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Christians and Jews Mostly: Messiah

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Neither Rabbinic Judaism or Christianity accords with the Tanaka.

This depends on the beliefs of which of many diverse conflicting sects and divisions that have claimed to be the only one that is in accord with their scripture, and rejects all others. A very egocentric human view of God's relationship with humanity.

Christianity sees the 'New Testament' as the SPIRITUALIZATION
of the 'Old Testament,'

Yes? So what?

Thus the lamb's blood daubed on the lintel to save us from Egypt
and the Angel of Death is in Christ, for instance. And Israel is God's
People, the Holiest of Holies is the presence of God etc..

etc, etc, efc . . . does not explain the belief that only one of many diverse and conflicting beliefs that claims it is the only one.

Still reflects a very human view of animal and human sacrifice.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
But what makes their expectations erroneous when they're written in their scriptures?

Is there some belief that the Jews just wrote this themselves or something? I'm genuinely confused. I mean, rosends laid out the expectations with scriptural references on the first page of this thread. Could you please tell me what is wrong about them?
Rival, scriptures are written, rewritten, edited and redacted by humans. The bias of the OT is in favor of the Israelites because its written by Israelites and for an Israelite audience. We must bear in mind that the vantage point of the OT scriptures was from the Babylonian captivity after the devastating loss of their nation, sacred Temple and scattering. The priest class doubled down and recast their history from a secular history into a miraculous fiction.

Its true what our Jewish friends say, Jesus was forced into certain OT scriptures in justification for Jewish converts to the Jesus movement. Jesus was trying to start something new, a movement that derives its authority from faith in the Father not traditions or the lineage of a priest class.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
It is not a matter of God accepting the religions of the world.

. . . nor is it a matter pf God rejecting much of, which is a rather archaic anthropomorphic view of God. The Bible is distinctly and specifically progressive in God's relationship with humanity between the OT and NT/.

Reflects an ancient human view of animal and human sacrifice

The question remains whether God(s) is a ancient tribal God of one culture or religion or a universal God of all humanity and Creation.

It makes no difference that many cultures believed in animal or human sacrifice.
What counted is that we all understand the CONCEPT of sacrifice. Everything in
the bible is symbolic (that doesn't mean it's mythic - did you read about the findings
on Sodom and Gomorrah last week?)

The New Testament is the spiritualization of the Old - I don't see any difference
between the God of the Old and the God of the New covenant - the old is given
as symbols. Some talk about the vengeance of the OT God and don't give any
thought to what God did to the Jews in the NT - and for 2,000 years afterwards.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
But does Christianity have a universal message? Christianity offers personal salvation for everyone, equally. It's universal in a metaphorical sense, but it's not actually about making the universe a better place. It's a get-out-of-jail free card when doomsday comes. Doomsday destroys the universe. All of creation going down the drain. It's not about making the universe a better place, it's about making sure you get a place when there's no universe left.

By far most religions, divisions and sects claim to be universal in one way or another as the only WAY to be universal. This is not what I would remotely describe as universal relationship between God and humanity and Creation.

Frankly, I think the world was already in the process of moving towards monotheism when Christianity came along. A combination of luck and the fact that Christianity is many times over easier than Judaism got Christianity to win the day.

Unfortunately Christianity made a turn away from monotheism, to a more Roman/Hellenist version of anthropomorphic Tritheism with a pantheon of lesser gods.
 

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
You put up with my tantruming quite well and I am in never-ending awe of the folks who do.

I would put up with your tantruming if I knew you were doing it. Heck, I’ve been doing some tantruming on this thread this morning. I might even get into trouble for it.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
:facepalm:
Anyone who uses the term “those we call Jews today to be an innovation who do not understand the text they use in addition to it being corrupt in places” betray his or her ignorance of Judaism. There is as well an inference of….

Then tell me where I am wrong, give me a book or something, I do not deal in vagueness. Also what did I infer? I also hate it when I myself am vague but it happens sometimes, I try not to and if needed I will restate what I mean with more clarity and directness.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There is a reason Enoch and Elijah go to heaven without dying and will come back. There is a day they are all coming back, and with Prophets (a), they don't care about their own authority, it's about God ruling and he being the true king when they rule, and so Mahdi/Jesus/Elijah/Enoch/Khidr all will be ruling the world, and other chosen who are kept alive but we don't know about.

