spread the good news to those who are suffering because of their sins. Now spirits, of course, are immaterial (non-corporeal). They can not be contained by the bars one typically associates with prison. But spiritually and emotionally, the spirits of the wicked are very much in a different kind of prison -- one that they can be released from, to enjoy the peace and joy of those in Paradise. All that is required of them is faith in Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins. When they are resurrected and stand before God at the final judgment, they will be received into Heaven along with those who had led righteous lives on earth.

I'm not sure if any of this will even make sense to you. I'm sorry if it doesn't, as it's probably a very new concept to you. If you have any questions about anything I've said, please feel free to ask me to clarify anything. If, on the other hand, you understand what I've said but simply disagree with all of it, that's okay, too. This was just my best attempt to answer your question.
 
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Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
Well, let's start with Luke 23:43, which says, "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." Unless I am mistaken, the majority of today's Christians believe that a person goes immediately to either Heaven or Hell after he dies. At the same time, they bury the deceased person's body and know that it is indeed underground. So if they believe that the spirit goes immediately to its final destination, how do they reconcile that belief with what we're told in John 5:25,1 Peter 13:18-19, 1 Peter 4:6?

John 5:25 ("Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.")
1 Peter 13:18-19 (For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison...")
1 Peter 4:6 ("For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.")


We know that Jesus commended His spirit into His Father's hands just before He died and that He rose again as an immortal being, never again to suffer pain or illness, and never again to die. His spirit reunited with His body, giving it new life. Now, on the morning He was resurrected, He appeared in bodily form to Mary, and when she approached Him, said (according to John 20:17), "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God."

There appears to be an apparent contradiction between the fact that three days previously, He'd told the repentant thief who hung dying beside Him that He'd be with him that day in Paradise, and the fact that on the Sunday after His death, He told Mary that He had not yet ascended to Father. It seems as if He'd gone to Paradise where He'd seen the repentant thief, but not to Heaven to see His Father. To me, that's one huge clue that the Paradise spoken of in Luke 23:43 is not the same place as is being spoken of in John 20:17. John 5:25, 1 Peter 13:18-19 and 1-Peter 4:6 (all quoted in full above) speak of Jesus Christ (in spirit form, since He had not yet been resurrected) preaching to the spirits of the dead during the time His body lay in the tomb. Now why in the world would He have preached to them if they had already been consigned to an eternity in Hell at the moment they died? And why would He have even been speaking to them if they were conscious of nothing? Clearly, He wouldn't have. Their bodies were dead and knew nothing. Their spirits were very much alive and hearing some very happy news!

Here's how I see it, and I'm not asking you to agree with me. As a matter of fact, you probably won't. I believe that when the spirit leaves the physical body, the body dies. It is no longer conscious of anything (as Ecclesiastes 7:9 says). But the spirit is obviously still alive and fully cognizant. It is returned to God where there is a judgment of sorts, though not the "Final Judgment" spoken of in Revelation. It is a place best described as a Spirit World. The Spirit World is simply a place where the spirits of everyone who has ever lived and died will await the resurrection and Final Judgment. The Spirit World is an intermediate realm of existence between Earth and Heaven or Hell. It is more a state of mind than an actual place. The spirits of the righteous (and the repentant wicked who have accepted Jesus Christ) will find the Spirit World to be a place of peace, rest and happiness. In the scriptures, it is referred to as "Abraham's Bosom." The spirits of the unrepentant wicked and those who never had a change to hear and accept the gospel of Jesus Christ during their lifetimes will find the Spirit World to be like a prison (aka Hell). They will feel the weight of their sins pressing on them and will be at a loss as to how they can find release from this anguish. Prior to Jesus' death and descent into the Spirit World, where He saw the repentant thief in Paradise and taught the wicked in the Spirit Prison, there was a "great gulf" between the people who who in the part of the Spirit World known as Paradise and the part of the Spirit World known as the Spirit Prison. (You can read about this in Luke 16:19-26). But Jesus bridged that gulf and made it possible for the spirits of the dead to know the joy of what He did for them through His atoning sacrifice. Furthermore, they could still choose to repent.

Now we know from the scriptures that Jesus did eventually ascend to His Father in Heaven. He is, therefore, no longer preaching His gospel to those in the Spirit Prison. Rather, He has given that responsibility to those in Paradise. In other words, those who have chosen to follow Him will continue to spread the good news to those who are suffering because of their sins. Now spirits, of course, are immaterial (non-corporeal). They can not be contained by the bars one typically associates with prison. But spiritually and emotionally, the spirits of the wicked are very much in a different kind of prison -- one that they can be released from, to enjoy the peace and joy of those in Paradise. All that is required of them is faith in Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins. When they are resurrected and stand before God at the final judgment, they will be received into Heaven along with those who had led righteous lives on earth.

