• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Jehovah Witnesses

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
If you were in a court of law, throwing accusations like you are with nothing to substantiate them, you would be laughed out of court. (Unless of course it was bought off and corrupt, which happens).

On the other hand, if you are in a court of law accused of murder and YOU then claim that you didn't do it...
Would that be enough for a jury to let you go free?

Or would they rather demand evidence other then your saying so, to conclude a not guilty verdict?
 
Last edited:

Brickjectivity

Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
Staff member
Premium Member
Powerful nations have tried to erradicate us and our preaching work....everyone from Hiltler to the USA & Russia.... but they fail to end us because they can't win against God.
I live in the USA and there are JW's here, and the government isn't trying to stop them. They have buildings, meetings, pass literature. The laws here allow people to practice religion. We have many different religious groups here.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I live in the USA and there are JW's here, and the government isn't trying to stop them. They have buildings, meetings, pass literature. The laws here allow people to practice religion. We have many different religious groups here.

The history of Jehovah's Witnesses from its start in the United States was done with persecution from the State usually at the behest of the Church. In it's early years the United States tried banning their preaching work, throwing the prominent members of the group into prison on trumped up false charges, and harassing them.

From a Wikipedia article on the Supreme Court cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses:

"In the United States, numerous cases involving Jehovah's Witnesses are now landmark decisions of First Amendment law. In all, Jehovah's Witnesses brought 23 separate First Amendment actions before the U.S. Supreme Court between 1938 and 1946.[citation needed] Supreme Court Justice Harlan Fiske Stone once quipped, "I think the Jehovah's Witnesses ought to have an endowment in view of the aid which they give in solving the legal problems of civil liberties."[29]"

That there was collusion between the Church and State to try and ban, and even put to death members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, that went so far as to change the Espionage Act targeting the group to try and ban their work and get them thrown into prison (and the clergy hoped putting them to death if possible) in the United States:

"During this period of nationalistic fervor, a conference of clergymen was held in Philadelphia, in the United States, at which a resolution was adopted calling for revision of the Espionage Act so that alleged violators could be tried by court-martial and subjected to the death penalty. John Lord O’Brian, special assistant to the attorney general for war work, was selected to present the matter to the Senate. The president of the United States did not permit that bill to become law. But Major-General James Franklin Bell, of the U.S. Army, in the heat of anger divulged to J. F. Rutherford and W. E. Van Amburgh what had occurred at the conference and the intent to use that bill against the officers of the Watch Tower Society.

Official U.S. government files show that at least from February 21, 1918, onward, John Lord O’Brian was personally involved in efforts to build a case against the Bible Students. The Congressional Record of April 24 and May 4 contains memos from John Lord O’Brian in which he argued strongly that if the law allowed for utterance of “what is true, with good motives, and for justifiable ends,” as stated in the so-called France Amendment to the Espionage Act and as had been endorsed by the U.S. Senate, he could not successfully prosecute the Bible Students.

In Worcester, Massachusetts, “Rev.” B. F. Wyland further exploited the war fever by asserting that the Bible Students were carrying on propaganda for the enemy. He published an article in the Daily Telegram in which he declared: “One of your patriotic duties that confronts you as citizens is the suppression of the International Bible Students Association, with headquarters in Brooklyn. They have, under the guise of religion, been carrying on German propaganda in Worcester by selling their book, ‘The Finished Mystery.’” He bluntly told the authorities it was their duty to arrest the Bible Students and prevent them from holding further meetings.

