about the new testament

Hermit Philosopher · Oct 10, 2021

syo said:
I've read the new testament. My opinion is that it's fake. Jesus is fake. He never existed. Why? Because the books don't make sense at all!

The books are about miracles that go against nature. Please!

Dear syo,

Scripture is intended to be read in a contemplative and spiritual context. You will not find its value if you approach it from a worldly perspective; that leads to misinterpretation and its general misuse.

Humbly
Hermit

Rival · Oct 10, 2021

YoursTrue said:
Many people believe that all the prophecies should have been fulfilled when Jesus was on the earth.

They should have. That's how it's given in the Tanakh. There's nothing about coming back a second time.

YoursTrue said:
In order to understand more about this, there is a natural Israel (those born into the Jewish religion or covenant, depending on how you look at it) and a spiritual Israel.

No. This is just a Christian belief with no precedence in Tanakh at all.

YoursTrue said:
Jesus fulfilled the prophecies but one must look at them properly.

I gave you them word for word, verbatim from the Tanakh. Did he or did he not fulfil them? It seems clear that he didn't.

YoursTrue said:
Perhaps you remember this, so the question I asked you about what you believe about Israel is relevant, but you don't have to answer it.

It's irrelevant because anyone, believer or not, can see that these things haven't happened.

Dropship · Oct 10, 2021

shunyadragon said:
..There are absolutely no known records for the existence of Jesus by philosophers, historians nor Roman records..

Think "Shredder" mate..

When christianity began snowballing in popularity after Jesus's execution, the snooty priests and Romans said "Oops better not let on it was us who killed him, quick shred all the documents implicating us or we'll have a Jesusgate scandal on our hands. Let's airbrush him out of history and start hassling christians, and people will soon quickly forget about him"..
Nevertheless 27 books did slip through the net and get published as the New Testament, how many more do you want?

Wandering Monk · Oct 10, 2021

Harel13 said:
Flavius Josephus (Hebrew name Yosef ben Matityahu) was a Jewish historian to the Roman emperors. Originally a Judean rebel, he became a turncoat and switched over to the Roman side in exchange for being allowed to live.

Here's what he says about Jesus:

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared." (Antiquities of the Jews, 18:3:3) (Josephus on Jesus - Wikipedia)

There is an Arabic version that is less fawning.

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

Harel13 · Oct 10, 2021

Wandering Monk said:
There is an Arabic version that is less fawning.

At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.

By the way, this thread is over a year old. At the time I hadn't bothered to really look into the subject of Josephus having mentioned Jesus. I'm now with the people who doubt the veracity of these sections and I believe they were inserted in by later Christians.

pearl · Oct 10, 2021

Polymath257 said:
I do want to be clear. I do think there was a historical Jesus. The basic story of an itinerant teacher/preacher fits quite well into the history of that location and time. I am more interested in how the legend grew to become what we see in the NT.

Scripture scholar Rudolph Bultmann, the historical man named 'Jesus' was an eschatological Jewish prophet whose original disciples(A.D. 30's) knew him only as such, and whom the post-apostolic (i.e. non-apostolic) Hellenistic church (late first century A.D.) deified as the Son of God: "Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God...,...the kerygma of the Hellenistic church proclaimed Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ" That each NT document was 1st shaped by the historical Jesus, 2nd, dressed in the mythical garb of the Gnostic heavenly redeemer. What I would glean from this, the NT authors selected from a 'sayings' of Jesus, remembered now by the Apostles, identified as the hypothetical "Q' source, and placed within narrative according to the needs of the churches in proclaiming Jesus' D/R.

Trailblazer · Oct 10, 2021

Dropship said:
You and Rival had better argue it out with Jesus when you meet him..

I might meet Jesus in heaven but Jesus is never going to return to this world unless Jesus lied or the New Testament in in error, and logically speaking if the New Testament is in error then that means the rest of the New Testament cannot be trusted to be correct either.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

The meaning of no more is below:

no more
phrase of more

nothing further.
"there was no more to be said about it"
no further.
"you must have some soup, but no more wine"
exist no longer.
"the patch of ground was overgrown and the hut was no more"
never again.
"mention his name no more to me"
neither.
"I had no complaints and no more did Tom"

Translate no more to
Definitions from Oxford Languages

Rival · Oct 10, 2021

Trailblazer said:
or the New Testament in in error

It's in error, throw it out

Dropship · Oct 10, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I might meet Jesus in heaven but Jesus is never going to return to this world..