I'm not sure if any of this will even make sense to you. I'm sorry if it doesn't, as it's probably a very new concept to you. If you have any questions about anything I've said, please feel free to ask me to clarify anything. If, on the other hand, you understand what I've said but simply disagree with all of it, that's okay, too. This was just my best attempt to answer your question.
Hi Katzpur, I’m not sure where you are getting your information from but it is only partially true.

A ‘SOUL’ is the person….. it’s just another word for ‘Person’. There is no Bible word which uses ‘person’, but there are verses that say, ‘Soul’.

Adam was a person created by God… but initially it was ONLY HIS BODY that was created. You will read that God blew the breath of life (the SPIRIT of Adam) into the BODY of Adam and the MAN (person / Soul) became a ‘LIVING SOUL’.

You can deduce from that, that BEFORE God blew the spirit of life into Adam, he was a LIFELESS SOUL!!

So, when a person dies, as you rightly say (the spirit of that person leaves the body) the person IS ONLY LIFELESS, or rather, explicitly, the BODY is lifeless… but the SPIRIT ‘goes to rest with God’.

Now, because the spirit is no longer supporting the body, not attending to its functional needs, the body decays. The spirit, however, is immortal because it is with God - God who created it.

The spirit CAN ONLY BE DESTROYED!!!!!

And only God, who created it, can destroy it!!

But note that at the end of time, Jesus is given the POWER AND AUTHORITY OF GOD to do so … Jesus is given power and authority to destroy the SPIRIT of those whom he will judge as not worthy for his kingdom!

Jesus will destroy - not only the BODY but also the SPIRIT… ipso facto: The body AND THE SOUL.

Destroying the body leaves the Spirit - Destroying both Body and spirit means the SOUL … the PERSON is gone…. There will be no remember since of that SOUL.

Sounds crazy? Not at all…

In the new kingdom there will be no remembrance of anything unworthy, no reflecting on wickedness, no thought of the unrighteousness, no feeling of anger towards someone who did you such a wrong.

Please re-read the above in total and you will get it…!

(Summary. ‘Soul’ is just another word for ‘Person’’:
  • ‘There was no one in the room - not a single …. Person / Soul!’
  • ‘My soul aches for your loss’ (‘I, ache for your loss
Please do not listen to those who claim: body soul and spirit. These are ones who are trying to claim a trinity in man… to claim a three part persons - much like they might claim an egg is three parts: SHELL, WHITE, and YOLK… notice that an EGG is still an EGG even without the white and the yolk…!!! Doesn’t work!!
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
I was reading this.And in John 5:25 and John 5:28-29.And Daniel 12:2 it looks like to me that people can hear Jesus's voice but are still dead.And that they will come back to life later:)From what Jesus says.What is your opinion?:)
No. You hear nothing when your dead.
 

lostwanderingsoul

Well-Known Member
Hi Katzpur, I’m not sure where you are getting your information from but it is only partially true.

A ‘SOUL’ is the person….. it’s just another word for ‘Person’. There is no Bible word which uses ‘person’, but there are verses that say, ‘Soul’.

Adam was a person created by God… but initially it was ONLY HIS BODY that was created. You will read that God blew the breath of life (the SPIRIT of Adam) into the BODY of Adam and the MAN (person / Soul) became a ‘LIVING SOUL’.

You can deduce from that, that BEFORE God blew the spirit of life into Adam, he was a LIFELESS SOUL!!

So, when a person dies, as you rightly say (the spirit of that person leaves the body) the person IS ONLY LIFELESS, or rather, explicitly, the BODY is lifeless… but the SPIRIT ‘goes to rest with God’.

Now, because the spirit is no longer supporting the body, not attending to its functional needs, the body decays. The spirit, however, is immortal because it is with God - God who created it.

The spirit CAN ONLY BE DESTROYED!!!!!

And only God, who created it, can destroy it!!

But note that at the end of time, Jesus is given the POWER AND AUTHORITY OF GOD to do so … Jesus is given power and authority to destroy the SPIRIT of those whom he will judge as not worthy for his kingdom!

Jesus will destroy - not only the BODY but also the SPIRIT… ipso facto: The body AND THE SOUL.

Destroying the body leaves the Spirit - Destroying both Body and spirit means the SOUL … the PERSON is gone…. There will be no remember since of that SOUL.

Sounds crazy? Not at all…

In the new kingdom there will be no remembrance of anything unworthy, no reflecting on wickedness, no thought of the unrighteousness, no feeling of anger towards someone who did you such a wrong.

Please re-read the above in total and you will get it…!