The spring and summer of 1918 witnessed widespread persecution of the Bible Students, both in North America and in Europe. Among the instigators were clergymen of Baptist, Methodist, Episcopal, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, and other churches. Bible literature was seized by officers without a search warrant, and many of the Bible Students were thrown into jail. Others were chased by mobs, beaten, whipped, tarred and feathered, or had their ribs broken or their heads cut. Some were permanently maimed. Christian men and women were held in jail without charge or without trial. Over one hundred specific instances of such outrageous treatment were reported in The Golden Age of September 29, 1920." - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101993040


That the clergy of Christendom was behind the court instigated actions against Jehovah's Witnesses:


"Was all of this really instigated by the clergy? John Lord O’Brian denied it. But the facts were well-known by those who lived at that time. On March 22, 1919, Appeal to Reason, a newspaper published at Girard, Kansas, protested: “Followers of Pastor Russell, Pursued by Malice of ‘Orthodox’ Clergy, Were Convicted and Jailed Without Bail, Though They Made Every Effort That Was Possible to Comply with the Provisions of Espionage Law. . . . We declare that, regardless of whether or not the Espionage Act was technically constitutional or ethically justifiable, these followers of Pastor Russell were wrongfully convicted under its provisions. An open-minded study of the evidence will speedily convince any one that these men not only had no intention of violating the law, but that they did not violate it.”

Years later, in the book Preachers Present Arms, Dr. Ray Abrams observed: “It is significant that so many clergymen took an aggressive part in trying to get rid of the Russellites [as the Bible Students were derogatorily labeled]. Long-lived religious quarrels and hatreds, which did not receive any consideration in the courts in time of peace, now found their way into the courtroom under the spell of war-time hysteria.” He also stated: “An analysis of the whole case leads to the conclusion that the churches and the clergy were originally behind the movement to stamp out the Russellites.”—Pp. 183-5."



There is so much information that it would take me a very long time to go into details. The link above though is a good start.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
On the other hand, if you are in a court of law accused of murder and YOU then claim that you didn't do it...
Would that be enough for a jury to let you go free?

Or would they rather demand evidence other then your saying so, to conclude a not guilty verdict?

A person is not considered guilty until they prove their innocence. It is the other way around. In fact by constitutional law a person does not need testify in a trail against themselves. Just as it was in the days of Jesus, when that illegal Sanhedrin trial that convened in the night to condemn him tried to illegally get him to testify against himself. It is the court's obligation to prove the guilt. Not the defendants obligation to prove their innocence.

Even so, what Jesus said holds:

"The Son of man did come eating and drinking, but people say, ‘Look! A man who is a glutton and is given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”-Matthew 11:19.

A person's works prove who they are. Just as Jesus' works proved he was the son of God come down from heaven and had God's approval. So today the good works of Jehovah's people prove they have God's spirit among themselves. They are united in love worldwide. Have done away with war, racism, crime, divisions. And Jesus said this was the identifying mark of his true followers:

"By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves."-John 13:35.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
A person is not considered guilty until they prove their innocence. It is the other way around. In fact by constitutional law a person does not need testify in a trail against themselves. Just as it was in the days of Jesus, when that illegal Sanhedrin trial that convened in the night to condemn him tried to illegally get him to testify against himself. It is the court's obligation to prove the guilt. Not the defendants obligation to prove their innocence.

I didn't say otherwise.

The very fact that it went to court with you being accused of murder, implies that there is a case against you with evidence.

If your defense amounts to nothing more or less then "i didn't do it", that will not be enough. You are going to need to address the evidence presented by the prosecution. The defense is going to have to argue / show how the evidence is invalid, incorrect, incomplete, not trustworthy, whatevs.



Even so, what Jesus said holds:

"The Son of man did come eating and drinking, but people say, ‘Look! A man who is a glutton and is given to drinking wine, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ All the same, wisdom is proved righteous by its works.”-Matthew 11:19.

A person's works prove who they are. Just as Jesus' works proved he was the son of God come down from heaven and had God's approval. So today the good works of Jehovah's people prove they have God's spirit among themselves. They are united in love worldwide. Have done away with war, racism, crime, divisions. And Jesus said this was the identifying mark of his true followers:

"By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have love among yourselves."-John 13:35.

You are in serious denial of all the harm JW's are causing to their own people.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I didn't say otherwise.

The very fact that it went to court with you being accused of murder, implies that there is a case against you with evidence.

