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Isaiah and Messiah

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Clearly, you do not understand what prophecy is -- it isn't telling the future. Abraham is called by the exact same word as the word used in Psalm 110:1. Why would the text be referring to someone else? And why wouldn't Abraham, progenitor of the Jewish people, not be a "master" (using the word "lord" seems to confuse you) to David who ruled the Jewish people?


You seem to have missed something in verse 1. The throne was that of God. The vision was of God:
"In the year that King Uzziah died, I beheld my Lord seated on a high and lofty throne; and the skirts of His robe filled the Temple."

Who said that the throne was Uzziah's? I was talking about the word "king" used in the verse. It is pointing to Uzziah, and Rashi's statement fills out your request.

That would be a name of God. Are you not familiar with the term? Here:
https://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380329/jewish/Tzeva-ot-Master-of-Legions.htm
Abraham was the progenitor of the Jewish people but God also said, 'in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.' This blessing comes through faith in the promised seed, something that those under the law seem not to appreciate. The law has the purpose of preparation; keeping His people in the 'way' until righteousness under the law is fulfilled in love.

Do you believe that God has elevated Abraham to sit at His right hand? Do you believe that 'The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath'? [110:5]

If YHWH cannot be seen by man, how is it that 'the LORD of hosts' is seen?
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Abraham was the progenitor of the Jewish people but God also said, 'in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.' This blessing comes through faith in the promised seed, something that those under the law seem not to appreciate. The law has the purpose of preparation; keeping His people in the 'way' until righteousness under the law is fulfilled in love.
This is a mass of gobbledygook. The text says pretty clearly that all the nations will be blessed by (either directly or through reference) Abraham --
"And all the families of the earth
Shall bless themselves by you.”

Jumping around to faith in a seed and anything's being "fulfilled in love" are unrelated to the biblical text.
Do you believe that God has elevated Abraham to sit at His right hand? Do you believe that 'The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath'? [110:5]
A. What I believe is immaterial -- this was a vision of Isaiah. He saw what he saw as an image, not as a news report.
B. as the Psalm makes repeated textual reference to Abraham's heroics in his battle in Genesis against the kings during which God was with him in battle, it seems that 110:5 fits just fine
If YHWH cannot be seen by man, how is it that 'the LORD of hosts' is seen?
In the text, God speaks of himself using colloquial language (finger of God, God's back, God's having emotions). Do you take them all literally and humanize God? Then that's really a you problem.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
This is a mass of gobbledygook. The text says pretty clearly that all the nations will be blessed by (either directly or through reference) Abraham --
"And all the families of the earth
Shall bless themselves by you.”

Jumping around to faith in a seed and anything's being "fulfilled in love" are unrelated to the biblical text.

A. What I believe is immaterial -- this was a vision of Isaiah. He saw what he saw as an image, not as a news report.
B. as the Psalm makes repeated textual reference to Abraham's heroics in his battle in Genesis against the kings during which God was with him in battle, it seems that 110:5 fits just fine

In the text, God speaks of himself using colloquial language (finger of God, God's back, God's having emotions). Do you take them all literally and humanize God? Then that's really a you problem.

Abraham was justified by faith, as it says in Genesis 15:6; 'Abram believed in the Lord, and he counted it to him for righteousness.'

In Genesis 26:4, it says, 'And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.' Is this 'seed' referring to the Jews, or to the body of Christ?

If, as you claim, Abraham is the 'Lord' of Psalm 110:1, then we clearly have an issue. You say that David called Abraham 'my Lord', yet Abraham is clearly still in the grave, his body buried in the cave of Machpelah. So, will dead Abraham 'judge among the heathen' and 'wound the heads over many countries'? [Psalm 110]

In Genesis 18:1 'the LORD' appeared to Abraham in the plains of Mamre. What was this 'appearance'? Did Abraham not see three men with his eyes? Was one of these men not 'the LORD'?

In Genesis 26:2 '.. the LORD appeared unto him [Isaac], and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:'

Who was it that appeared to Isaac? Why is the Spirit of God, an invisible God, called an 'appearance'?

IMO, if God comes to earth, then God takes on an appearance for man to recognise. If God chooses to appear as an angel, then he looks like a man but with spiritual qualities. If God chooses to become a man, then he must be born of flesh and blood, without compromising the Spirit of God.