(Summary. ‘Soul’ is just another word for ‘Person’’:
  • ‘There was no one in the room - not a single …. Person / Soul!’
  • ‘My soul aches for your loss’ (‘I, ache for your loss
Please do not listen to those who claim: body soul and spirit. These are ones who are trying to claim a trinity in man… to claim a three part persons - much like they might claim an egg is three parts: SHELL, WHITE, and YOLK… notice that an EGG is still an EGG even without the white and the yolk…!!! Doesn’t work!!
You say in one place that the spirit is immortal. You say in another place that God can destroy the spirit. I thought that the definition of immortal was that something cannot die or be destroyed. Do you have Bible verses that say the spirit is immortal? Many people believe there is an immortal soul in man. Do any verses support that view?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Hi Katzpur, I’m not sure where you are getting your information from but it is only partially true.
I'm going to change that to say that in your opinion, "it is only partially true." That's because right now, all we mortals have is a bunch of opinions. We interpret the Bible to the best of our abilities, and conclude that we're right and that everybody else is wrong.

A ‘SOUL’ is the person….. it’s just another word for ‘Person’. There is no Bible word which uses ‘person’, but there are verses that say, ‘Soul’.
Actually, the word "person" is used 139 times in the Bible. But I would agree that a "living soul" is a person, and I never stated otherwise.

Adam was a person created by God… but initially it was ONLY HIS BODY that was created. You will read that God blew the breath of life (the SPIRIT of Adam) into the BODY of Adam and the MAN (person / Soul) became a ‘LIVING SOUL’.

You can deduce from that, that BEFORE God blew the spirit of life into Adam, he was a LIFELESS SOUL!!
Actually, I believe that Adam's spirit (aka "the breath of life") was created prior to his body, as I believe that God created our spirits out of highly refined matter that was co-eternal with with. To me, there really is no such thing as a "lifeless soul." There is an eternal spirit, a lifeless physical body, and the entity which exists once the eternal spirit enters into the physical body -- that entity being known as a "living soul."

So, when a person dies, as you rightly say (the spirit of that person leaves the body) the person IS ONLY LIFELESS, or rather, explicitly, the BODY is lifeless… but the SPIRIT ‘goes to rest with God’.

Now, because the spirit is no longer supporting the body, not attending to its functional needs, the body decays. The spirit, however, is immortal because it is with God - God who created it.
I can agree with most of this. At death, the body is lifeless but the spirit continues to live on.

The spirit CAN ONLY BE DESTROYED!!!!!

And only God, who created it, can destroy it!!
I disagree with this to the extent that God never created a spirit only to turn around and destroy it. Whether He can or not is a moot point to me.

But note that at the end of time, Jesus is given the POWER AND AUTHORITY OF GOD to do so … Jesus is given power and authority to destroy the SPIRIT of those whom he will judge as not worthy for his kingdom!

Jesus will destroy - not only the BODY but also the SPIRIT… ipso facto: The body AND THE SOUL.

Destroying the body leaves the Spirit - Destroying both Body and spirit means the SOUL … the PERSON is gone…. There will be no remember since of that SOUL.
Well, this is where we disagree and where my interpretation of scripture is different from yours. Different. Not necessarily wrong. Yes, one of us is wrong. Personally, I think we ought to wait until we stand before God to be judged before we come to any conclusions.

Please do not listen to those who claim: body soul and spirit. These are ones who are trying to claim a trinity in man… to claim a three part persons - much like they might claim an egg is three parts: SHELL, WHITE, and YOLK… notice that an EGG is still an EGG even without the white and the yolk…!!! Doesn’t work!!
Look, I don't believe in the Trinity, but I don't agree with Jehovah's Witnesses doctrine either. The only one I actually listen to is God, and everything I know about Him and His Plan, I learned from Him.
 

Soapy

Son of his Father: The Heir and Prince
You say in one place that the spirit is immortal. You say in another place that God can destroy the spirit. I thought that the definition of immortal was that something cannot die or be destroyed. Do you have Bible verses that say the spirit is immortal? Many people believe there is an immortal soul in man. Do any verses support that view?
GOD CAN DESTROY SOMETHING IMMORTAL…

You seem not to understand that IMMORTAL applies to CREATED THINGS.

AND THAT IT IS GOD who created. What GOD creates God can also destroy.

It’s not hard to understand unless your mindset is not right.

God is the creator of the immortal spirit… God can destroy the immortal spirit he creates.

An immortal entity cannot be destroyed by anything OTHER THAN by its creator!!

It would be a DISASTER if an entity could be created that could NOT BE DESTROYED by the creators!!

Think about it…..
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
GOD CAN DESTROY SOMETHING IMMORTAL…

You seem not to understand that IMMORTAL applies to CREATED THINGS.

AND THAT IT IS GOD who created. What GOD creates God can also destroy.

It’s not hard to understand unless your mindset is not right.

God is the creator of the immortal spirit… God can destroy the immortal spirit he creates.

An immortal entity cannot be destroyed by anything OTHER THAN by its creator!!

It would be a DISASTER if an entity could be created that could NOT BE DESTROYED by the creators!!

Think about it…..
You know, basically it sounds like all you're really saying here is that your mindset is right and so you have a correct understanding of things, but people who disagree with you have a mindset that is not right, resulting in an inaccurate understanding of things. Did I get that right? Or is my mindset messed up?
 
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