What do you as a person gain from it?

Nimos · Oct 6, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
So if I understand you correctly, when you ask or even critique someone, you do it out of curiosity and the willingness to learn? If yes, that is a very good way to think

I don't expect to convince anyone of anything, I don't think it is possible in the sense that some people might think about it. Like if I told you that God can't be real because of this and that... I don't expect that your next reply to me, is going to be that now you are an atheist. If you should do that, these doubts or thoughts have been with you far longer than my post have, if that makes sense.

But on the other side, the only way we are ever going to change our views, is by talking with each other and sharing opinions and knowledge. If we decide to not do that, we are just going to live in our own little bubble, which is certain to be wrong, because its almost impossible, if not impossible to change ones views, unless you are affected by some form of new information, whether that is through a chat here on RF, an article you read, something you see on TV or whatever it might be.
But again, its a long process and I know that you already know this as well, because you didn't always used to be into Sufism, and I highly doubt that it was a single piece of information that made you change your views, the doubts and uncertainty were already there and eventually you realized that Sufism probably were more correct.

So, No my intention or purpose is never to try to convince someone, but it is an unavoidable outcome simply from sharing views I think. Which goes both ways obviously.
And I would never refuse or avoid someone's view on anything, whether they are racists or whatever they might believe in as being true, simply because I don't think anything can be gained from doing that. The only time I will not comment on something on purpose, is if I don't have an interest in it, or I don't feel I know enough or anything at all, about a given topic that would add anything useful to it, but in that case I would turn to questions and for them to clarify things, for me to learn more.

But that is basically the only two reasons I would avoid a topic.

Spirit of Light · Oct 6, 2021

Nimos said:
I don't expect to convince anyone of anything, I don't think it is possible in the sense that some people might think about it. Like if I told you that God can't be real because of this and that... I don't expect that your next reply to me, is going to be that now you are an atheist. If you should do that, these doubts or thoughts have been with you far longer than my post have, if that makes sense.

But on the other side, the only way we are ever going to change our views, is by talking with each other and sharing opinions and knowledge. If we decide to not do that, we are just going to live in our own little bubble, which is certain to be wrong, because its almost impossible, if not impossible to change ones views, unless you are affected by some form of new information, whether that is through a chat here on RF, an article you read, something you see on TV or whatever it might be.
But again, its a long process and I know that you already know this as well, because you didn't always used to be into Sufism, and I highly doubt that it was a single piece of information that made you change your views, the doubts and uncertainty were already there and eventually you realized that Sufism probably were more correct.

So, No my intention or purpose is never to try to convince someone, but it is an unavoidable outcome simply from sharing views I think. Which goes both ways obviously.
And I would never refuse or avoid someone's view on anything, whether they are racists or whatever they might believe in as being true, simply because I don't think anything can be gained from doing that. The only time I will not comment on something on purpose, is if I don't have an interest in it, or I don't feel I know enough or anything at all, about a given topic that would add anything useful to it, but in that case I would turn to questions and for them to clarify things, for me to learn more.

But that is basically the only two reasons I would avoid a topic.

Honestly I truly like your answer

Thank you for sharing.

Nakosis · Oct 6, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
What do you as a person gain from making criticizing other people's religions or worldviews?
Is it important for you to get your own opinion and view across?

Or is your criticism a sign of being curious but not knowing how to ask so both you and the one you question can feel good about the discussion?

I think we benefit from criticism. Doesn't mean we always like it.
Still, seeing our beliefs from someone else's perspective may benefit our perspective as well.

Spirit of Light · Oct 6, 2021

Nakosis said:
I think we benefit from criticism. Doesn't mean we always like it.
Still, seeing our beliefs from someone else's perspective may benefit our perspective as well.

I think one can learn from getting questions asked toward oneself, but there is no reason to "defend" one`s position with critizism back made to harm

Nakosis · Oct 6, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
I think one can learn from getting questions asked toward oneself, but there is no reason to "defend" one`s position with critizism back made to harm

Yes, kind of human nature to get defensive though. Hard to let go of this instinctual need to defend our truths.