Is God any less God for taking on an appearance, or covering himself with a shell? If it means calling him 'my Lord' instead of 'the LORD', then so be it.

Solomon posed the question, 'but will God indeed dwell on the earth?' [1 Kings 8:27] IMO, the answer is a definite 'Yes'. Why else would the question even be posed? Yet, the Jewish image of Messiah allows no possibility that the Saviour is God Himself. The Jewish Messiah is a king of human extraction, and a man of sin.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
"Israel", "Hebrews", and "Israel" refer to the same people-- Jews. The oldest is "Hebrews" with the other two being added later.

When Jews returned from the diaspora from Babylon, which is what Isaiah is largely about, the tribes got mixed because of the "remnants", and that they remain today. Thus, in no way does that book refer to Jesus and Christianity in any kind of direct way. But there's another way of looking at it and applying what's learned.
Isaiah was a prophet of God, and he unveils a picture 'concerning Judah and Jerusalem' which is panoramic in scope. He tells us about the first and second advents of Christ, but keeps hidden the 'mystery' of the Church.

In Isaiah 11:1 he declares, 'And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;'

Who do you think this is referring to?
 
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Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
You tell me how we are to recognise the 'salvation of God'.
- It's coming up winter so I think I'm going into hibernation mode.

- I'm not a Noachide anymore oh come on, Rival so I don't know why I bother. I like it.

- I assume you can read the text for yourself and look up Jewish commentary because Tumah, rosends, RabbiO, IndigoChild, Harel and I have had this out with you 209472973 times. It would be a good idea for you to invest in some good Jewish Tanakh commentary. You could invest in ArtScroll, Soncino, Rashi (heck, you can read him for free), Ramban, the list goes on and on.

- I'm in way too good a mood right now to ruin it.
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
- It's coming up winter so I think I'm going into hibernation mode.

- I'm not a Noachide anymore oh come on, Rival so I don't know why I bother. I like it.

- I assume you can read the text for yourself and look up Jewish commentary because Tumah, rosends, RabbiO, IndigoChild, Harel and I have had this out with you 209472973 times. It would be a good idea for you to invest in some good Jewish Tanakh commentary. You could invest in ArtScroll, Soncino, Rashi (heck, you can read him for free), Ramban, the list goes on and on.

- I'm in way too good a mood right now to ruin it.
Yes, we have discussed similar topics many times, and I do have access to Jewish commentaries. That's why I raise the issues again and again. The answers provided are just not satisfactory!
 

Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes, we have discussed similar topics many times, and I do have access to Jewish commentaries. That's why I raise the issues again and again. The answers provided are just not satisfactory!
I have the same with Christianity.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Isaiah was a prophet, unveiling the vision of God, not man.
Yep.

Jesus uses the words of Isaiah to claim his own anointing- see Luke 4. Do you think Jesus was deceiving people?
No, it's the traditional Jewish use of flashback then applied to a later person, such as Jesus being the "new Adam" and his being the "new Moses".

Isaiah simply cannot and does not deal with Jesus because of the locations and Jewish teachings dealing with the Law that permeate the book.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Isaiah was a prophet of God, and he unveils a picture 'concerning Judah and Jerusalem' which is panoramic in scope. He tells us about the first and second advents of Christ, but keeps hidden the 'mystery' of the Church.
See my post above.
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
Who do you think this is referring to?


Isaiah 11 contains a prophecy of the rise of a new Davidic king who will embody the ancient ideal of Davidic kingship vv1-9, an elaboration of that prophecy in a further description of that king’s rule (v10) and a prophecy of God’s deliverance of the chosen people from exile and cessation of enmities, vv11-16. Isaiah looks forward to a new Davidide who will realize the ancient ideals (Ps 72).
The oracle does not seem to have a particular historical person in mind.
Shoot…stump: the imagery suggests the bankruptcy of the monarchy as embodied in the historical kings, along with the need for a new beginning, to spring from the very origin from which David and his dynasty arose. Jesse: David’s father, 1Sm 16 1-13.
11, 10-16, This passage, with its reference to God’s people in widely scattered lands, is probably from a much later period. God will restore them to their own land. The reconciliation of Ephraim (i.e., the Northern Kingdom) and Judah reverses what Isaiah saw as a disastrous event of the past (7:17). God’s action is likened to a new exodus, analogous to the time God first acquired Israel in bringing them out of the land of Egypt.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Abraham was justified by faith, as it says in Genesis 15:6; 'Abram believed in the Lord, and he counted it to him for righteousness.'

