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Do you practice what the bible says?

DNB

Christian
My problem with your definition is that you are basically using even more complex concepts to explain complex concept. Like "transcending the flesh and living by spirit"; that's not exactly all that clear. Do you mean by that "worldly" things means things that aren't virtuous within your religious framework. For example, charity is virtuous, but buying toilet paper is worldly. Is that correct?

What's the difference between "wordly things" and "sinful things"? The two seem quite similar.

If that's not not intended to abuse, ridicule or demean, then I don't know what such comments are. Your post 22 clearly states that this is not what you stand for and yet you clearly insult and demean an entire population. Have you failed your own morality and did something bad when you wrote those line or did you do something good?
Worldy means shallow, materialistic, motivated by basal passions, hedonistic, lacking spiritual insights and depth. The difference between a Buddhist monk and a porn star, a philosopher and a hit-man or gang-banger, a legislator and a criminal. A spiritual person is one who concerns himself with determining right from wrong, edification and subversion, good from bad...

My views allow me to call someone depraved, who is depraved, and compassionate when they are compassionate, and wicked when they are wicked, and deranged when they are deranged.
Why in the world would you question that?
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I know, for example, that there are a lot of Christian denominations who do NOT live by 1 Timothy 2:11-15 (New International Version).

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.


Now, I have heard tell that there are a few congregations where women lead -- taking on the offices of Minister and Pastor.

Then if we look at Adam and Eve as a Metephor, Adam being man, Eve the Soul and being born again is the child of the connection of Adam with the Soul and being born again. That is the saviour of our soul both men and women the species of man.

So we do not have to look at that as a martial submission of women to men, but as mankind's submission, the human spirit to the Holy Spirit given of God.

The Bible is a wonder when we look beyond the Material.

Regards Tony
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Worldy means shallow, materialistic, motivated by basal passions, hedonistic, lacking spiritual insights and depth. The difference between a Buddhist monk and a porn star, a philosopher and a hit-man or gang-banger, a legislator and a criminal. A spiritual person is one who concerns himself with determining right from wrong, edification and subversion, good from bad...

Then what's the difference between wordly and sinful in that case? Are they synonimous? Are they similar but of a different scale (like wordly being like sinful but better or worst)?

I'm asking a lot of question because your use of the term is vastly different than the one I am used which is "wordly" as in "of this world" or in reference to the natural world in opposition to the supernatural. A "wordly" problem is thus a problem observable in reality as opposed to a metaphysical problem for example.

My views allow me to call someone depraved, who is depraved, and compassionate when they are compassionate, and wicked when they are wicked, and deranged when they are deranged.
Why in the world would you question that?

Because your "assessment" of homosexual people's character was obviously slanderous, mean spirited, overly sweeping, based on prejudice and deranged. Obviously many homosexuals aren't crass, nor vulgar but extremely polite and cultured and soft spoken. Some are extremely generous and charitable, thus not selfish. Some are prude and reserved and thus not bimboish, etc. Laura Jane Adams, a Nobel peace prize winner, philosopher, social worker, founder of the ACLU and leader of the women's suffrage movement would be one good example of a homosexual person being the exact opposite as would famous poet, philosopher and early environmentalist Vicente Aleixandre (also a Nobel prize winner, but in literature). These are just two examples of homosexual people being far more generous, cultured, charitable, pro-social and enlightened than the common man. Thus there are many more, less illustrious, but still very good, living around today.

Your explanation also seems like a petty excuse of a person of low moral character. Do you know anybody who insult someone else without thinking the insult is apt? It basically gives you "carte blanche" to insult and demean anybody you want on the basis that "you believe you are correct". That basically makes your injunction to never demean, insult or slander others completely moot by creating a giant escape hatch for any behavior. It's even more unsettling coming from a self-described Christian; a religion with a clear as crystal injunction against judging others for none are truly pure and thus all judgement should be directed inward.
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Then if we look at Adam and Eve as a Metephor, Adam being man, Eve the Soul and being born again is the child of the connection of Adam with the Soul and being born again. That is the saviour of our soul both men and women the species of man.

So we do not have to look at that as a martial submission of women to men, but as mankind's submission, the human spirit to the Holy Spirit given of God.

The Bible is a wonder when we look beyond the Material.

Regards Tony
I'm afraid that how you read it is highly creative -- but it is NOT what the words say. How you manage to come up with "Adam being man, Eve the Soul and being born again is the child of the connection of Adam with the Soul and being born again" is simply not there. This is an example of eisegesis -- the opposite of exegesis -- trying to read into a text what you want to be there.
 

