Christians and Jews Mostly: Messiah

Rival said:

It offers something or else it wouldn't be so popular, is my thinking.

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It does offer something. Sunglasses and a beach chair for the end of the world and then a ride to the hotel at the end of time.
Basically everything else are things that the winds of change were already bringing to the world.

Rival said:

People aren't flocking to other faiths, unless you're in weird Anglophone countries, really.

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I used to think that was weird, but no longer. I see it as part of the spiritual evolution of the world.

Harel13 said:

It does offer something. Sunglasses and a beach chair for the end of the world and then a ride to the hotel at the end of time.
Basically everything else are things that the winds of change were already bringing to the world.


I used to think that was weird, but no longer. I see it as part of the spiritual evolution of the world.

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You put up with my tantruming quite well and I am in never-ending awe of the folks who do

I guess my question to that would be the Roman Empire persecuting them horribly and them sticking with it. If it were just an easy way out then the faith of those does seem pretty extraordinary.

rosends said:

I shan't reinvent the wheel so I hope that cutting and pasting (and attributing) is acceptable:

"The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15)."

https://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

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Most people who are out of a job for a long time, with long hair, white robe, and sandals, are not as industrious as Jesus. The sons of powerful leaders are usually not as smart (though some do become leaders on the reputation of their fathers). The sons of powerful leaders are often rich and don't need to think or work. Perhaps God demands the same of us?

Rival said:

You put up with my tantruming quite well and I am in never-ending awe of the folks who do

I guess my question to that would be the Roman Empire persecuting them horribly and them sticking with it. If it were just an easy way out then the faith of those does seem pretty extraordinary.

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Romans eventually accepted Christianity. However, that might have been because they recognized that in religion there is power. That power could manipulate actions (wars, torture to convert, etc). For the centuries that followed, screams of pain echoed through the halls as they tortured their victims (very piously, I might add).

PruePhillip said:

The Messiah did not accept the religions of the general world,
and for that matter He rejected much of Israel. Nothing progressive.
But the Jews are a SYMBOL of God's people, just as the blood on
the door's lintel in Egypt was a symbol of the shelting blood of the
perfect lamb. And all the nations of the world can understand these
symbols and become a part of God's people too.

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It's hard to believe that bleeding a perfect lamb could make one part of God's people.

Rival said:

It's probably a consequence of the Evangelical movement, but as far as I can tell, people must be getting something out of it

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Christianity is centered on a man who they believe conquered death and purifies individuals of their sins. Moreover, the individual in Christianity is exalted: one belongs to a special people, one becomes a child of God the Father, one is promised an imperishable inheritance, the Spirit of God dwells in Christians instead of other people, and one might receive 'spiritual gifts' such as 'prophecy' or 'healing.' Additionally, to join Christianity is to join the largest religion of the world. Ultimately, I think what Christians get out of it is a human/divine hero and a sense of exaltation.

Rival said:

I just honestly do not get how Christianity exists in the face of evidence to the contrary (meaning: Judaism)

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I agree with you about the evidence to the contrary (and I can think of some things in the NT that, to me, are evidence against Christianity being the one true faith). It is likely a matter of people not caring to do their research.

Rival said:

converts to Islam usually only last about 4 years in that faith

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From what I understand, Islam can be quite appealing to some Westerners because not only is it Abrahamic and universal, it is so easy to understand and explain to other people unlike Christianity with its Nicene Creed, Trinity, and Ephesian/Chalcedonian christologies.

Rival said:

People aren't flocking to other faiths, unless you're in weird Anglophone countries, really.

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Two reasons that I think people are not flocking to other religions are (1) other religions do not really seek converts and (2) people are ignorant and misinformed about other religions. Look at Hinduism, for instance. There are no conversion ceremonies or missionaries (with the exception of what ISKCON does). Also, much of what people know about Hinduism is inaccurate: India's caste system being part of the religion, millions of deities to be worshiped, and widows immolating themselves. Personally, I think it might be wonderful if people were to flock to Sikhism, but hardly anybody really knows what it's about, and I don't think many individuals in America, for instance, want to wear turbans in public (they can always be Sahajdhari Sikhs though).

KenS said:

Now...
Isaiah 61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord

later....
2 , and the day of vengeance of our God;

To bring all nations to YHWY

Psalm 22:27-28
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
For the kingdom is the Lord’s
And He rules over the nations.

To create new hearts:

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

and so much more.

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Jesus sounds more like a cardiac surgeon than a carpenter.

mangalavara said:

Christianity is centered on a man who they believe conquered death and purifies individuals of their sins. Moreover, the individual in Christianity is exalted: one belongs to a special people, one becomes a child of God the Father, one is promised an imperishable inheritance, the Spirit of God dwells in Christians instead of other people, and one might receive 'spiritual gifts' such as 'prophecy' or 'healing.' Additionally, to join Christianity is to join the largest religion of the world. Ultimately, I think what Christians get out of it is a human/divine hero and a sense of exaltation.