The phrase "justified by faith" means nothing to me. Abraham HAD faith and that's a good thing.
In Genesis 26:4, it says, 'And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.' Is this 'seed' referring to the Jews, or to the body of Christ?

26:4 -- I will make your heirs as numerous as the stars of heaven, and assign to your heirs all these lands, so that all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves by your heirs—

So there, yes, the Jews.
If, as you claim, Abraham is the 'Lord' of Psalm 110:1, then we clearly have an issue. You say that David called Abraham 'my Lord', yet Abraham is clearly still in the grave, his body buried in the cave of Machpelah. So, will dead Abraham 'judge among the heathen' and 'wound the heads over many countries'? [Psalm 110]
You misunderstand 110. First, it is a vision so a dead Abraham sitting by God in heaven is certainly a thing. Next, 110 retells of Abraham's experiences in war when he did those things you recount and God participated with him. So God does that judging along with Abraham. I mean, there's more to this chapter, but start with this.
In Genesis 18:1 'the LORD' appeared to Abraham in the plains of Mamre. What was this 'appearance'? Did Abraham not see three men with his eyes? Was one of these men not 'the LORD'?
No. The three messengers/angels were not God. God is God.
In Genesis 26:2 '.. the LORD appeared unto him [Isaac], and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:'

Who was it that appeared to Isaac? Why is the Spirit of God, an invisible God, called an 'appearance'?
The Hebrew is vayera -- something appeared. This is used first with Abraham and indicates a level of prophecy that receives visions. You are asking "visions of what" and the answer is probably something specific to each individual. It says nothing about appearing as a man, just that there is a vision. In 12:7, the vision shows the land, so it could have been a vision of a map. No way to know.

Is God any less God for taking on an appearance, or covering himself with a shell? If it means calling him 'my Lord' instead of 'the LORD', then so be it.
Again with the capitals? The words in Hebrew are diffrent. Are "lord" and "lard" the same in English? The two words you discuss have different vowels.

Solomon posed the question, 'but will God indeed dwell on the earth?' [1 Kings 8:27] IMO, the answer is a definite 'Yes'. Why else would the question even be posed?
Solomon was asking about the purpose of a temple if God is larger than all the heavens. So if you want to say that God does dwell on earth then you also have to say "in the temple." As you claim jesus went to other places, it cannot be he who is referred to in 1 Kings.
Yet, the Jewish image of Messiah allows no possibility that the Saviour is God Himself. The Jewish Messiah is a king of human extraction, and a man of sin.
The Jewish image of the messiah is that the messiah is not a "savior" in some grand sense, but God IS a savior in that sense. The Jewish messiah is a king -- a huan. But who said "sinful"? That's your take.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yep.

No, it's the traditional Jewish use of flashback then applied to a later person, such as Jesus being the "new Adam" and his being the "new Moses".

Isaiah simply cannot and does not deal with Jesus because of the locations and Jewish teachings dealing with the Law that permeate the book.
What are you saying?! In Nazareth, Jesus stood up and read a Messianic passage from Isaiah 61. After reading the first portion, Jesus stopped and said, 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears'.

Isaiah must have known that the words he recorded were prophetic, and that they would be spoken by the future Messiah.

Rev.19:10. 'worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
In Nazareth, Jesus stood up and read a Messianic passage from Isaiah 61. After reading the first portion, Jesus stopped and said, 'This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears'.
Yes, that is what it says, but...

Isaiah must have known that the words he recorded were prophetic, and that they would be spoken by the future Messiah.
Prophets speak for God but only what God wants them to say. IOW, they are not omniscient, nor did all of the prophets predict any future events. Also, when we read scripture we must always remember that we are reading subjective material, not objective.

Either way, the Book of Isaiah is clearly about the Babylonian captivity and the return of the "remnants" with the expicit direction for follow the entire Law, not what was to happen five centuries later.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
The phrase "justified by faith" means nothing to me. Abraham HAD faith and that's a good thing.


26:4 -- I will make your heirs as numerous as the stars of heaven, and assign to your heirs all these lands, so that all the nations of the earth shall bless themselves by your heirs—

So there, yes, the Jews.

