Eat the Rich

Kooky · Sep 27, 2021

Nakosis said:
The idea behind the invisible hand is that you look after your best interest and I look after mine and we both understand that each is doing the same. So we come to an agreement which works for both of our best interests.

This seems to presume that our interests will never be in conflict, because we will never compete over the same scarce resources, both premises that I would have to reject.

If you feel you are not able to see to your own interests, then you might feel the need for the government to step in to look after your best interests for you.

The problem with that is, IMO, there is no guarantee the government doesn't have an agenda, that may not concern itself with your interests.

The trick is to make the government concern itself with my interests, hence the need for collective action.

So me and you, we should be able to find common ground. Me, you and the government, there's no guarantee that either your interests or mine get served and the government gets to enforce its agenda.

There is no guarantee that you and me will ever find common ground. There is, in fact, no guarantee that you will not take everything away from me and turn me into your slave, and you might have in fact a strong incentive to do so, in order to remove pesky competition over scarce resources while simultaneously gaining acces to a valuable new resource in the form of human labor.

Nakosis · Sep 27, 2021

Kooky said:
This seems to presume that our interests will never be in conflict, because we will never compete over the same scarce resources, both premises that I would have to reject.

Can't think of any you and I would actually be in conflict over. Hypothetically maybe but not in actuality. If you own a resource and I have something you want to trade then we can work something out. Otherwise I'll have to find another avenue to get that resource.

The trick is to make the government concern itself with my interests, hence the need for collective action.

Great if you are part of the right collective. Not so great if your not. Might makes right.

There is no guarantee that you and me will ever find common ground. There is, in fact, no guarantee that you will not take everything away from me and turn me into your slave, and you might have in fact a strong incentive to do so, in order to remove pesky competition over scarce resources while simultaneously gaining acces to a valuable new resource in the form of human labor.

Part of this is the need to acknowledge each others right. Of course if you have the collective behind you, there is no need for you to acknowledge someone else's rights.

Kooky · Sep 27, 2021

Nakosis said:
Can't think of any you and I would actually be in conflict over. Hypothetically maybe but not in actuality. If you own a resource and I have something you want to trade then we can work something out. Otherwise I'll have to find another avenue to get that resource.

Sure, you may want to use the same common ground as I do, that used to be fine; but I've acquired a fine new herd of sheep that need grazing, and I don't really see why I should buy my own meadow rather than just fencing in our common ground and declaring it mine. I'll even allow you to work for me on my new meadow, herding my sheep, for a pittance! Isn't that a fair trade?

Yerda · Sep 28, 2021

Nakosis said:
The idea behind the invisible hand is that you look after your best interest and I look after mine and we both understand that each is doing the same. So we come to an agreement which works for both of our best interests.

If you feel you are not able to see to your own interests, then you might feel the need for the government to step in to look after your best interests for you.

The problem with that is, IMO, there is no guarantee the government doesn't have an agenda, that may not concern itself with your interests.

So me and you, we should be able to find common ground. Me, you and the government, there's no guarantee that either your interests or mine get served and the government gets to enforce its agenda.

What if me and you share a common interest in pouring effluents from industrial processes into the river that half a million people depend on for drinking water?

We're going to poison maybe ten thousand people but it's in our interest to do it and pretend we aren't. The invisible hand doesn't guide us all towards an equitable distribution of clean water, it pushes us towards the destruction of a natural resource.

Nakosis · Sep 28, 2021

Jaiket said:
What if me and you share a common interest in pouring effluents from industrial processes into the river that half a million people depend on for drinking water?

We're going to poison maybe ten thousand people but it's in our interest to do it and pretend we aren't. The invisible hand doesn't guide us all towards an equitable distribution of clean water, it pushes us towards the destruction of a natural resource.

Actually it does. There is the ten thousand people other people involved that have a self interest in clean water.
Ten thousand people is a pretty large collective of self-interest you assume two individuals could work against without consequence or repercussion.

Heyo · Sep 28, 2021

Nakosis said:
Ten thousand people is a pretty large collective of self-interest you assume two individuals could work against without consequence or repercussion.

Look at some rivers and think again.

Secret Chief · Sep 28, 2021

Heyo said:
Look at some rivers and think again.

Or watch a film.

Secret Chief · Sep 28, 2021

Nakosis said:
Actually it does. There is the ten thousand people other people involved that have a self interest in clean water.
Ten thousand people is a pretty large collective of self-interest you assume two individuals could work against without consequence or repercussion.

Your naivity is surprising. The human race is polluting the land, the sea and the air. Where is this invisible hand operating?

Nakosis · Sep 28, 2021

Secret Chief said:
Your naivity is surprising. The human race is polluting the land, the sea and the air. Where is this invisible hand operating?

The human race is also trying to fix it, is it not?

Secret Chief · Sep 28, 2021

Nakosis said:
The human race is also trying to fix it, is it not?

Too little, too late imo. Anyhoo, any attempt isn't being driven by capitalism. Capitalism only drives the greed to consume.

Nakosis · Sep 28, 2021

Heyo said:
Look at some rivers and think again.

For which I see two problems.

First, a lack of good education and second, the use of government enforcement to protect the polluters.

Nakosis · Sep 28, 2021

Secret Chief said:
Too little, too late imo. Anyhoo, any attempt isn't being driven by capitalism. Capitalism only drives the greed to consume.

What's it being driven by then?

Secret Chief · Sep 28, 2021

Nakosis said:
What's it being driven by then?

The younger generation.... as per my OP. They're up against it though.

Revoltingest · Sep 28, 2021

Secret Chief said:
Your naivity is surprising. The human race is polluting the land, the sea and the air. Where is this invisible hand operating?

We have lobbied for environmental regulation. Government
responds, albeit imperfectly. And the private sector has also
worked to preserve our environment, eg, the Nature Conservancy.
Of course, I think more should be done, but there's the invisible
tentacle at work.
It's not like command economies are better, eg, Chernobyl.
What's necessary isn't this or that kind of economy, eg,
capitalism, socialism....it's a cultural & governmental drive
to preserve a healthy environment.

Secret Chief · Sep 28, 2021

- Greta Thunberg: 'Build back better, blah, blah, blah'

Revoltingest · Sep 28, 2021

Secret Chief said:
- Greta Thunberg: 'Build back better, blah, blah, blah'

Her 15 shrill minutes aren't up yet, eh.

Kooky · Sep 28, 2021

Nakosis said:
First, a lack of good education and second, the use of government enforcement to protect the polluters.

I agree, we should have long overthrown the capitalist order in protection of our environment.

Heyo · Sep 29, 2021

Nakosis said:
For which I see two problems.

First, a lack of good education and second, the use of government enforcement to protect the polluters.

That is exactly the situation you described in #365. There is the capitalist who calculated that its cheaper to pollute the river and the politician who protects him (for a small contribution to his campaign). These two have easy game against the 10,000 citizens who would like to have clean water but don't know how to get it.

Nakosis · Sep 29, 2021

Heyo said:
That is exactly the situation you described in #365. There is the capitalist who calculated that its cheaper to pollute the river and the politician who protects him (for a small contribution to his campaign). These two have easy game against the 10,000 citizens who would like to have clean water but don't know how to get it.

The problem is the individual and the politician, not capitalism.

Nakosis · Sep 29, 2021

Kooky said:
I agree, we should have long overthrown the capitalist order in protection of our environment.

Why? You don't think the same could happen under socialism or communism? There are unfortunately bad folks in the world that we all have to deal with regardless of the economic system.

Eat the Rich

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