Why is that?
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Justifying the belief in hell.
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Why is that?
I mean, doesn't the Abrahamic traditions state we are made in "His" image. We are made with emotions, so shouldn't that be included in His?
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
This type of threat and coercion tactic is commonplace in scams. For example, when someone is trying to sell you an overpriced vacuum cleaner that you don't need, by showing you all the amounts more of dirt it sucks out of your carpet than the vacuum you currently own, then states that you can protect your family from all that dirt, and when you show hesitancy to buy asks "Don't you want to protect your family?"
The implicit threat is that you will be guilty of not protecting your family if you don't buy their vacuum cleaner.
"No one denies hell except the wicked people."
"No one rejects this vacuum cleaner except the people who don't care about protecting their family."
I'm not buying the vacuum... and I am not buying hell. It doesn't matter in what package the Quran's special little threats come. The Quran doesn't "know" whether or not I am wicked. It can't. It is a book. Screw it and the vacuum it rode in on.
I must explain.
In Genesis (the tradition you have cited) Adam and Eve do not have divinity without the knowledge of good and evil. To you this might conceivably be somewhat akin to the story of Odin when he trades his eye in for knowledge. Adam and Eve trade their immortality for knowledge. I don't know what you think of that, but I'm just trying to bridge the idea to you.
They are like the animals before the knowledge. (This adds geeky furor to interest in Genesis' two creation accounts.) Adam and Eve seize divinity by eating the fruit containing the power of knowledge, and only then do they know like gods what is right or wrong. Before they are like animals. After they are like gods. In Genesis animals have emotions but lack knowledge of right and wrong.
Then after this comes the story of Noah explaining why humans must not be murdered, and that is what you have cited. The reason given why humans ought not to be slain is this divine difference between humans and animals, but it is not emotion.
In my opinion the Abrahamic tradition you have cited doesn't on the whole impute emotions to G-d, and the scripture to which you refer is a law in Genesis found in chapter 9. It is the law against killing humans which cites a reason we should not be killed. It says we are in the image of God not God in our image; however the translation limits the proper expression of its meaning. It specifically does not use the term 'L-RD' but only 'El' for God, and 'El' is a term that can mean 'Justice'. The reason against murder can be read literally "..in the image of Justice has God made humans" or "..humans know good from evil and so must not be slain..."
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Now, I do not fear God, obviously. Where do I go?
Do I go to hell because I do not fear Allah (being just the figment of people imagination)? And to Jehovah's Hell (because of the figment of other people's imagination)?
So, how am I supposed to avoid hell, since I cannot possibly believe in Allah and Jehovah, or whatever deity with a hell in her belief system, at the same time?
Ciao
- viole
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Thats Genesis. Not Islamic.
The Quran also shows this. Anyone who takes the study of his Messengers, religion, guidance, and holy books seriously will be guided. It's those really who take it all as a jest and mockery, and are consumed with the Joker card of Iblis to mock God's signs and Messengers that won't be guided.
Really, when such high importance it is for humans to be guided towards justice and unite on truth, what should be the consequence of those who took Messengers and what they warned about all in mockery?
Their mockery to me is a level of evil and a doorway among the doorways to hell.
Really, when such high importance it is for humans to be guided towards justice and unite on truth, what should be the consequence of those who took Messengers and what they warned about all in mockery?
Their mockery to me is a level of evil and a doorway among the doorways to hell.
Where do you go if you remain on disbelief? Well... you can always change.
In Quran, God shows a lot from the viewpoint of disbelievers that Mohammad (s) looks power hungry and they can accuse him and Quranic concepts from their perspective he is false.
What can be seen as Mohammad (s) being power hungry can be seen as a pathway to God since obedience to the means to him is upon God and it's upon God to establish guidance and appoint guides.
What can be seen as threat ways (psychological traps) is God genuinely warning about the consequences of our actions so that we take the study seriously and so to remove the mockery of God's signs disease of Iblis so as to save as many souls as possible.
If he didn't warn about it, we would complain more on the day of judgment and probably have some case in this regard.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Evil people are often evil because they have been neglected, unwanted, despised, abused, unloved, and they are already very tortured people as it is.
A lot of them do not recognize the error of their ways, and they have no ability to help themselves.
When I was a teenager and a young adult, I was a very wicked evil person. Does that mean if I died then at that age, that I deserve to suffer forever??? That's absolutely disgusting!
I went from being very violent and hateful and bitter and angry, to being very loving and compassionate with time and love , from some tender spirit-mothers in Heaven.