I don't see why some promises can't occur after he comes back.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
This depends on the beliefs of which of many diverse conflicting sects and divisions that have claimed to be the only one that is in accord with their scripture, and rejects all others. A very egocentric human view of God's relationship with humanity.



Yes? So what?



etc, etc, efc . . . does not explain the belief that only one of many diverse and conflicting beliefs that claims it is the only one.

Still reflects a very human view of animal and human sacrifice.

So what? You have two stories - a lamb slain and God's people sheltering under its blood.
... in both OT and NT, but in different circumstances.

Yes, animal sacrifice is a very 'human' view. God didn't give some quantul field equation
but something we understand, connect to and can be readily visualize.
The claim the bible makes is that it is history. I don't know of holy books of other cultures
who fully make this claim. Certainly Greeks haven't been searching Mount Olympus for
evidence of the gods, and Australian aborigines are not seeking evidence for the rainbow
serpent. But last week a 15 year study more or less fully verified the astonishing account
of Genesis 18,19 of Sodom and Lot, Even I wondered how much of this story was really
symbolic.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It makes no difference that many cultures believed in animal or human sacrifice.
What counted is that we all understand the CONCEPT of sacrifice. Everything in
the bible is symbolic (that doesn't mean it's mythic - did you read about the findings
on Sodom and Gomorrah last week?)

Nothing symbolic here. Animal and human sacrifice in the OT is very real and physical and NOT symbolic like all ancient cultures.

The New Testament is the spiritualization of the Old - I don't see any difference
between the God of the Old and the God of the New covenant - the old is given
as symbols. Some talk about the vengeance of the OT God and don't give any
thought to what God did to the Jews in the NT - and for 2,000 years afterwards.

Very insulting to Jews, and yes what you describe is Progressive Revelation.
 
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Rival

Si m'ait Dieus
Staff member
Premium Member
Rival, scriptures are written, rewritten, edited and redacted by humans. The bias of the OT is in favor of the Israelites because its written by Israelites and for an Israelite audience. We must bear in mind that the vantage point of the OT scriptures was from the Babylonian captivity after the devastating loss of their nation, sacred Temple and scattering. The priest class doubled down and recast their history from a secular history into a miraculous fiction.

Its true what our Jewish friends say, Jesus was forced into certain OT scriptures in justification for Jewish converts to the Jesus movement. Jesus was trying to start something new, a movement that derives its authority from faith in the Father not traditions or the lineage of a priest class.
So how then could Christians trust anything the Tanakh says, if this is the case, and why should they bother with it at all?
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
I am just saying the (or a, since there are dispies) Christian view on the matter, is essentially that our religion precedes theirs or that they have lost theirs and we are the true Israel. It's not that they are before us but that more there was a body around us which was shaken off, if that analogy works, but the Church is "from forever" and experienced progressive revelation but at times people (like Abraham) did in fact recognize things such as the Trinity. Partially false expectations built up around us and then God revealed it and they who held them were cast off, which is why I call it an innovation/younger religion in this sense. Perhaps these comments from St. Theophylact help make it clearer than my botched explanation:

"The life in Christ appeared in those holy ones [Abraham, Job, Enoch, Melchizedek, etc] who lived before the law and circumcision. For all these were not counted as righteous by the observances of the law and the commandments, but by living the evangelic life of the Gospel. But when the law came, this manner of life receded. When the law had been given, the evangelic life later shone forth again... sealed with the blood of Christ."

Then quoting from what Isaiah and the Psalter both say he makes a case they misunderstood things in essence again, saying: "The 'paths' are the ordinances of the law, which are well-trodden and ancient. He [Isaiah] is saying, therefore, 'prepare yourselves for the evangelic life, the life that is lived according to the Gospel, and make the commandments of the law straight, that is, make them spiritual.' For the Spirit is straight and right [Psalter]. So then, when you see a Jew who understands the content of the law in a fleshly manner, you may say, 'this man has not made straight the paths,' that is, he does not understand the law spiritually."

So it is not really a disregarding as if we think their views were definitely before us and were right and then we just ignore it, it is not this way for us at all.

Still represents an egocentric Roman/Hellenist anthropomorphic Tritheistic belief system that claims the tribal succession of Judaism, and not remotely reflects a relationship with God od humanity throughout the history of humanity with diverse and conflicting cultural and religious.