Spirit of Light · Oct 6, 2021

Nakosis said:
Yes, kind of human nature to get defensive though. Hard to let go of this instinctual need to defend our truths.

It does take effort yes. and time...

firedragon · Oct 6, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
What do you as a person gain from making criticizing other people's religions or worldviews?
Is it important for you to get your own opinion and view across?

Or is your criticism a sign of being curious but not knowing how to ask so both you and the one you question can feel good about the discussion?

By criticise, do you mean "insult"? Think about it. In the academic circles, criticism is a structured practice, not just insult other religions.

For example, the Ulum al hadith would be called Hadith Criticism in English. Christian theologians, Seminaries and Bible scholars practice criticism. E.g. Narrative criticism, redaction criticism, source criticism, form criticism etc. They are considered noble practices.

The problem is many who think they are criticising are just cut and paste artists. Its a day to day occurrence when people go to a website with lists, mostly run by some hate mongerer who makes money from it, and think they have scholarship, and come and repeat that level of absurd scholarship yet pretend they are honest experts on the subject. But at the outset itself you know that the knowledge level is less than par. That is not criticism. That is I think seeking pleasure by insulting other religions.

But you should know that this forum has been instrumental in at least two peoples education that I know personally. I am serious. I will not mention names so if you think this is bogus, you can drop it like its hot.

One guy embarked on a Phd thesis on a particular subject that came up from this forum itself. Its the subject of sources, and ancestry of sources. It was a historical study. Another person has retired down under with a small part-time lecturing job for her pastime and some extra money. She studied Arabic and Sanskrit, which is very rare. Inspired from this very forum.

I am only telling you these things so that you know the value. Some of the arguments will be utter lies. You will know what kind of made up stories they bring, and you can use that knowledge elsewhere, knowing it. Yet, some layman might bring up something so profound you will never ever expect, and that might send you on a whole new path.

So brother. Know one thing. Criticism is not insulting other peoples religions. Criticism is a structured methodology of analysis. You are a Muslim so let me tell you that since around the fourth century Hijri, after lets say someone like Frabri who actually was the narrator of Bukharis whole corpus of ahadith, the total approach to it is "criticism". From Imam Malik, to Bukhari, to Ibn Rushd, to Ibn Arabi, what they predominantly did was "criticism". This is very old Islamic tradition. Criticism is done with an open mind, not with an agenda behind you. I mean typically. Criticism is very important. In Islamic tradition they said "Thabanni wa rafaad" in ahadith studies. That means "we accept and reject hadith". So the only way to practice that is to "criticise". In Christian tradition or biblical scholarship they have criticism taught in seminary. Seminary is not some anti Christian movement, it is a Christian, church lead, priest taught, religious matter.

Thats how the cookie crumbles.

Shalom.

Spirit of Light · Oct 6, 2021

firedragon said:
By criticise, do you mean "insult"? Think about it. In the academic circles, criticism is a structured practice, not just insult other religions. For example, the Ulum al hadith would be called Hadith Criticism in English. Christian theologians, Seminaries and Bible scholars practice criticism. E.g. Narrative criticism, redaction criticism, source criticism, form criticism etc. They are considered noble practices.

The problem is many who think they are criticising are just cut and paste artists. Its a day to day occurrence when people go to a website with lists, mostly run by some hate mongerer who makes money from it, and think they have scholarship, and come and repeat that level of absurd scholarship yet pretend they are honest experts on the subject. But at the outset itself you know that the knowledge level is less than par. That is not criticism. That is I think seeking pleasure by insulting other religions.

But you should know that this forum has been instrumental in at least two peoples education that I know personally. I am serious. I will not mention names so if you think this is bogus, you can drop it like its hot.

One guy embarked on a Phd thesis on a particular subject that came up from this forum itself. Its the subject of sources, and ancestry of sources. It was a historical study. Another person has retired down under with a small part-time lecturing job for her pastime and some extra money. She studied Arabic and Sanskrit, which is very rare. Inspired from this very forum.

