I believe that most people are not happy in thier chosen fields of work, that is why it is called work. Even more so in the entertainment and services where a up beat attitude is required. I have talked to those who love being a stripper and exotic dancer. It is like any job, all what you make it. I have talked to more people in conventional jobs who are misreble and unhappy. Who knows??
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Is Erotic Pole Dancing Immoral?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
Mercy Not Sacrifice
Well-Known Member
Sunstone said:
If one or both parties did not consent to it, yes. Otherwise, no.
Well, hmm, are we referring to the act or the dancer herself? Dealing with the latter issue is much more complex, IMO.
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
What exactly would be immoral about dancing for money anyway?
It is entertainment, and both the dancer and the "client" are participating of thier own free-will. We pay for all other forms of entertainment - paying for entrance to a club, tickets to a show, concert or movie, we pay for games, we pay for cable TV, and we pay for the internet. What is so different about giving money to someone who wants to entertain you by taking off thier clothes to music?
It is exploitative, but not in the way most people think. Think about it - these women are doing a very simple thing, taking off thier clothes, and shaking thier respective body parts. And, one person can give hundreds of dollars to watch this for an hour. You could just as well download some videos off the internet for a fraction of the price. But the girls keep shaking and the men keep giving. If you've ever seen some of these girls work, they can get men to pay for lap dances for hours just by being flirty. So, who's really being exploited?
Is it immoral because it encourages infidelity, or an obsession with sex? Well, such behaviors are the responsibility of the person. It's not the stripper's fault that a man cheats on his wife, just like it isn't my teachers fauly that I fail a test if I haven't studied. You have a personal responsibility to control your own behavior.
Is it immoral because it's percieved as lewd? Well, that's a personal opinion and has little to do with ethics and morality.
It is entertainment, and both the dancer and the "client" are participating of thier own free-will. We pay for all other forms of entertainment - paying for entrance to a club, tickets to a show, concert or movie, we pay for games, we pay for cable TV, and we pay for the internet. What is so different about giving money to someone who wants to entertain you by taking off thier clothes to music?
It is exploitative, but not in the way most people think. Think about it - these women are doing a very simple thing, taking off thier clothes, and shaking thier respective body parts. And, one person can give hundreds of dollars to watch this for an hour. You could just as well download some videos off the internet for a fraction of the price. But the girls keep shaking and the men keep giving. If you've ever seen some of these girls work, they can get men to pay for lap dances for hours just by being flirty. So, who's really being exploited?
Is it immoral because it encourages infidelity, or an obsession with sex? Well, such behaviors are the responsibility of the person. It's not the stripper's fault that a man cheats on his wife, just like it isn't my teachers fauly that I fail a test if I haven't studied. You have a personal responsibility to control your own behavior.
Is it immoral because it's percieved as lewd? Well, that's a personal opinion and has little to do with ethics and morality.
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
sandy whitelinger said:
If children are starving in africa, then why don't you cancel your internet subscription and fly there to personally deliver food?
Do you ever spend money on frivolous things? Even just once? If other people are suffering in poverty, isn't it immoral to spend any money on something that may give you comfort and luxury?
Fun and entertainment are a large part of what keeps our brains functioning. Didn't your mother teach you to go out and play?
I am also wondering exactly what mom has to say about why exactly it's immoral. Maybe it's because I was raised by hippies and wild cats, but I never got that speech from my mother.
eudaimonia
Fellowship of Reason
Sunstone said:
I recall a conversation I had with a topless dancer once. She appeared to be a happy and well-adjusted Master's student in engineering. I asked her about herself -- her goals in life, and why she stripped (incidentally, treating her as a whole person, not just an attractive body) -- and she told me that it was about self-confidence for her. It started when she was dared at some party to strip in front of everyone, and she did. She found that she liked that feeling of being confident in herself and her body, and she decided that this was something she could do to make some extra cash to get her education. I saw how she seemed to enjoy herself on the job, smiling and kidding around with a dancer friend of hers, and I could see that she was genuinely happy with what she was doing.
