Masculinity

Meow Mix said:

When I was typing to Shakeel about protectors and how I didn't necessarily see it as being unfeminine, I did feel this intuition (not sure if problematic or not) relating to how I could see how someone went about doing that might feel more masculine or feminine. So for instance someone like Black Widow that is very lithe, uses technique rather than brute strength, etc. feels somehow more feminine than a woman that uses brute strength. But I don't see anything prescriptive about that, or that would be shameful, to be less feminine. It would just be a neutral descriptor.

In the same sense that I dress less or more feminine depending on my mood and how I want to be interacted with subtly differently. For instance this avatar near campus, very neutral (despite the pink). If I wear a dress with my hair down though? I know what I'm doing when I do that. One is more feminine, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the "less feminine."

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Pretty much. I actually hate trying to describe masculine or feminine. Clearly there are some biological differences going on, but like with height there is tons of overlaps and outliers into the other's norms.
Really, in the end I think it's just better to describe what makes a good person. The list of masculine things and feminine things are going to overlap a lot anyways.

Shakeel said:

Where did they travel?

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That would depend entirely on the person.
I've worked in a few countries, lived long term in a couple for long periods apart from my native Australia.

Some concepts of masculinity were more consistent that others.

Shakeel said:

Leadership, handsome, looks after those under his care. I was on the fence with "radiates confidence" - but would say it isn't a masculine quality.

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If anything, caring about children and family is a very feminine trait. And even beyond that, care giving professions like nurses, pre and primary school teachers, care of the elderly are dominated by women.

Meow Mix said:

For instance it was once thought that logical, mathematical, spatial, and other types of reasoning were the realm of men, that they are “masculine.” It’s not that people don’t understand that traditionally some cultures have thought this way; it’s that people are disagreeing some things once considered “masculine” are such.

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Was once thought?

Males estimated their general IQ slightly, but mathematic IQ significantly higher than females, who rated their social and emotional intelligence higher than males. Masculine individuals awarded themselves somewhat higher verbal and practical IQ scores than did female participants. (...) There was a significant effect of gender role on hypothetical persons’ intelligence evaluations, with masculine targets receiving significantly higher intelligence estimates compared to feminine targets. More intelligent hypothetical figures were judged as more masculine and less feminine than less intelligent ones. (...) What is interesting is that in nearly every study there are similar, consistent, and significant differences between males and females in self-estimates of overall (general) intelligence, with males giving higher scores to themselves. (...)
Various self-estimated intelligence studies have shown that logical reasoning, as well as mathematical and spatial intelligence is considered a masculine sphere, whereas interpersonal and emotional “intelligence” or skills are more often regarded as feminine domains"

Gender and Gender Role Differences in Self- and Other-Estimates of Multiple Intelligences

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Shakeel said:

Was once thought?

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Okay: is still thought by chunks of the population. So what needs to be done here is to parse what it means.

The point of feminism is to disabuse people of the false notion that women aren't as good at spatial reasoning and mathematical reasoning (and so on) as men: the actual science shows negligible differences. So why should spatial and mathematical reasoning be considered "masculine?" This cultural idea has held women back in STEM for a long time (which is, as you note, an ongoing problem because of these social reasons, not because of ability).

So what does someone mean if they say "these cognitive skills are masculine?" Do they mean that men are better at it, where they're simply wrong?

Or do they mean something more nebulous like, "it so happens that society and history have aligned such that more men have ended up in careers that do this than women?" But isn't that problematic? Women were barred from doing these things by many cultures, women weren't educated from a young age to be able to do these things through much of history, women who did work in STEM were overshadowed by male colleagues taking credit for their work (Rosalind Franklin being the most famous example, but there are more in pretty much every discipline). Women would be discouraged in their high schools, from their families, even in colleges from going into STEM, and why? Because of a false belief (that they couldn't do it) or a totally artificial one (it's a "masculine discipline"?)

Either one of these is problematic. Cognitive skills aren't masculine or feminine, they are human.

So on one hand yes, we can acknowledge that society has beliefs about whether it's masculine or feminine; and we can acknowledge that gendering things is exactly a social construct, which makes it so.

But on the other hand we should combat this foolishness when applied to something as universal as cognition. We can reasonably believe we should change the cultural perception on that.

Yes, do explain it away quickly before the reality starts messing with your internalised feminism.

Meow Mix said:

Because of a false belief (that they couldn't do it) or a totally artificial one (it's a "masculine discipline"?)

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What if it's a correct belief that it will make their life difficult and possibly miserable? Let's face it, whether he or she goes to study this or that, the world will get along just fine.

Meow Mix said:

Cognitive skills aren't masculine or feminine, they are human.

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It's problematic that when I refer to something more specific - like the levels of sexual desires in men and women - you use this general word "cognitive" and say men and women are the same "cognitively" which does nothing to address my point but everything to avoid the question.