I am only telling you these things so that you know the value. Some of the arguments will be utter lies. You will know what kind of made up stories they bring, and you can use that knowledge elsewhere, knowing it. Yet, some layman might bring up something so profound you will never ever expect, and that might send you on a whole new path.

So brother. Know one thing. Criticism is not insulting other peoples religions. Criticism is a structured methodology of analysis. You are a Muslim so let me tell you that since around the fourth century Hijri, after lets say someone like Frabri who actually was the narrator of Bukharis whole corpus of ahadith, the total approach to it is "criticism". From Imam Malik, to Bukhari, to Ibn Rushd, to Ibn Arabi, what they predominantly did was "criticism". This is very old Islamic tradition. Criticism is done with an open mind, not with an agenda behind you. I mean typically. Criticism is very important. In Islamic tradition they said "Thabanni wa rafaad" in ahadith studies. That means "we accept and reject hadith". So the only way to practice that is to "criticise". In Christian tradition or biblical scholarship they have criticism taught in seminary. Seminary is not some anti Christian movement, it is a Christian, church lead, priest taught, religious matter.

Thats how the cookie crumbles. Shalom.

Thank you for a very good answer @firedragon yes there are different forms of making critiques

Even you touched in on it here, the OP was meant to ask about the critique that a person would do to harm or discredit other people and their beliefs or worldview. or to boost their own ego.
I wanted to understand what they think they will gain from doing something like that.

Sirona · Oct 6, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
What do you as a person gain from making criticizing other people's religions or worldviews?
Is it important for you to get your own opinion and view across?

Or is your criticism a sign of being curious but not knowing how to ask so both you and the one you question can feel good about the discussion?

First, I deeply dislike what I perceive as an unspoken assertion that any kind of criticism is bad, or that every critic basically has a harmful intention, just basically wants to boost his ego with it, etc.

As for the question of why religions are criticized, I think it may be a matter of specifying one's own faith and distinguishing oneself from what one does not believe.

For example, let's make it very simple. Let's take a word like "God" and and ask a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim who "God" is, who he favors, what he forbids, what "God" can or cannot do, etc. You get 3 completely different views, and depending on the political climate, the three religions either are friendly to each other and claim to worship the same God or they don't. And that only applies to the three supposedly related Abrahamic religions. I can't find anything bad in making one's way through such a jungle, or in finding obvious contradictions, for example, in the claims of the religions mentioned.

Spirit of Light · Oct 6, 2021

Sirona said:
First, I deeply dislike what I perceive as an unspoken assertion that any kind of criticism is bad, or that every critic basically has a harmful intention, just basically wants to boost his ego with it, etc.

As for the question of why religions are criticized, I think it may be a matter of specifying one's own faith and distinguishing oneself from what one does not believe.

For example, let's make it very simple. Let's take a word like "God" and and ask a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim who "God" is, who he favors, what he forbids, what "God" can or cannot do, etc. You get 3 completely different views, and depending on the political climate, the three religions either are friendly to each other and claim to worship the same God or they don't. And that only applies to the three supposedly related Abrahamic religions. I can't find anything bad in making one's way through such a jungle, or in finding obvious contradictions, for example, in the claims of the religions mentioned.

I added the word negative criticism instead of just asking about criticism

stvdv · Oct 6, 2021

Nimos said:
So, No my intention or purpose is never to try to convince someone, but it is an unavoidable outcome simply from sharing views I think.

I like that

Nimos said:
Which goes both ways obviously.

Seems true to me

By sharing views with each other, all are free to gain whatever they need

My main objective is becoming a "loving person"; peeling off the undesirable stuff

I believe the Truth will reveal itself when all "peeling" is done, hence I never debate about Truth

Mock Turtle · Oct 6, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
But what do you as a person gain yourself, from making critiques of the believers, where does the need for making critique come from? People will be different and will believe different things and some will hold that belief very strongly, but if it does not harm anyone should it be critiqued?

Why would you expect me to gain anything? Religious beliefs cause too many harms to just ignore them. Would you expect all to ignore anything else they saw as negative influences in the world, and where they did cause harms to others, even if not in one's own country?