To get to the point, I think that if dancing is a form of self-assertion -- a way of gaining and expressing confidence in oneself -- it can be life-affirming. But this is, of course, a very individual matter, and it may not work this way for all women.
As to my perspective as the viewer, I find nude dancing to be life-affirming in that beauty and art are life-affirming. I will note that it only works this way for me when the dancer appears to be enjoying herself on stage.
eudaimonia,
Mark
eudaimonia
Fellowship of Reason
Hema said:
I would be fine with it as long as she was happy doing that.
eudaimonia,
Mark
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
Hema said:
I'm sure there are plenty of men who think dirty thoughts about fully clothed women they see walking around town. I've met plenty of men who seem to have a talent for undressing women with thier eyes. How would you feel if you knew some clean-cut looking business man you walked by in the mall was thinking about how soft your breasts might be?
Is there a difference between that, and a woman who freely chooses to be naked or nearly naked in front of men in a controlled setting?
eudaimonia
Fellowship of Reason
Hema said:
There probably already are such men. My wife is reasonably good-looking -- I wouldn't be surprised if there are men who have thought dirty thoughts about her. As long as those men do not cross the boundaries of the marriage, I have no real problem with that. Thoughts are thoughts. They may enjoy their thoughts.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Hema
Sweet n Spicy
MaddLlama said:
You think I don't know that? I have to deal with the idiots evey time I walk down the street! There is a difference because I don't choose for men to eye-rape me! The main argument for pole-dancing in this thread so far is that it's the woman's choice and the choice of the men who want to look. Of course everyone has their own choices to make. It's called free will. God gave us all free will. So if a woman is being beaten by her husband and she is in love with him and happy to stay with him, her family and friends should not intervene because it's her choice to stay and she's happy with him?
eudaimonia
Fellowship of Reason
Hema said:
No, why would I "want" that?
But that would be irrelevant. I want my wife to be happy. If stripping for other men made her happy, then I would have no moral qualms about her stripping.
But let's say for the sake of argument that I did feel jealous, which is what you seem to be fishing for. This would only mean that I would be incompatible in marriage with a woman who is happy to strip for other men. My jealousy would not mean that she was doing anything immoral.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Hema
Sweet n Spicy
eudaimonia said:
I wasn't fishing for you to say that you would feel jealous. I was fishing for you to say that since you are husband, you should be the only one who is entitled. That's very generous of you if you wish to share. I know that I for one would not share my body with other men. I love one man and he will be the only one entitled. It's only because I love him and don't want to make a fool of him.
MaddLlama said:
They are both cases where the woman exercises her free will. On one hand, she is physically disadvantaged and on the other hand, she is spiritually disadvantaged. Your main argument is that it's a woman choice.
From a religious perspective, it is seen as promoting lust. If no one else sees it from a religious perspective, I do and I am not afraid to speak about it from a religious perspective. After all, this is www.religiousforums.com.
I accept that many people here are not religious or don't believe in God etc. and everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. You see nothing with it because you are not looking at it from a religious perspective but I see something wrong with it because I'm looking at it from a religious perspective. It doesn't matter if everyone here disagrees with me. I will always remain true to what I believe in.
MaddLlama
Obstructor of justice
Hema said:
Not everybody is monogamous, nor does everyone feel such a sense of entitlement.
The difference is one is concrete, and the other is relative. Getting pushed down the stairs, or punched in the face is a real tangible form of abuse. To say that wanting strangers to give you money to look at your body is "a spiritual disadvantage" is really just an opinion, and certainly isn't a universal moral.
Lots of things promote lust. If a man chooses to go to a strip club to watch women dance, is it the woman's fault that he is thinking "bad thoughts"? If a man is looking in my window while I take a shower, am I forcing him to be lustful? In the end, we all have a personal responsibility to control our own behavior. I don't buy the idea that it's the stripper's fault if a man chooses to cheat on his wife, rather than work out his problems with her.
How do you know I'm not? Just because I am espousing a position that disagrees with yours doesn't mean that my "spiritual path" doesn't support my ideas. Pagans are known to be very open about sex, nudity and sexual choices. Most Pagans I think would agree that stripping is not abuse. And, that's a religious perspective.