Sand Dancer

Crazy Cat Lady
I'm not familiar with their beliefs. Why would they freak out?

Jubilee year is every 50 years, when the land would revert back to the original owners. Sabbatical year is every 7 years when all debts are forgiven. These were to reduce the wealth gap. The religious right don't like people messing with property rights.
 

TransmutingSoul

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm afraid that how you read it is highly creative -- but it is NOT what the words say. How you manage to come up with "Adam being man, Eve the Soul and being born again is the child of the connection of Adam with the Soul and being born again" is simply not there. This is an example of eisegesis -- the opposite of exegesis -- trying to read into a text what you want to be there.

The Baha'i Writings have explained that story.

We are told the Bible is for spiritual guidance and to look for the meaning in the stories,not to see them as only material events.

Extract

".....One must pause awhile to reflect: If the outward meaning of this account were to be attributed to a wise man, all men of wisdom would assuredly deny it, arguing that such a scheme and arrangement could not possibly have proceeded from such a person. The account of Adam and Eve, their eating from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise are therefore symbols and divine mysteries...."

This is the full explanation.

 
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DNB

Christian
Then what's the difference between wordly and sinful in that case? Are they synonimous? Are they similar but of a different scale (like wordly being like sinful but better or worst)?

I'm asking a lot of question because your use of the term is vastly different than the one I am used which is "wordly" as in "of this world" or in reference to the natural world in opposition to the supernatural. A "wordly" problem is thus a problem observable in reality as opposed to a metaphysical problem for example.



Because your "assessment" of homosexual people's character was obviously slanderous, mean spirited, overly sweeping, based on prejudice and deranged. Obviously many homosexuals aren't crass, nor vulgar but extremely polite and cultured and soft spoken. Some are extremely generous and charitable, thus not selfish. Some are prude and reserved and thus not bimboish, etc. Laura Jane Adams, a Nobel peace prize winner, philosopher, social worker, founder of the ACLU and leader of the women's suffrage movement would be one good example of a homosexual person being the exact opposite as would famous poet, philosopher and early environmentalist Vicente Aleixandre (also a Nobel prize winner, but in literature). These are just two examples of homosexual people being far more generous, cultured, charitable, pro-social and enlightened than the common man. Thus there are many more, less illustrious, but still very good, living around today.

Your explanation also seems like a petty excuse of a person of low moral character. Do you know anybody who insult someone else without thinking the insult is apt? It basically gives you "carte blanche" to insult and demean anybody you want on the basis that "you believe you are correct". That basically makes your injunction to never demean, insult or slander others completely moot by creating a giant escape hatch for any behavior. It's even more unsettling coming from a self-described Christian; a religion with a clear as crystal injunction against judging others for none are truly pure and thus all judgement should be directed inward.
Wordly is figurative, it's symbolic of the conventions and paradigms of this world, the same way that Babylon or ancient Rome is a figurative term for decadence and hedonism. I'm speaking to an atheist, one who does not acknowledge the spiritual realm, nor the spiritual dimension in man. Thus, you cannot seem to comprehend how I'm speaking about about the spiritual warfare that takes place in every man between good and evil. The flesh is aroused by sinful vices, where the wisdom of the spirit abhors it. Sorry epronovost, this is an extremely common and prevalent term in theological circles, if you don't get it, you don't get it, ...even though you should. But, like I said, you're not even aware if God exists or not, how will you be able to recognize or appreciate the ramifications of embracing the devil's domain (the world), and God's (heaven)?

Excuse my abruptness epronovost, but it is required that you learn to differentiate between judging wisely with perception and insight, as opposed to self-righteously criticizing in a bigoted or ostracizing manner. It sounds childish when peopled can't seem to appreciate the necessity of, first of all, recognizing subversive and decadent behaviour, and secondly, overtly denouncing it. Pre-judging, when there are no substantial grounds to do so, is an offense to God. Bu discerning between healthy and corrupt lifestyles, subversive and edifying behaviour, wise and prudent actions against reckless and unbridled lasciviousness, brings glory to God and His precepts, and saves those who practice such illicit activities.
In other words, it sounds foolish that you keep playing the 'judging or bigot card, I'm trying to promote healthy and wholesome lifestyles that build character and does cast indignation amongst the participants.