Just because somebody dies an evil person tomorrow, does not mean 100 years from now they won't want to change and reform , and become a new person. And with God's help and mercy , they can become a new person, a redeemed soul.
If a wicked evil person truly would never want to change, then they should be put out of their misery comfortably or anesthetized.
To torture somebody for all eternity is completely psychopathic , cruel, and evil. It is thoroughly disgusting!
A lot of them do not recognize the error of their ways, and they have no ability to help themselves.
When I was a teenager and a young adult, I was a very wicked evil person. Does that mean if I died then at that age, that I deserve to suffer forever??? That's absolutely disgusting!
I went from being very violent and hateful and bitter and angry, to being very loving and compassionate with time and love , from some tender spirit-mothers in Heaven.
Just because somebody dies an evil person tomorrow, does not mean 100 years from now they won't want to change and reform , and become a new person. And with God's help and mercy , they can become a new person, a redeemed soul.
If a wicked evil person truly would never want to change, then they should be put out of their misery comfortably or anesthetized.
To torture somebody for all eternity is completely psychopathic , cruel, and evil. It is thoroughly disgusting!
Probably, you are rejecting God's beauty and glory which includes his wrath towards evil people for you vain desires of what he should be.
Colt
Well-Known Member
In the course of the evolution of religion(s) primitive man had no concept of actual death. They assumed that all spirits entered the afterlife. So considering that some people misbehaved badly in this life Hell's were invented as a punishment for evil doers while blissful rewards were assumed for those who were good in this life.
If Infinite God created a hell place of eternal torture for those who misbehaved in this life then God is not "good". In fact, there isn't even a word that would adequately describe how sick and diabolically evil God would be if he tortured his erring children in a hell place.
There is either life or eternal death for those who chose either. In the case of those who reject God and do not want to continue on, the proceedings are so fair and just as to win the approval of the one on trial. They enter the sleep of death and never awake. No pain, no torture, all transcripts erased. Any Good that the non-survivor did returns to God like a drop of water retuning to the ocean.
Defend the character of Allah and stop accusing him of being such a sadistic monster as to tolerate a hell place!
Sooner or later mankind will abandon the fear motive of worship and begin the positive practice of loving God for what he is and desire to be like him.
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
Well... if no one had ever introduced me to the idea of "God" I can assure you I would never have thought of anything like this "God" nor (obviously) assumed it was anything at all... not "power hungry" not "true" nor "false." And I certainly would never think to accuse this thing I know nothing about of anything at all. None of that - for it would make absolutely no sense. I mean, have you ever accused Glerbabberfiffins of being "power hungry?" Would you accuse them of being false? As it stands, I am sure you know nothing about them... so it simply isn't possible. Please just think about that for a second with honesty.
So, if the Quran shows that "disbelievers" do various things... those could only necessarily be disbelievers who someone like you already talked to, and who already shared their ideas of "God" with. But there would be plenty of "disbelievers" who simply don't believe because your concept has just never been put in front of them. This points to the idea that it takes people's ideas for God to become a part of anyone else's life, and that anything the Quran says about disbelievers is actually pretty childish, sophomoric and most definitely myopic or closed-minded.
I posit that the reason it says those sorts of things about disbelievers is not because God has expressed any particular thing about them, but more that the people who wrote the Quran simply did not like their ideas being challenged. The exact same types of reactions can be seen from believers all across the world now! So very many believers just start crying, wailing and moaning about anything that challenges their beliefs. Their beliefs are so very, very fragile that they must pre-emptively seek to stop scrutiny and questioning with statements like "The Bible said their would be non-believers" - as if it is some stain upon your person to be such a thing as a "non-believer", or the Quran saying that a person who denies hell must be wicked. Not many people literally "want" to be wicked - and so when you make a statement like that, you are hoping to dissuade them from being a denier of hell, because they might want to keep you from thinking they are wicked, or accusing them of such. Do you think God honestly just puts the label "wicked" on anyone who denies hell? Does that seem like something an intelligent individual would do? It doesn't seem that way to me. That seems dumb as rocks, to be honest. And hey... what do I know... maybe God is that dumb. Who am I to say either way?
A Vestigial Mote
Well-Known Member
This is just dumb. Sorry... it is. Plain old asinine bull crap on a stupid stick.
No one wants to be wicked, but some people who can't face the consequences of their actions will deceive themselves they are good when there is no proof any of their actions actually have honorable states.