That is why so many will be critical, because they do often see the harms that religious beliefs cause.

Mock Turtle · Oct 6, 2021

KenS said:
In my case, it isn't really that I come in the attitude of "I'm obviously right" but rather a defense of "you obviously saying I'm wrong doesn't make it wrong".

But so many are just arrogant as to such - and one thing I generally can't stand.

Spirit of Light · Oct 6, 2021

Mock Turtle said:
Why would you expect me to gain anything? Religious beliefs cause too many harms to just ignore them. Would you expect all to ignore anything else they saw as negative influences in the world, and where they did cause harms to others, even if not in one's own country?

That is why so many will be critical, because they do often see the harms that religious beliefs cause.

Religious/spiritual practice to me means to better ones own being, so those who do evil in the name of religion is not practicing religion or spiritual teaching (in my understanding)
So in a way the critique should not be toward the religion, but toward those who claim to do it in the name of the religion but clearly do not practice love and compassion.

This Is a reason why i woke up a few days ago and realized that i should not make critiques of others if I can not even fix my own wrongdoings and errors.

9-10ths_Penguin · Oct 6, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
What do you as a person gain from making negative criticism of other people's religions or worldviews?
Is it important for you to get your own opinion and view across?

Or is your criticism a sign of being curious but not knowing how to ask so both you and the one you question can feel good about the discussion?

Generally, when I criticize a religion, either:

- someone has asked for people to comment on their beliefs or religion and I'm just answering the question asked, or
- the religion is negatively imposing itself on non-adherents, and I'd like the religion to stop it or address past harms that they've committed.

Vinayaka · Oct 6, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
What do you as a person gain from making negative criticism of other people's religions or worldviews?
Is it important for you to get your own opinion and view across?

Or is your criticism a sign of being curious but not knowing how to ask so both you and the one you question can feel good about the discussion?

A person can gain knowledge of the world, and of human behaviour from a non-judgmental critique.

9-10ths_Penguin · Oct 6, 2021

Conscious thoughts said:
Religious/spiritual practice to me means to better ones own being, so those who do evil in the name of religion is not practicing religion or spiritual teaching (in my understanding)
So in a way the critique should not be toward the religion, but toward those who claim to do it in the name of the religion but clearly do not practice love and compassion.

So religion can do no wrong? Convenient.

To me, a religion is made up the beliefs and practices of its adherents, so it's entirely possible for a religion to be good or bad. I would say most are a mix of both.

Kooky · Oct 6, 2021

Vinayaka said:
A person can gain knowledge of the world, and of human behaviour from a non-judgmental critique.

Isn't it in the nature of criticism to judge? What would you consider non-judgemental criticism?

osgart · Oct 6, 2021

It's about truth and the nature of reality; everybody has a stake in those two things.

Who's truth is going to govern, who's reality are we going to live. Why? How? What for? Are there consequences?

In a republic or a democracy, everyone wants their voice heard. That's the strength of the system.

If truth is served, criticism, and critiquing make us all better if done with the best spirit of things possible.

Effective criticism is done in a positive way, and it's far better to know who is out there opposing you then if we were all silent and passive.

Everyone has their right to beliefs and convictions that harm no one. But I see nothing wrong with criticizing and critiquing anyone; it may make a positive difference in someone's life.

Making a positive difference is the spirit of good criticism. Otherwise it's going to be a battle or a conflict, and a person needs damn good reasons for those things.

Tolerance, freedom from religion, and freedom of religion are also equally important. That makes secular convictions of prime importance.
Secular convictions can fail as well.

Nobody's perfect! It's best that we all know what we are facing in the most peaceful of ways.

Spirit of Light · Oct 6, 2021

9-10ths_Penguin said:
So religion can do no wrong? Convenient.

To me, a religion is made up the beliefs and practices of its adherents, so it's entirely possible for a religion to be good or bad. I would say most are a mix of both.

In my understanding religion is the teaching how to get closer to God. so if something does go wrong, it is on the human side, not from God.

What do you as a person gain from it?

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