Majority of homosexuals men are flamboyant and effeminate, and the women are or butch or tom-boys, confused and conflicted. Equally shameful and hypocritical are those who are promiscuous, gluttonous, slothful, avaricious and uninhibited. Why is cross-dressing so prevalent in the homosexual community - because they are confused and hypocritical - they claim it's ok for a man to be physically intimate with a man, and yet, they have to dress and act like women in order to do so. Have you never noticed???? I don't care about a few exceptions to the rule, and you have absolutely no idea of their characters (Jane Adams or anyone else). My contention and denunciations lies in the act itself, and what it elicits in people's behaviour. You show me one seemingly sound, decent and productive homosexual, and I'll show you ten who are not.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Wordly is figurative, it's symbolic of the conventions and paradigms of this world, the same way that Babylon or ancient Rome is a figurative term for decadence and hedonism. I'm speaking to an atheist, one who does not acknowledge the spiritual realm, nor the spiritual dimension in man.

You are wrong there. I am an atheist, but I am well versed in philosophy. I do acknowledge and am capable of understanding and discussing ethics and metaphysics with ease. It seems you are holding prejudices against more than homosexuals and are also too quick to judge atheists,

Thus, you cannot seem to comprehend how I'm speaking about about the spiritual warfare that takes place in every man between good and evil. The flesh is aroused by sinful vices, where the wisdom of the spirit abhors it. Sorry epronovost, this is an extremely common and prevalent term in theological circles, if you don't get it, you don't get it, ...even though you should. But, like I said, you're not even aware if God exists or not, how will you be able to recognize or appreciate the ramifications of embracing the devil's domain (the world), and God's (heaven)?

Because, as you yourself put it, "everything God's ordered and stands for is the good of people" thus these are ethical questions and like every humans on Earth, I can understand ethics. I am also versed in anthropology so I can understand religious superstitions and metaphors. The fact that I was raised in a largely Christian society makes those tropes common. I actually think you are using "wordly" incorrectly or without distinction to sinful. I believe you are "word dropping" instead of using proper usage and get frustrated when your strange usage gets called on. Worldly has traditionally two usage either for someone or something sophisticated and cosmopolitan or something that refers to the material world which is not by definition wrong or bad, but mundane and common place. You seem to have conflated "mundane considerations and problems" with "bad" and spiritual challenges as inherently "good". Note that this rejection of "wordlyness" isn't exactly very Christian either, wordly problems and issues are supposed to be a jumping board towards spirituality and virtuousness. Charity and sharing being central to the Christian tradition as elevating people through wordly works to attain a greater understanding of God's sacrifice and mercy.

In other words, it sounds foolish that you keep playing the 'judging or bigot card, I'm trying to promote healthy and wholesome lifestyles that build character and does cast indignation amongst the participants.

You aren't trying to promote anything here at the moment. You aren't in a space where you can promote anything and neither did you. You simply slandered a population. Insulting a group isn't promoting yours. You will not make your behavior and lifestyle look more virtuous by spewing venom at others; especially if that is basically simply a bunch of tired stereotypes and prejudices (and you seem to be enamored with all the most obvious and ridiculous stereotypes on homosexuals and throwing in transvestites and "drag queens" into the lot even though they are a completely different thing"). That's just hate preaching and hate preaching doesn't sound healthy. It also undermine your purported mission of promoting your lifestyle as wholesome. It makes you look hypocritical, judgmental, ignorant, cruel, petty and foolish, if only to believe that insulting someone you don't like equates promoting yourself.
 
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epronovost

Well-Known Member
Maybe these will help?

Galatians 5:19-23

&

1 John 2:16
Christian Standard Bible
For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride in one’s possessions—is not from the Father, but is from the world.

That's not really helpful. These passages simply make the list of sins whose origin is terrestrial as opposed to virtue which comes from God (AKA if you do bad it's your fault; if you do good it's thanks to God). These address specifically sin, not wordly things in general. The origin of sin is man's flesh and physical nature, but that doesn't say anything about nature itself. Yes, there is a certain current in Christianity, since its a death cult after all, to reject the physical world and await the final salvation in death.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
…physical world…

physical world, as in, the planet?

The planet doesn’t have “lusts (desires) of the flesh”….

But anyways, I was just elucidating what DNB probably meant by "transcending the flesh and living by spirit"; you stated “that's not exactly all that clear.”

That’s all.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
physical world, as in, the planet?

The planet doesn’t have “lusts (desires) of the flesh”….