If your defense amounts to nothing more or less then "i didn't do it", that will not be enough. You are going to need to address the evidence presented by the prosecution. The defense is going to have to argue / show how the evidence is invalid, incorrect, incomplete, not trustworthy, whatevs.





You are in serious denial of all the harm JW's are causing to their own people.

Perhaps you would say the same about Jesus. Yet what he said still holds true that “wisdom is proved righteous by its fruits.”

If you haven’t, get to know them. Go to the Kingdom Hall, right now Zoom meetings. See what they say, how they live their lives. Read their publications for yourself. Then you will come to see that perhaps you have been deceived.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
For the record I provided a bounty of evidence above. So your very question to begin with was loaded and dishonest, insinuating none had been provided. Now what does it mean when one resorts to dishonesty to try and prove a point, or when they ignore the bountiful evidence to the contrary?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Perhaps you would say the same about Jesus.

I don't know what you are referring to.

If you haven’t, get to know them. Go to the Kingdom Hall, right now Zoom meetings. See what they say, how they live their lives. Read their publications for yourself. Then you will come to see that perhaps you have been deceived.

I do know them. I had kids of JW's as classmates for years. Most unhappy children I have ever met. I did read their publications.

They cause extreme harm to many. Anti-vaxxers, anti loads of medical treatments, anti-science,...

They pretend to be loving and good but in reality they severely oppress their own, keep them ignorant, deny them 21st century medical care and fill their heads with extremely damaging propaganda.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
I don't know what you are referring to.



I do know them. I had kids of JW's as classmates for years. Most unhappy children I have ever met. I did read their publications.

They cause extreme harm to many. Anti-vaxxers, anti loads of medical treatments, anti-science,...

They pretend to be loving and good but in reality they severely oppress their own, keep them ignorant, deny them 21st century medical care and fill their heads with extremely damaging propaganda.

I would like to take the time to share with others exactly what I am talking about.

See here this person is calling Jehovah's Witnesses "anti-vaxxers". This is a out an out lie. Please don't censor me for saying this. Last person spewing lies and I called him on it I was censored for it.

From JW.ORG:

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-immunization/

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Opposed to Vaccination?

No. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not opposed to vaccination. We view vaccination as a personal decision for each Christian to make. Many of Jehovah’s Witnesses choose to get vaccinated.


Next statement by this person: "deny them 21st century medical care."

Quote from JW.ORG:

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-immunization/

"We seek quality medical care and appreciate the many advancements of medical science to reduce the risk of serious illness. We are grateful for the commitment and dedication of health-care professionals, especially in times of crises.

Jehovah’s Witnesses cooperate with public health officials. For example, since the COVID-19 pandemic broke out, Jehovah’s Witnesses have continued to publish reminders in hundreds of languages on this website, encouraging adherence to local safety guidelines. These include the importance of physical distancing and of following regulations on public gatherings, quarantining, hand washing, and the wearing of face coverings as well as other practical measures...

  • We seek medical treatment because we place a high value on life.—Acts 17:28.

    “Witnesses avail themselves of the various medical skills to assist them with their health problems. They love life and want to do whatever is reasonable and Scriptural to prolong it.”—The Watchtower, July 1, 1975.

    “Jehovah’s Witnesses gladly accept medicine and medical treatment. They want to maintain good health and to prolong life. In fact, like the first-century Christian Luke, some of Jehovah’s Witnesses are physicians. . . . Jehovah’s Witnesses certainly appreciate the hard work and dedication of those who provide medical care. They are also grateful for the welcome relief from illness that those individuals provide.”—The Watchtower, February 1, 2011."
Like I asked previously, if you resort to deceitful lies to try and prove a point what does that tell about yourself? If you were to go into a court of law with these false accusations, which have no backing in reality, you would again, be laughed out by any sane and rational judge.

In fact in a recent update giving by the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses they said that 80% of all Bethel family members around the world have already been vaccinated:

https://www.jw.org/en/news/jw/region/global/2021-Governing-Body-Update-7/

See the video starting at timestamp 2:15.