I agree with you about the evidence to the contrary (and I can think of some things in the NT that, to me, are evidence against Christianity being the one true faith). It is likely a matter of people not caring to do their research.

From what I understand, Islam can be quite appealing to some Westerners because not only is it Abrahamic and universal, it is so easy to understand and explain to other people unlike Christianity with its Nicene Creed, Trinity, and Ephesian/Chalcedonian christologies.

Two reasons that I think people are not flocking to other religions are (1) other religions do not really seek converts and (2) people are ignorant and misinformed about other religions. Look at Hinduism, for instance. There are no conversion ceremonies or missionaries (with the exception of what ISKCON does). Also, much of what people know about Hinduism is inaccurate: India's caste system being part of the religion, millions of deities to be worshiped, and widows immolating themselves. Personally, I think it might be wonderful if people were to flock to Sikhism, but hardly anybody really knows what it's about, and I don't think many individuals in America, for instance, want to wear turbans in public (they can always be Sahajdhari Sikhs though).

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations

Christians: 2.3 billion, 31.11 percent of the world.

Islam: 1.9 billion, 24.9 percent of the world.

Agnostic or Atheist: 1.2 billion, 15.6 percent of the world.

What is the evidence that Christianity is not the one true faith?

"Not seeking converts" ....Trappist Monks take a vow of silence (they don't advertise well).

"don't want to wear turbans" (India's caste system)....especially if they mistake a turban for a head cast. In South America, they practice trepanation. I've always viewed trepanation with trepidation.

Brickjectivity said:

What if it happens the next day after one of us dies? What rotten luck to die just before!

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An advanced preview of heaven would be helpful. I wouldn't want to go to the same heaven as some preachers.

mangalavara said:

Christianity is centered on a man who they believe conquered death and purifies individuals of their sins. Moreover, the individual in Christianity is exalted: one belongs to a special people, one becomes a child of God the Father, one is promised an imperishable inheritance, the Spirit of God dwells in Christians instead of other people, and one might receive 'spiritual gifts' such as 'prophecy' or 'healing.' Additionally, to join Christianity is to join the largest religion of the world. Ultimately, I think what Christians get out of it is a human/divine hero and a sense of exaltation.



I agree with you about the evidence to the contrary (and I can think of some things in the NT that, to me, are evidence against Christianity being the one true faith). It is likely a matter of people not caring to do their research.



From what I understand, Islam can be quite appealing to some Westerners because not only is it Abrahamic and universal, it is so easy to understand and explain to other people unlike Christianity with its Nicene Creed, Trinity, and Ephesian/Chalcedonian christologies.



Two reasons that I think people are not flocking to other religions are (1) other religions do not really seek converts and (2) people are ignorant and misinformed about other religions. Look at Hinduism, for instance. There are no conversion ceremonies or missionaries (with the exception of what ISKCON does). Also, much of what people know about Hinduism is inaccurate: India's caste system being part of the religion, millions of deities to be worshiped, and widows immolating themselves. Personally, I think it might be wonderful if people were to flock to Sikhism, but hardly anybody really knows what it's about, and I don't think many individuals in America, for instance, want to wear turbans in public (they can always be Sahajdhari Sikhs though).

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CONQUERING DEATH:

Did Christ conquer death any more than any other soul that made it to heaven? Is it really conquering death to be dead among other dead souls in heaven? Is it really conquering death to be unable to get back to earth for many years?

PURGING SINS:

Did Jesus really purge us of sins? It seems to me that atonement purges sins. If people didn't atone to enter heaven, then heaven must be filled with unatoned sinners (murderers, child rapists, thieves, etc).

SPIRIT OF GOD ONLY DWELLS IN CHRISTIANS:

God thinks that all people are his children. Does God only accept certain religions for heaven?

SPIRITUAL GIFTS (HEALING, PROPHECY):

Most people can't tell that prophets are real, and are often taken in by phonies, while real prophets of God were recently ignored when they iterated Revelation's warning not to attack Iraq. The world didn't listen to the prophets of God because fear (of the Al Qaeda and terrorism) drove out thoughts to obey God.

Clara Tea said:

It's hard to believe that bleeding a perfect lamb could make one part of God's people.

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It can't. But we are asked to respect the symbolism - as He
died for us we must die to ourselves.

Rival said:

To Jews and Christians mostly but others are free to poke their noses in....

What is the Messiah meant to do, according to Tanakh?

No 'NT' quotes thanks.

I've tried this thread before, I'm bored, so I'm trying it again.

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For ages seers knew of the coming of the Son of God. In Judaism this evolved into specific, inflexible expectations of a priest/prophet/king/nationalist military leader. The Son of God incarnate early on realized that he could NOT fulfill the erroneous expectations of the Jewish people. But he was in fact the deliverer, the savior long expected for the world, not a self described "chosen people". Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah. There will never be a Jewish Messiah as that concept became fixed in Judaism.

* The Jews were and still are looking for a material kingdom.