The physical world as in observable reality, the cosmos, nature. The planet doesn't have, needs and desires, but your body does (and your mind too if you are a monist, but Christians are notorious dualist).

But anyways, I was just elucidating what DNB probably meant by "transcending the flesh and living by spirit"; you stated “that's not exactly all that clear.”

That’s all.

As I mentioned before, you largely failed.
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Like 'Love your neighbor' versus everything else in the Bible.

Well if by "high morality" you mean all the advices you agree with and "low morality" all those you don't; of course you can accept one and reject the others. We do that all the time. If by "high morality" you meant something like the Divine Command theory of ethics or the Salvation ethics vs a "low morality" don't X; do Y then the answer would be no.
 

DNB

Christian
You are wrong there. I am an atheist, but I am well versed in philosophy. I do acknowledge and am capable of understanding and discussing ethics and metaphysics with ease. It seems you are holding prejudices against more than homosexuals and are also too quick to judge atheists,



Because, as you yourself put it, "everything God's ordered and stands for is the good of people" thus these are ethical questions and like every humans on Earth, I can understand ethics. I am also versed in anthropology so I can understand religious superstitions and metaphors. The fact that I was raised in a largely Christian society makes those tropes common. I actually think you are using "wordly" incorrectly or without distinction to sinful. I believe you are "word dropping" instead of using proper usage and get frustrated when your strange usage gets called on. Worldly has traditionally two usage either for someone or something sophisticated and cosmopolitan or something that refers to the material world which is not by definition wrong or bad, but mundane and common place. You seem to have conflated "mundane considerations and problems" with "bad" and spiritual challenges as inherently "good". Note that this rejection of "wordlyness" isn't exactly very Christian either, wordly problems and issues are supposed to be a jumping board towards spirituality and virtuousness. Charity and sharing being central to the Christian tradition as elevating people through wordly works to attain a greater understanding of God's sacrifice and mercy.



You aren't trying to promote anything here at the moment. You aren't in a space where you can promote anything and neither did you. You simply slandered a population. Insulting a group isn't promoting yours. You will not make your behavior and lifestyle look more virtuous by spewing venom at others; especially if that is basically simply a bunch of tired stereotypes and prejudices (and you seem to be enamored with all the most obvious and ridiculous stereotypes on homosexuals and throwing in transvestites and "drag queens" into the lot even though they are a completely different thing"). That's just hate preaching and hate preaching doesn't sound healthy. It also undermine your purported mission of promoting your lifestyle as wholesome. It makes you look hypocritical, judgmental, ignorant, cruel, petty and foolish, if only to believe that insulting someone you don't like equates promoting yourself.
Like I said, 'wordly' is a common term within theological circles, therefore, in this context, it is you who does not comprehend the meaning. Possibly you cannot be blamed for not being familiar with such principles or terms, since it is not your area of expertise nor interest.

1 Timothy 4:7
4:7. But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;

1 Timothy 6:20
6:20. O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"--

2 Timothy 2:16
2:16. But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,

Titus 2:12
2:12. instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

Jude 1:19
1:19. These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

Romans 12:2
12:2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

1 Corinthians 2:12
2:12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

1 Corinthians 3:19
3:19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";

Ephesians 2:2
2:2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Ephesians 6:12
6:12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Again, you need to quit playing the bigot card, learn when and why to call a spade a spade, and appreciate the efficacy in doing so. Homosexuals are conflicted and perverted, as are other sexual deviants. Like I said before, every testimony that you give me to support you shallow views, I can find ten former homosexuals or porn-stars who have found peace, edification and salvation through Christ Jesus. For, look what Donald Trump achieved, the presidency, do you want to endorse his tactics or behaviour?

Salvation is for homosexuals and the promiscuous, ...even drug-dealers, kidnappers and murderers, and Christ does love them all and he desires that they repent - but how can they be redeemed when they don't even consider their actions to be sinful, like yourself (as far as the first two deviants are concerned).
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Like I said, 'wordly' is a common term within theological circles, therefore, in this context, it is you who does not comprehend the meaning. Possibly you cannot be blamed for not being familiar with such principles or terms, since it is not your area of expertise nor interest.

1 Timothy 4:7
4:7. But have nothing to do with worldly fables fit only for old women. On the other hand, discipline yourself for the purpose of godliness;

1 Timothy 6:20
6:20. O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"--

2 Timothy 2:16
2:16. But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness,

Titus 2:12
2:12. instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

Jude 1:19
1:19. These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.