I would also encourage the reader to watch the falling video starting at 46:14 and determine for yourself what type of people Jehovah's Witnesses are as a whole around the world and whether they are a happy people or not!:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/StudioMonthlyPrograms/pub-jwb-082_1_VIDEO

I can say for a certainty there are no other people as joyful and happy as Jehovah's servants.
 
Last edited:

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
For the record I provided a bounty of evidence above. So your very question to begin with was loaded and dishonest, insinuating none had been provided. Now what does it mean when one resorts to dishonesty to try and prove a point, or when they ignore the bountiful evidence to the contrary?
I don't think you understand the concept of evidence. Anecdotes are incredibly weak evidence and the Bible is the claim. It is not the evidence. You would first have to prove the Bible to be reliable to do that and no JW ever has.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I would like to take the time to share with others exactly what I am talking about.

See here this person is calling Jehovah's Witnesses "anti-vaxxers". This is a out an out lie. Please don't censor me for saying this. Last person spewing lies and I called him on it I was censored for it.

From JW.ORG:

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-immunization/

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses Opposed to Vaccination?

No. Jehovah’s Witnesses are not opposed to vaccination. We view vaccination as a personal decision for each Christian to make. Many of Jehovah’s Witnesses choose to get vaccinated.


Next statement by this person: "deny them 21st century medical care."

Quote from JW.ORG:

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jw-vaccines-immunization/

"We seek quality medical care and appreciate the many advancements of medical science to reduce the risk of serious illness. We are grateful for the commitment and dedication of health-care professionals, especially in times of crises.

Jehovah’s Witnesses cooperate with public health officials. For example, since the COVID-19 pandemic broke out, Jehovah’s Witnesses have continued to publish reminders in hundreds of languages on this website, encouraging adherence to local safety guidelines. These include the importance of physical distancing and of following regulations on public gatherings, quarantining, hand washing, and the wearing of face coverings as well as other practical measures...

  • We seek medical treatment because we place a high value on life.—Acts 17:28.

    “Witnesses avail themselves of the various medical skills to assist them with their health problems. They love life and want to do whatever is reasonable and Scriptural to prolong it.”—The Watchtower, July 1, 1975.

    “Jehovah’s Witnesses gladly accept medicine and medical treatment. They want to maintain good health and to prolong life. In fact, like the first-century Christian Luke, some of Jehovah’s Witnesses are physicians. . . . Jehovah’s Witnesses certainly appreciate the hard work and dedication of those who provide medical care. They are also grateful for the welcome relief from illness that those individuals provide.”—The Watchtower, February 1, 2011."
Like I asked previously, if you resort to deceitful lies to try and prove a point what does that tell about yourself? If you were to go into a court of law with these false accusations, which have no backing in reality, you would again, be laughed out by any sane and rational judge.

In fact in a recent update giving by the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses they said that 80% of all Bethel family members around the world have already been vaccinated:

https://www.jw.org/en/news/jw/region/global/2021-Governing-Body-Update-7/

See the video starting at timestamp 2:15.


I would also encourage the reader to watch the falling video starting at 46:14 and determine for yourself what type of people Jehovah's Witnesses are as a whole around the world and whether they are a happy people or not!:

https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#en/mediaitems/StudioMonthlyPrograms/pub-jwb-082_1_VIDEO

I can say for a certainty there are no other people as joyful and happy as Jehovah's servants.


Many of them are anti-vaxxers which is a direct result of the JWs propaganda machine against science and loads of medical treatments.
Note that I did not state that anti-vax was an "official position" of the leadership.

And if you are going to deny that JWs have a tradition of refusing medical treatments (not all), then I'm just going to laugh in your face.

Here's just one example Jehovah's Witness Kid Dies After Refusing Medical Treatment : NPR

When you consistently spread anti-science propaganda, then those who swallow that up will end up being very skeptical about all of science. Even the science against which there is no explicit propaganda or where the official position even is that it is okay.