You misunderstand 110. First, it is a vision so a dead Abraham sitting by God in heaven is certainly a thing. Next, 110 retells of Abraham's experiences in war when he did those things you recount and God participated with him. So God does that judging along with Abraham. I mean, there's more to this chapter, but start with this.

No. The three messengers/angels were not God. God is God.

The Hebrew is vayera -- something appeared. This is used first with Abraham and indicates a level of prophecy that receives visions. You are asking "visions of what" and the answer is probably something specific to each individual. It says nothing about appearing as a man, just that there is a vision. In 12:7, the vision shows the land, so it could have been a vision of a map. No way to know.


Again with the capitals? The words in Hebrew are diffrent. Are "lord" and "lard" the same in English? The two words you discuss have different vowels.


Solomon was asking about the purpose of a temple if God is larger than all the heavens. So if you want to say that God does dwell on earth then you also have to say "in the temple." As you claim jesus went to other places, it cannot be he who is referred to in 1 Kings.

The Jewish image of the messiah is that the messiah is not a "savior" in some grand sense, but God IS a savior in that sense. The Jewish messiah is a king -- a huan. But who said "sinful"? That's your take.

I take issue on all these points.

1. Abraham had faith, and it was because he had faith that it was accounted to him as righteousness. A man cannot claim to have faith in God if they are living under the law. The law demands that commandments be DONE. Faith demands that God's voice be listened to, and followed. But without the Spirit of God upon us, how can we hope to hear the voice of God?

And, although you claim that justification by faith means nothing to you, it clearly means something to the prophets of the Tanakh.

Habakkuk 2:4. 'Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.'

2. You clearly have grand ambitions for the Jewish nation given that you think they will not only have a land of their own but will
be
'heirs to all these lands' or 'all these countries'! Will the Jewish people multiply so quickly as to become 'as numerous as the stars of heaven'?

3. Psalm 110 does not allow for Abraham to be the judge.
'For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.' [Isaiah 32:22]

4. When Abraham was visited by the three men at Mamre, Abraham falls to the ground and says, 'My LORD' ('YHWH', not 'Adonai'). So, based on your argument, the 'Lord' of Psalm 110 falls to the ground in front of his Lord, whom you do not acknowledge as God! How much idolatry is required before the real Lord is recognised?

5. I would say that the Spirit of God does choose to live in a temple, but not a temple built with hands.
Malachi 3:1. '
Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare a way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.'

6. If the Jewish Messiah is a man, born of two human beings, then he is a son of Adam. All men have sinned [I Kings 8:46]
 
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Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes, that is what it says, but...

Prophets speak for God but only what God wants them to say. IOW, they are not omniscient, nor did all of the prophets predict any future events. Also, when we read scripture we must always remember that we are reading subjective material, not objective.

Either way, the Book of Isaiah is clearly about the Babylonian captivity and the return of the "remnants" with the expicit direction for follow the entire Law, not what was to happen five centuries later.
I disagree strongly with this. All scripture is God-breathed. Prophets are spokespersons of God's word.

Without the Messianic prophecy provided in the Tanakh people would have no idea what to expect of the Messiah.
False Messiahs would be popping up everywhere. And they will, when ignorance allows it!

As regards the law, you're right, the whole law was required to be followed; something sinful man proved incapable of doing!
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
I take issue on all these points.
Feel free to.
1. Abraham had faith, and it was because he had faith that it was accounted to him as righteousness.
This makes no sense grammatically.
A man cannot claim to have faith in God if they are living under the law. The law demands that commandments be DONE. Faith demands that God's voice be listened to, and followed. But without the Spirit of God upon us, how can we hope to hear the voice of God?
More gobbledygook and a false dichotomy. I can follow a law as an expression of my faith. Why do I keep kosher? because God told me to and I have faith that God has a reason. A Jew listens to God's word and follows what God says because we have faith in the existence of and authority of God.
And, although you claim that justification by faith means nothing to you, it clearly means something to the prophets of the Tanakh.

Habakkuk 2:4. 'Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.'
oh, you mean "
But-d the righteous man is rewarded with life
For his fidelity."