The Roman Church has a very questionable human moral and ethical history that does not have a consistent spiritual guidance for humanity that it claims.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
So what? You have two stories - a lamb slain and God's people sheltering under its blood.
... in both OT and NT, but in different circumstances.

Yes, animal sacrifice is a very 'human' view. God didn't give some quantul field equation
but something we understand, connect to and can be readily visualize.
The claim the bible makes is that it is history. I don't know of holy books of other cultures
who fully make this claim. Certainly Greeks haven't been searching Mount Olympus for
evidence of the gods, and Australian aborigines are not seeking evidence for the rainbow
serpent. But last week a 15 year study more or less fully verified the astonishing account
of Genesis 18,19 of Sodom and Lot, Even I wondered how much of this story was really
symbolic.

Again the Bible literally describes this history as very real and not symbolic as in the story of Sodom and Lot. The Bible is only a literary narrative from the perspective of the tribal world, times and culture it was written with no relationship to the universal nature of humanity through the history of humanity. This contradictory inconsistent nature of ancient religions does not reflect a universal perspective of humanity in the context of the claims of any one pf the diverse conflicting ancient beliefs when each one claims to be the only true universal way.

From the greater factual perspective no single religion, sect, division of variation could rationally nor consistently make a consistent claim In terms of the history of humany your claims are just one of many inconsistent beliefs,
 
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Lain

Well-Known Member
Still represents an egocentric Roman/Hellenist anthropomorphic Tritheistic belief system that claims the tribal succession of Judaism, and not remotely reflects a relationship with God od humanity throughout the history of humanity with diverse and conflicting cultural and religious.

The Roman Church has a very questionable human moral and ethical history that does not have a consistent spiritual guidance for humanity that it claims.

For the first part of your post I am confused about what it is that you mean and/or are saying here. How is there a Tritheistic belief system? What do you mean by "claims the tribal succession of Judaism"? How does this not reflect a relationship with God and what do diverse and conflicting cultures and religions have to do with this? What is egocentric here?

How does the Catholic Church not have a consistent spiritual guidance for humanity?
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
I shan't reinvent the wheel so I hope that cutting and pasting (and attributing) is acceptable:

"The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."

https://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
interesting cyrus was a messiah, or annointed, among others.

some of this sounds to much like self-adulation given deuteronomy 10:17

i don't believe most non-jews are going to go for a person promoting a religion above their own and as a world leader.

that isn't how people find common ground as a uniting force; whether buddhist, hindu, sikh, christian by promoting what you wear over what a people does.

pretty is as pretty does.
 
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Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
To Jews and Christians mostly but others are free to poke their noses in....

What is the Messiah meant to do, according to Tanakh?

No 'NT' quotes thanks.

I've tried this thread before, I'm bored, so I'm trying it again.
Based on the Jewish belief:

The messiah, will be a leader that will be smart and articulate and will lead the entire world leadership to a new era.
Not a spiritual era in the sense of heaven and all that, rather an era of peace and prosperity based on the original way of life humans were meant to live.
It is said: "ועולם כמנהגו נוהג"... This means that nothing will actually change in the world until this leader will "rise to power", and even after, the only thing that will change will be our way of understanding reality.

It is claimed that there are two possible events that will precede his coming:

Either a sort of a world war will occur (גוג ומגוג) that will be so brutal that it will render our world to near oblivion. This war will continue until this leader will arrive and lead humanity to peace and prosperity as a whole (not any specific country or religion).

The second possible event will be that humans will advance more on their own and this leader will come even sooner.

These are called : בעיתו או אחישנה
Meaning in his time or sooner.
It depends on the status humans will be at.

Besides that, it is claimed that Jerusalem will be the capital of the entire world, not is a sense of the entire world will be one country, rather that it will be the center of leadership for the entire world (kind of a "white house" of the world).

The third temple house will be built for all humans to enjoy.

Religions will be rendered irrelevant as the truth will be revealed and all will know God.

Some claim there will be a sort of resurrection, although it is not written per say in the bible, rather that people will be able to communicate with their lost loved ones.

There are many more details, but these are the core ideas.

It is very interesting, btw, to see, that technology slowly advances to a point where all these ideas become more and more probable.