The societal and psychological issues go much further then merely the "official position" of the leadership, but it flows directly from it.

When you, for example, constantly bash evolutionary biology and the scientists working in those fields, then that will translate into being opposed to biologists and by extension biology. And when such people then find out that there is a hard link between medical science and biology, that severely lowers the bar to also being opposed to medical science, which then will translate into (irrational) skepticism concerning doctors, medical specialists, treatments, etc.

The problem here is not specifically the opposition to evolution, or any other specific thing.
The problem is the underlying message, the underlying reasoning. It promotes magical thinking and discourages rational inquiry.
It breeds ignorance and irrationality.


When they get convinced that evolutionary biology is conspiratory mumbo jumbo and they later find out that for example Germ Theory of desease was developed according to the exact same standards and methods as evolution theory..... what do you think will happen in those people's minds?


That's what I'm talking about. The psychological impact and ramifications of polluting people's minds with pure psychological poison.
 

Eyes to See

Well-Known Member
Ok. So you are given proof, in fact in the United States Branch, the Jehovah's Witnesses are 99% vacinated, and you say "many of them are anti-vaxxers."

The evidence isn't enough for you. You just continue to lie like sewage running through a well watered machine.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Ok. So you are given proof, in fact in the United States Branch, the Jehovah's Witnesses are 99% vacinated, and you say "many of them are anti-vaxxers."

The US is not the only country in the world.
Although that is indeed remarkable. It doesn't reflect my experience with them over here in Belgium at all.

It doesn't take away from the main theme of my last post though.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
Answering in the capacity of what I know of JWs having a long term association with the group:

JW believe the 144k will become a ruling class with Jesus at the head that preside over Earth. In JW belief the apocalyptic events in Revelation will destroy life as we know it, but humans (who were faithful) and animals will be resurrected to bring Earth back into line with a global garden of Eden style paradise. Basically heaven on Earth.
So while it's considered a great honor to be part of the 144k, it's not the thing most JW are looking forward to.

I believe when they got big enough they had to invent something to explain it.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
The Watchtower takes the passage in Revelation 7 completely out of context and twists it to refer to their organization’s supposed ruling class in heaven. The passage is very specific though in reference to literal members of the tribes of Israel- 12,000 from each tribe listed. As well, the 144,000 are clearly on earth during the Tribulation period when they are sealed for special service for God.

I suppose the sealing on the forehead tells how they are selected.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Ok. So you are given proof, in fact in the United States Branch, the Jehovah's Witnesses are 99% vacinated, and you say "many of them are anti-vaxxers."

The evidence isn't enough for you. You just continue to lie like sewage running through a well watered machine.
Claims are not "proof". The Jehovah's Witnesses may claim to be 99% vaccinated, but that needs a but stronger evidence than just the say so of the leadership.
 

cataway

Well-Known Member
I believe since they are not JW's it is a bit of a moot point but for those Jews who are chosen Jesus is the one who selects.
why would jesus ask one of todays jew's to be of the 144,000 ?? they dont believe he is the christ , and they would not even know they are being asked
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
On the other hand, if you are in a court of law accused of murder and YOU then claim that you didn't do it...
Would that be enough for a jury to let you go free?

Or would they rather demand evidence other then your saying so, to conclude a not guilty verdict?
Actually the obligation is on the prosecution to prove that you are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The default, the assumption, is that you are innocent until proven guilty.
 

Bree

Active Member
I live in the USA and there are JW's here, and the government isn't trying to stop them. They have buildings, meetings, pass literature. The laws here allow people to practice religion. We have many different religious groups here.

it was a different story in the early 1900's. Our organisation was banned in the USA. Our governing body members were all jailed at one time.
I is good now because we fought for our right to worship and practice our form of christianity and we won that right. Bur right now in many parts of the world, our work is still banned and our brothers and sisters are languishing in jails for their faith. Of course we are not the only religion that has bans on it...there are many other minority religions who do too.
 
Top