Meow Mix said:

But on the other hand we should combat this foolishness when applied to something as universal as cognition. We can reasonably believe we should change the cultural perception on that.

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We can reasonably believe such change isn't desired by the masses.

Shakeel said:

What if it's a correct belief that it will make their life difficult and possibly miserable? Let's face it, whether he or she goes to study this or that, the world will get along just fine.

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The point is that it shouldn't. It is becoming less so: In 1970, women made up 8% of STEM workers in the US; by 2019 that rose to 27% (Women Making Gains in STEM Occupations but Still Underrepresented)

That's thanks to women receiving similar education to men and concerted efforts to de-gender universal traits like scientific, mathematical, spatial, and logical reasoning from the culture. It's working. There's still more to do, but women are taken more seriously in general.

You say "the world will get along just fine," but there are many girls and women that have dreams you're just callously dismissing.

It's problematic that when I refer to something more specific - like the levels of sexual desires in men and women - you use this general word "cognitive" and say men and women are the same "cognitively" which does nothing to address my point but everything to avoid the question.

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Hmm, you made a post about cognitive and spatial reasoning; which I addressed by name before shifting to the much shorter "cognitive" for brevity: I would have thought the context of this substitution would be obvious. If it wasn't, then I apologize: I'll tell you in retrospect that such is what I was doing. Does that help?

As for the levels of sexual desires in men and women, that was another thread that I responded to but is gone now: if you want a response on that we'd likely need to start another thread (or you could head to my The Feminism Thread). I'm trying to keep this thread in relation to the question about what masculinity is. We can discuss anything feminism in the thread I linked though, it's part of why I made it.

We can reasonably believe such change isn't desired by the masses.

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Some 13% of high school girls cite plans for careers in STEM fields (SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals): that's not a small number. The number is rising as young girls and women become more aware that these kinds of career paths are open to them.

I can't find any kind of poll that just asks people "do you support women choosing STEM careers," but I do find this poll where most people (in the US) report belief that men and women have equal capability in science and mathematics: Public Believes Men, Women Have Equal Abilities in Math, Science

(I will note here that the actual scientific data is clear: there are no gendered differences in these abilities. But we are talking about public perception. I just wanted to note that the science is clear on this, though).

Additionally, the poll goes deeper into the people that report they don't think men and women are equal and asks them why: half of the small number that reported doubt argue it is because of the "Way society/ educational system treats boys and girls."

In any case, ultimately, the numbers show this is a fight the feminists are going to win: most people agree there aren't gendered cognitive differences in terms of ability in these areas; even among those that think there are, half of them agree it's because of social differences (which are open to change).

To wrap this back around to OP subject, in summation, some cultural traditions have labelled various cognitive abilities as being masculine abilities; but times are a-changing; and that's a good thing: there are too many beautiful minds in girls out there to waste on such nonsense.

Shakeel said:

What if it's a correct belief that it will make their life difficult and possibly miserable?

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It wasn't true when it came to educating women, so I really doubt it's true here.

Shakeel said:

We can reasonably believe such change isn't desired by the masses.

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Even though she cited evidence saying otherwise.

Shakeel said:

Yes, do explain it away quickly before the reality starts messing with your internalised feminism.

What if it's a correct belief that it will make their life difficult and possibly miserable? Let's face it, whether he or she goes to study this or that, the world will get along just fine.

It's problematic that when I refer to something more specific - like the levels of sexual desires in men and women - you use this general word "cognitive" and say men and women are the same "cognitively" which does nothing to address my point but everything to avoid the question.


We can reasonably believe such change isn't desired by the masses.

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I have not noticed any difference between men and women's sexual desire.

The major difference is control. Many men seem to be taught that they are uncontrollable when faced with a attractive woman, and that she should swoon in the face of his masculine prowess.
The truth is that a majority of men are. Diabolical, inept and selfish lovers,,who are often quite incapable of satisfying their partners.

Masculinity I those terms is completely negative.

Terrywoodenpic said:

The truth is that a majority of men are. Diabolical, inept and selfish lovers,,who are often quite incapable of satisfying their partners.

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As a straight woman, I can tell you that's not true...

But I was never really attracted to the kind that are full of themselves, so perhaps that's where the issue lies.

JustGeorge said:

As a straight woman, I can tell you that's not true...

But I was never really attracted to the kind that are full of themselves, so perhaps that's where the issue lies.

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If you chose your partners wisely, it is not just luck that you find good ones.

Shakeel said:

What if it's a correct belief that it will make their life difficult and possibly miserable? Let's face it, whether he or she goes to study this or that, the world will get along just fine.

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In what way do you believe life is being made difficult for female engineers and female mathematicians?