Jesus said "I'll be back" to rescue Christians at the end of the world..

He said- "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark ch 13)

Trailblazer · Oct 10, 2021

Dropship said:
Jesus said "I'll be back" to rescue Christians at the end of the world..
He said- "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark ch 13)

No, Jesus never said ""I'll be back" to rescue Christians at the end of the world..

"
Jesus said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

In some instances Jesus was referring to himself as the Son of Man and we know that because of the context of those verses where the title is connected with the earthly life of Jesus we know about from cross verification (reading other verses). For example, we know from other verses that Jesus did the following when he came to earth:

But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins - he said to the paralytic (Mark 2:10).

So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28).

And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head (Matthew 8:20)

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10).

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again (Mark 8:31).

It is not a reasonable conclusion to assume that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Son of Man who would come in the clouds with great power and glory because:

(a) Great power and glory is not consistent with the personality of Jesus. Jesus was meek and lowly.

(b) Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus, so there is no reason to believe that Jesus was the only Son of Man: 37 Bible verses about Son Of Man

"Son of man", "son of Adam", or "like a man", are phrases used in the Hebrew Bible, various apocalyptic works of the intertestamental period, and in the Greek New Testament. In the indefinite form ("son of Adam", "son of man", "like a man") used in the Hebrew Bible it is a form of address, or it contrasts human beings against God and the angels, or contrasts foreign nations (like Persia and Babylon), which are often represented as animals in apocalyptic writings (bear, goat, or ram), with Israel which is represented as human (a "son of man"), or it signifies an eschatological human figure.

In its indefinite form it is used in the Greek Old Testament, Biblical apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. The Greek New Testament uses the earlier indefinite form while introducing a novel definite form, "the son of man."

Son of man - Wikipedia

(c) Jesus could not come back to earth in the same body because His body died on the cross. Jesus did not come back to life walk around and then ascend into the clouds to heaven and live there for 2000 years planning to return at some future date. This is all a belief that came into being from a misinterpretation and thus a misunderstanding of Bible verses, a grave misunderstanding.

(d) There are no verses wherein Jesus says He is coming back to earth and many verses where Jesus says He is not coming back to earth because His work is finished here: (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

The logical conclusion we can draw is that the Son of man and the second coming was another man. Since truth from God is revealed progressively, Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth to reveal more truth in the future, but Christians did not understand what Jesus was referring to and believed that was a reference to the Holy Spirit that was sent to the disciples at Pentecost when on fact those were titles for the man who would be the second coming of Christ who was the return of the Spirit of Christ.

YoursTrue · Oct 10, 2021

Rival said:
They should have. That's how it's given in the Tanakh. There's nothing about coming back a second time.

No. This is just a Christian belief with no precedence in Tanakh at all.

I gave you them word for word, verbatim from the Tanakh. Did he or did he not fulfil them? It seems clear that he didn't.

It's irrelevant because anyone, believer or not, can see that these things haven't happened.

It seems clear to me that these are on-going prophecies, the initial fulfillments were begun before Jesus died, and are continuing until their progression.

YoursTrue · Oct 10, 2021

Trailblazer said:
No, Jesus never said ""I'll be back" to rescue Christians at the end of the world.."
Jesus said:

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

In some instances Jesus was referring to himself as the Son of Man and we know that because of the context of those verses where the title is connected with the earthly life of Jesus we know about from cross verification (reading other verses). For example, we know from other verses that Jesus did the following when he came to earth:

But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins - he said to the paralytic (Mark 2:10).

So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28).

And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head (Matthew 8:20)

For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke 19:10).

And he began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again (Mark 8:31).

It is not a reasonable conclusion to assume that Jesus was referring to Himself as the Son of Man who would come in the clouds with great power and glory because:

(a) Great power and glory is not consistent with the personality of Jesus. Jesus was meek and lowly.