Romans 12:2
12:2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

1 Corinthians 2:12
2:12. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

1 Corinthians 3:19
3:19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";

Ephesians 2:2
2:2. in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

Ephesians 6:12
6:12. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Not all of those passage use wordly in the same context and manner. The first three quotes refer to wordly as in "of the this world" or material; in the case of the second passage, it's presented as a euphemism for reasoned argument and a call to fall on dogma alone as to avoid being led astray. The passage of Titus refers to desires and needs of the body; Romans refer to the Roman Empire's hegemon. Corinthians refers to material knowledge as opposed to spiritual message. Ephesian refers again to political power and the social dominance of Rome and other competing philosophies. Worldy takes only a negative connotation when it talks about certain types of influence, mostly desires of the flesh (lust, envy, sloth and gluttony) or when it comes to wordly powers as in opposing governments, philosophy, religions and even, to a certain extend, reason. As you can see, wordly isn't negative unless some specific conditions are there like "wordly desires" or "wordly powers".

Again, you need to quit playing the bigot card, learn when and why to call a spade a spade, and appreciate the efficacy in doing so.

I am following your council. I am calling a spade a spade. You ARE a bigot. You are peddling in prejudices and you are a hate monger.

Here are the conditions to be a bigot.

1) trading in negative stereotypes (which you did)
2) negative generalization (which you did)
3) slanderous insults to attempt to raise your own character (which you did)
4) obstinate and unreasonable attachment to said prejudice in spite of all counter argument (which you did)

These are the trade of a bigot and you did all of them. Thus, you are a bigot. If you don't want to be called a bigot, don't do those things.

Homosexuals are conflicted and perverted, as are other sexual deviants. Like I said before, every testimony that you give me to support you shallow views, I can find ten former homosexuals or porn-stars who have found peace, edification and salvation through Christ Jesus.

And for each of your "saved through Jesus homosexual" I can offer you a plethora of homosexual homophobic preachers; recanted "ex-gays"; studies showing the inefficacy of reparative therapy. I can also show you homosexuals sitting amongst the best and brightest of humanity; studies showing their lower criminality, their equal skills (if not superior) at parenting and their ability to hold jobs at the same rate.
 

DNB

Christian
Not all of those passage use wordly in the same context and manner. The first three quotes refer to wordly as in "of the this world" or material; in the case of the second passage, it's presented as a euphemism for reasoned argument and a call to fall on dogma alone as to avoid being led astray. The passage of Titus refers to desires and needs of the body; Romans refer to the Roman Empire's hegemon. Corinthians refers to material knowledge as opposed to spiritual message. Ephesian refers again to political power and the social dominance of Rome and other competing philosophies. Worldy takes only a negative connotation when it talks about certain types of influence, mostly desires of the flesh (lust, envy, sloth and gluttony) or when it comes to wordly powers as in opposing governments, philosophy, religions and even, to a certain extend, reason. As you can see, wordly isn't negative unless some specific conditions are there like "wordly desires" or "wordly powers".



I am following your council. I am calling a spade a spade. You ARE a bigot. You are peddling in prejudices and you are a hate monger.

Here are the conditions to be a bigot.

1) trading in negative stereotypes (which you did)
2) negative generalization (which you did)
3) slanderous insults to attempt to raise your own character (which you did)
4) obstinate and unreasonable attachment to said prejudice in spite of all counter argument (which you did)

These are the trade of a bigot and you did all of them. Thus, you are a bigot. If you don't want to be called a bigot, don't do those things.



And for each of your "saved through Jesus homosexual" I can offer you a plethora of homosexual homophobic preachers; recanted "ex-gays"; studies showing the inefficacy of reparative therapy. I can also show you homosexuals sitting amongst the best and brightest of humanity; studies showing their lower criminality, their equal skills (if not superior) at parenting and their ability to hold jobs at the same rate.
After all this flippin' time, are we really still discussing what the flippin' heck 'wordly' means????? What are you, pedantic??? Just accept my usage, whether you agree with it or not, and address the point at hand. Don't get semantical about it, move on.

And, by the way, homosexuality is corrupt and perverted, and those who practice it will pay the price in their character and lives (not necessarily directly from God).
With all your anthropological and social studies, did you never come to understand human vice and depravity - what a man practices in the flesh, controls him. Christians strive for self-discipline and transcendence of the flesh and all its desires - I am not talking over your head again, am I?
 
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