Unlike what many think, the Jewish bible doesn't speak of any after life or spiritual worlds when the messiah arrives, rather a change in the energy of humanity (we will evolve to a "female energy" from "male energy"). This is also interesting that the recent developments in our society follows such a trend also.

Please note this is only the tip of the iceberg :) there are many other things that are predicted in the OT regarding the "After the days" (this is the Jewish name of the days of the messiah).
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Based on the Jewish belief:

The messiah, will be a leader that will be smart and articulate and will lead the entire world leadership to a new era.
Not a spiritual era in the sense of heaven and all that, rather an era of peace and prosperity based on the original way of life humans were meant to live.
It is said: "ועולם כמנהגו נוהג"... This means that nothing will actually change in the world until this leader will "rise to power", and even after, the only thing that will change will be our way of understanding reality.

Disagree with the 'entire world' leadership' perspective of Hebrew scripture of the Tanakh. The Tanakh only deals with the Hebrew tribal world perspective and not the 'entire world. The Messiah in the Tanakh only refers to rulers and promised future kings that represent the leadership for the salvation of the Hebrews and the restoration of the Hebrew nation.

The Tanakh can only be viewed in the universal perspective if you take a universal perspective in the greater context of the history of humanity and all the religions and cultures,
 

Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
The Tanakh only deals with the Hebrew tribal world perspective and not the 'entire world.

Just as an example:
  1. דָּבָר אֲשֶׁר חָזָה יְשַׁעְיָהוּ בֶּן־אָמוֹץ עַל־יְהוּדָה וִירוּשָׁלִָם׃
  2. וְהָיָה בְּאַחֲרִית הַיָּמִים נָכוֹן יִהְיֶה הַר בֵּית־יְהוָה בְּרֹאשׁ הֶהָרִים וְנִשָּׂא מִגְּבָעוֹת וְנָהֲרוּ אֵלָיו כָּל־הַגּוֹיִם׃
  3. וְהָלְכוּ עַמִּים רַבִּים וְאָמְרוּ לְכוּ וְנַעֲלֶה אֶל־הַר־יְהוָה אֶל־בֵּית אֱלֹהֵי יַעֲקֹב וְיֹרֵנוּ מִדְּרָכָיו וְנֵלְכָה בְּאֹרְחֹתָיו כִּי מִצִּיּוֹן תֵּצֵא תוֹרָה וּדְבַר־יְהוָה מִירוּשָׁלִָם׃
  4. וְשָׁפַט בֵּין הַגּוֹיִם וְהוֹכִיחַ לְעַמִּים רַבִּים וְכִתְּתוּ חַרְבוֹתָם לְאִתִּים וַחֲנִיתוֹתֵיהֶם לְמַזְמֵרוֹת לֹא־יִשָּׂא גוֹי אֶל־גּוֹי חֶרֶב וְלֹא־יִלְמְדוּ עוֹד מִלְחָמָה׃
There are several chapters detailing this...I recommend you study the Hebrew version as the translation is misleading many times.
The Messiah in the Tanakh only refers to rulers and promised future kings that represent the leadership for the salvation of the Hebrews and the restoration of the Hebrew nation.
This is wrong. The bible cleary states people will know God and follow his leadership. It is also claimed that leaders of the entire world will follow his rules as well.
The Tanakh can only be viewed in the universal perspective if you take a universal perspective in the greater context of the history of humanity and all the religions and cultures,
I don't understand what you mean by that.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
interesting cyrus was a messiah, or annointed, among others.

some of this sounds to much like self-adulation given deuteronomy 10:17

i don't believe most non-jews are going to go for a person promoting a religion above their own and as a world leader.

that isn't how people find common ground as a uniting force; whether buddhist, hindu, sikh, christian by promoting what you wear over what a people does.

pretty is as pretty does.
many were anointed. Many were "messiahs" in that sense. (Kings and high priests in ancient Israel). But the future king messiah is what is being discussed here, not just anyone who was anointed.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
To Jews and Christians mostly but others are free to poke their noses in....
What is the Messiah meant to do, according to Tanakh? No 'NT' quotes thanks..............

One place in particular I find is all of chapter 11 of Isaiah.
The Davidic Messiah according to Isaiah 11:4 is that he will judge the destitute with righteousness, and rebuke with firmess the humble of the earth. He will strike [the wicked of] the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.........
 
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