(b) Son of man is not a title that belongs exclusively to Jesus, so there is no reason to believe that Jesus was the only Son of Man: 37 Bible verses about Son Of Man

"Son of man", "son of Adam", or "like a man", are phrases used in the Hebrew Bible, various apocalyptic works of the intertestamental period, and in the Greek New Testament. In the indefinite form ("son of Adam", "son of man", "like a man") used in the Hebrew Bible it is a form of address, or it contrasts human beings against God and the angels, or contrasts foreign nations (like Persia and Babylon), which are often represented as animals in apocalyptic writings (bear, goat, or ram), with Israel which is represented as human (a "son of man"), or it signifies an eschatological human figure.

In its indefinite form it is used in the Greek Old Testament, Biblical apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha. The Greek New Testament uses the earlier indefinite form while introducing a novel definite form, "the son of man."

Son of man - Wikipedia

(c) Jesus could not come back to earth in the same body because His body died on the cross. Jesus did not come back to life walk around and then ascend into the clouds to heaven and live there for 2000 years planning to return at some future date. This is all a belief that came into being from a misinterpretation and thus a misunderstanding of Bible verses, a grave misunderstanding.

(d) There are no verses wherein Jesus says He is coming back to earth and many verses where Jesus says He is not coming back to earth because His work is finished here: (John 14:19, John 17:11, John 17:4, John 19:30)

The logical conclusion we can draw is that the Son of man and the second coming was another man. Since truth from God is revealed progressively, Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth to reveal more truth in the future, but Christians did not understand what Jesus was referring to and believed that was a reference to the Holy Spirit that was sent to the disciples at Pentecost when on fact those were titles for the man who would be the second coming of Christ who was the return of the Spirit of Christ.

I don't see that as two different men.

YoursTrue · Oct 10, 2021

Harel13 said:
By the way, this thread is over a year old. At the time I hadn't bothered to really look into the subject of Josephus having mentioned Jesus. I'm now with the people who doubt the veracity of these sections and I believe they were inserted in by later Christians.

Look, people don't believe there was a man called Moses as outlined in the scriptures either.

Subduction Zone · Oct 10, 2021

Dropship said:
Jesus said "I'll be back" to rescue Christians at the end of the world..
He said- "At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.
And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens" (Mark ch 13)

He predicted that he would be back when some of the disciples in that room with him were still alive. Man those are some OLLLLDDDDDD Jews!

Trailblazer · Oct 10, 2021

YoursTrue said:
I don't see that as two different men.

I see it as two different men because the Son of man in the clouds cannot be referring to Jesus, since Jesus said He was no more in the world and His work was finished here. That means that the return of Christ has to be referring to a different man.

Harel13 · Oct 10, 2021

YoursTrue said:
Look, people don't believe there was a man called Moses as outlined in the scriptures either.

I guess I'm not "people".

Trailblazer · Oct 11, 2021

Harel13 said:
I guess I'm not "people".

In that case I would not be people either since I also believe Moses existed.
I'll bet there are a lot of people who are not people.

Rival · Oct 11, 2021

Harel13 said:
I guess I'm not "people".

Trailblazer said:
In that case I would not be people either since I also believe Moses existed.
I'll bet there are a lot of people who are not people.

There are three non-people on RF. Who knew?

Aupmanyav · Oct 11, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I see it as two different men because the Son of man in the clouds cannot be referring to Jesus, since Jesus said He was no more in the world and His work was finished here. That means that the return of Christ has to be referring to a different man.

That is true. Jesus returned as Mahdi Mirza Gholam Ahmad of Kadian, Punjab India; who established the Ahmadiyya sect.

Kadian, Mirza Gholam Ahmad

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shunyadragon · Oct 11, 2021

Rival said:
It's in error, throw it out

No, sarcasm noted. Judgement of 'error' os subjective and sort of a Jeffersonian editor view of the NT, because it is in the context of an ancient tribal worldview. The NT as well as the whole Bible should be considered as it is; a historical literary narrative compiled, redacted and edited over a period of time It is not a history book, no original documents, by far most bot first person authorship.

Yes, it can be a source of spiritual and humanist inspiration depending on your perspective and belief, but considering the NT literal, first author testimony, and in absolute sense is beyond reality and known history of the text,

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