And this does not explain at all that syntactical nightmare of "justification by faith."
2. You clearly have grand ambitions for the Jewish nation given that you think they will not only have a land of their own but will
be 'heirs to all these lands' or 'all these countries'! Will the Jewish people multiply so quickly as to become 'as numerous as the stars of heaven'?
Yes. That's the point.
3. Psalm 110 does not allow for Abraham to be the judge. 'For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.' [Isaiah 32:22]
Yeah...110:6 says that God will exercise judgment, not Abraham.
4. When Abraham was visited by the three men at Mamre, Abraham falls to the ground and says, 'My LORD' ('YHWH', not 'Adonai'). So, based on your argument, the 'Lord' of Psalm 110 falls to the ground in front of his Lord, whom you do not acknowledge as God! How much idolatry is required before the real Lord is recognised?
Actually, the text does NOT have the 4 letter name here. It has a plural "my lords" which is pronounced the same way that we pronounce the 4 letter name but the text is pretty clearly NOT using the 4 letter name. So your conclusion fails.
5. I would say that the Spirit of God does choose to live in a temple, but not a temple built with hands.
Malachi 3:1. 'Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare a way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.'
It is nice that you choose to say that. It discounts the entire conversation with Solomon that you started with but you gotta be you.
6. If the Jewish Messiah is a man, born of two human beings, then he is a son of Adam. All men have sinned [I Kings 8:46]
Now you are beginning to understand the difference between Solomon's time and the messianic age.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Isaiah 11 contains a prophecy of the rise of a new Davidic king who will embody the ancient ideal of Davidic kingship vv1-9, an elaboration of that prophecy in a further description of that king’s rule (v10) and a prophecy of God’s deliverance of the chosen people from exile and cessation of enmities, vv11-16. Isaiah looks forward to a new Davidide who will realize the ancient ideals (Ps 72).
The oracle does not seem to have a particular historical person in mind.
Shoot…stump: the imagery suggests the bankruptcy of the monarchy as embodied in the historical kings, along with the need for a new beginning, to spring from the very origin from which David and his dynasty arose. Jesse: David’s father, 1Sm 16 1-13.
11, 10-16, This passage, with its reference to God’s people in widely scattered lands, is probably from a much later period. God will restore them to their own land. The reconciliation of Ephraim (i.e., the Northern Kingdom) and Judah reverses what Isaiah saw as a disastrous event of the past (7:17). God’s action is likened to a new exodus, analogous to the time God first acquired Israel in bringing them out of the land of Egypt.
I'm happy to accept that a prophet may not understand all that he/she prophesies. The point is that God does understand what is meant, and also knows who will fulfil the prophecies!

Jesus, standing in the synagogue in Nazareth, had revelation that the words he was reading were intended for himself [Luke 4:16]. He also knew exactly where to end his reading.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Feel free to.

This makes no sense grammatically.

More gobbledygook and a false dichotomy. I can follow a law as an expression of my faith. Why do I keep kosher? because God told me to and I have faith that God has a reason. A Jew listens to God's word and follows what God says because we have faith in the existence of and authority of God.

oh, you mean "
But-d the righteous man is rewarded with life
For his fidelity."

And this does not explain at all that syntactical nightmare of "justification by faith."

Yes. That's the point.

Yeah...110:6 says that God will exercise judgment, not Abraham.

Actually, the text does NOT have the 4 letter name here. It has a plural "my lords" which is pronounced the same way that we pronounce the 4 letter name but the text is pretty clearly NOT using the 4 letter name. So your conclusion fails.

It is nice that you choose to say that. It discounts the entire conversation with Solomon that you started with but you gotta be you.

Now you are beginning to understand the difference between Solomon's time and the messianic age.

Saul of Tarsus, before becoming a Christian, knew what it meant to live as a Pharisee under the law. Having become a Christian he says,

'Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, the just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.'

Although you describe Judaism as a 'faith', it is only a faith in so far as the word denotes 'a religion'. To follow your religion you do not need to have faith in God at all. The requirement to qualify as 'righteous' is to follow all the commandments that are given to you from the prophet Moses (who, interestingly, was a man of faith). To fail in one, is to fail in all.

The temple of Solomon was filled with the 'shekinah' glory, or presence of God's Spirit, and, in similar fashion, Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit at baptism. It is no surprise that Solomon's temple was destroyed and never rebuilt with the glory of the Ark present. Nor is it a surprise that Herod's temple was utterly flattened, for the true temple of God, in answer to Solomon's question, had taken it's place. God's true temple, the spiritual body of Christ, has Christ as the cornerstone, and saints as the building blocks. IMO.

As I see it, the end of the 'times of the Gentiles' will mark the restart of the prophetic clock for Israel the nation.
 
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