* The kingdom Jesus established 2000 years ago is a spiritual kingdom for ALL people, a world wide fellowship of believers.

cOLTER said:

For ages seers knew of the coming of the Son of God. In Judaism this evolved into specific, inflexible expectations of a priest/prophet/king/nationalist military leader. The Son of God incarnate early on realized that he could NOT fulfill the erroneous expectations of the Jewish people. But he was in fact the deliverer, the savior long expected for the world, not a self described "chosen people". Jesus wasn't the Jewish Messiah. There will never be a Jewish Messiah as that concept became fixed in Judaism.

* The Jews were and still are looking for a material kingdom.

* The kingdom Jesus established 2000 years ago is a spiritual kingdom for ALL people, a world wide fellowship of believers.

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But what makes their expectations erroneous when they're written in their scriptures?

Is there some belief that the Jews just wrote this themselves or something? I'm genuinely confused. I mean, rosends laid out the expectations with scriptural references on the first page of this thread. Could you please tell me what is wrong about them?

Rival said:

Mine doesn't

I just don't see why so many people discard what the Jews say. They were given this message but it seems like everyone decided they're wrong. I have no idea why people think the people who were given the scriptures in their own language and had been studying it for 1000 years before Christianity even existed don't get it. So it baffles me why people think they apparently manage to get it so wrong.

I suspect it's because people don't like the idea that the messiah is mainly for Israel and they instead want a more universal message. IOW they're having the same problem I had with Judaism: "It's not for you."

But that doesn't mean it's not true.

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Yes, the Jews did have the scriptures and for more than 1000 years before the Messiah appeared. Even within Jewish thought, there were different positions and thus had Sadducees, Pharisees and others.

It was the Jewish people that started the message of the suffering Messiah and the coming of the Reigning Messiah. We don't discount all that Orthodox Jewish people share, we just include what the Messianic Jewish share. Even so, we have to be careful as Jewish Pharisee Paul said:

Rom 11:16 Since Abraham and the patriarchs are consecrated and set apart for God, so also will their descendants be set apart. If the roots of a tree are holy and set apart for God, so too will be the branches.17 However, some of the branches have been pruned away. And you, who were once nothing more than a wild olive branch, God has grafted in—inserting you among the remaining branches as a joint partner to share in the wonderful richness of the cultivated olive stem. 18 So don’t be so arrogant as to believe that you are superior to the natural branches. There’s no reason to boast, for the new branches don’t support the root, but you owe your life to the root that supports you! TPT.

I used the NT - only to explain your statement.

Notice that Jews are still part of the Olive Tree and Christian ought not to be arrogant because it is the Jewish Olive Tree that we are grafted into.

KenS said:

Notice that Jews are still part of the Olive Tree and Christian ought not to be arrogant because it is the Jewish Olive Tree that we are grafted into.

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Then why aren't you Torah observant Jews?

Clara Tea said:

It's hard to believe that bleeding a perfect lamb could make one part of God's people.

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As hard as a bull offering where17 He shall dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle it before the LORD seven times in front of the curtain. - will take care of sin?

Rival said:

Then why aren't you Torah observant Jews?

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Don't understand the question. The Torah is the foundation of what we believe in as much as the disciples preached from it. There is a difference between the Law of Moses and the faith of Abraham.

Clara Tea said:

Jesus sounds more like a cardiac surgeon than a carpenter.

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True... True:

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

PruePhillip said:

The Messiah did not accept the religions of the general world,

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It is not a matter of God accepting the religions of the world.

. . . and for that matter He rejected much of Israel. Nothing progressive.

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. . . nor is it a matter pf God rejecting much of, which is a rather archaic anthropomorphic view of God. The Bible is distinctly and specifically progressive in God's relationship with humanity between the OT and NT/.

But the Jews are a SYMBOL of God's people, just as the blood on
the door's lintel in Egypt was a symbol of the shelting blood of the
perfect lamb. And all the nations of the world can understand these
symbols and become a part of God's people too.

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Reflects an ancient human view of animal and human sacrifice

The question remains whether God(s) is a ancient tribal God of one culture or religion or a universal God of all humanity and Creation.

Lain said:

As for me I disregard what they say because Post-Temple Rabbinic Judaism is not the same religion Moses or Abraham had. I actually consider the religion of Jesus and Apostles to be the same [as that of Abraham, Moses, David, and those who followed them] and those who we call Jews today to be an innovation who do not understand the text they use in addition to it being corrupt in places. It's similar to how I disregard was Muslims say about my religion, has nothing to do with me taking from them then altering it. Not to mention the central figure in my religion said they were wrong in their interpretation so there is that aspect also.

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Anyone who uses the term “those we call Jews today to be an innovation who do not understand the text they use in addition to it being corrupt in places” betray his or her ignorance of Judaism. There is as well an inference of….

I might otherwise tend to think you were unintentional in the tone of your remarks. However, since we know that you frequent a website whose section on Jews consists of articles that are one anti-Semitic turd after another, I’m having difficulty doing that.