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Where Did This Belief Come From?

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
.
You ask... Do I have to be a Catholic to have life in me? The ONLY place you can receive Jesus is in a Catholic Church; a Priest at the alter makes the change of ordinary bread into the LIVING flesh of Jesus!
Actually the RCC accepts the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

And when it comes to baptism, they accept all Christian baptisms in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit. (An exception to that rule is Mormon baptism, since Mormons do not share a trinitarian concept of God). Protestants baptised under this formula are considered brothers in Christ. Now their churches are not considered true churches by the RCC. But that's another topic. The point is that their baptism is considered just as legitimate as that of a Catholic, making them true Christians. If you need me to, I'll look up the quote from the catechism on this.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Actually the RCC accepts the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

And when it comes to baptism, they accept all Christian baptisms in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit. (An exception to that rule is Mormon baptism, since Mormons do not share a trinitarian concept of God). Protestants baptised under this formula are considered brothers in Christ. Now their churches are not considered true churches by the RCC. But that's another topic. The point is that their baptism is considered just as legitimate as that of a Catholic, making them true Christians. If you need me to, I'll look up the quote from the catechism on this.
Are you sure you're in Judaism? ;) Good response above.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Yes, the Bible implies that it is the Word of God only that determines righteousness and orthodoxy. This goes without saying - if the Bible is divinely inspired in some sense or another, then it is the bastion of truth. So that, when one attempts to establish doctrine and dogma, they extract their positions from the Bible, and when in controversy, one is obligated to reference their proof-text with book, chapter and verse.

This is elementary reasoning, it is not incumbent for this mandate to be explicitly stated in the Bible itself, it just follows the practical process of establishing truth. First, examine and define your source as authoritative, and then reference your source in order to substantiate your position. This is not a theological issue, even scientists or atheists, in order to prove whatever point that they are trying to make, will cite an authorized source. Just like a footnote or bibliography when used to support a view.

I think that first, you created a straw-man argument claiming that this was some tenet in and of itself. And two, that this was some practice exclusive to Bible students.
Again, it's just the most prudent, objective and effective way to determine orthodoxy, especially considering the sublime and esoteric nature of the matter at hand - interpretation will invariably be so controversial. Verses must be cited in order to qualify one's stance on an issue.

The "church", by means of Athanasius, in 367 AD, produced your presently most common NT canon. Neither the "church", or Athanasius are holy, despite what the church may claim. To understand what is in the NT, the best description would be found in Matthew 13, whereas the NT would be the field where the tare seed (message of the evil one/devil), and the message of the son of man are found planted together (Matthew 13:37-38), and will remain together, until "the end of the harvest" (Matthew 13:30), the end of the age (Matthew 13:39), such as the day of the Lord. The message of the devil is best described as the message of "lawlessness"/"wickedness" (Matthew 13:41 & 49), which is best shown in the message of the false prophet Paul and his false gospel of Grace. One must separate the chaff from the wheat, which will happen at the end of the age by use of the furnace of fire (great tribulation), implemented by the "angels" (Matthew 13:39-40).
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Actually the RCC accepts the sacraments of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

And when it comes to baptism, they accept all Christian baptisms in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit. (An exception to that rule is Mormon baptism, since Mormons do not share a trinitarian concept of God). Protestants baptised under this formula are considered brothers in Christ. Now their churches are not considered true churches by the RCC. But that's another topic. The point is that their baptism is considered just as legitimate as that of a Catholic, making them true Christians. If you need me to, I'll look up the quote from the catechism on this.

IndigoChild5559 Good point... In 1054 they broke from the Catholic Church they also receive Jesus in Communion; their Priests have the Authority to make the sacred change happen at the alter! Proving Christians have always eaten the flesh of Jesus in the form of bread! The Orthodox do NOT accept the sacraments of the Catholic Church! They reject the authority of the Pope having their own little popes (in substitute)!
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The "church", by means of Athanasius, in 367 AD, produced your presently most common NT canon. Neither the "church", or Athanasius are holy, despite what the church may claim. To understand what is in the NT, the best description would be found in Matthew 13, whereas the NT would be the field where the tare seed (message of the evil one/devil), and the message of the son of man are found planted together (Matthew 13:37-38), and will remain together, until "the end of the harvest" (Matthew 13:30), the end of the age (Matthew 13:39), such as the day of the Lord. The message of the devil is best described as the message of "lawlessness"/"wickedness" (Matthew 13:41 & 49), which is best shown in the message of the false prophet Paul and his false gospel of Grace. One must separate the chaff from the wheat, which will happen at the end of the age by use of the furnace of fire (great tribulation), implemented by the "angels" (Matthew 13:39-40).

If the gospel of grace is false what is the true gospel?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
If the gospel of grace is false what is the true gospel?

Yeshua preached the "kingdom", of the here and now, and the kingdom to come. The kingdom of the here and now is the power and spirit of God, used in the forgiveness of sin, which is the healing of the sick. The kingdom to come, such as "thy kingdom come", is the kingdom whereas David rules over the nations (Zechariah 14:9-14) & (Ezekiel 34:23-24) after all the nations who come to destroy Jerusalem will be destroyed as per Zechariah 14. David will rule over the combined tribes of Judah and Ephraim, in the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37:24-28). The kingdom come will follow when the nations are judged (Joel 2:29-3:2), and Jacob chastened (Jeremiah 30:11). The gospel of grace/cross, is the gospel of lawlessness, whereas the Law is nailed to the cross. The "Word of God", the embodiment of the Law and the prophets, will rule the nations per Revelation 19:13-15. The followers of the false prophets are on the path to destruction (Matthew 7:13-23).
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
If the gospel of grace is false what is the true gospel?
Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. If you fall down, go to those whom you have hurt and meake it right, and then approach God for forgiveness -- he is merciful to all who repent.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. If you fall down, go to those whom you have hurt and meake it right, and then approach God for forgiveness -- he is merciful to all who repent.

To love God is to love your neighbor as yourself, which is the summation of the Law, which is encapsulated in the Commandments. The gospel of grace/cross, is whereas the Law is nailed to the cross, and you follow your own black heart as to what is right or wrong. Looking at current US law rulings, the US is looking at a great judgment, for deeming the killing of children as an act of "love" and compassion. One best start looking for a rock to hide under. As for repent, one repents of sin, and the definition of sin is the transgression of the law. Love for a pedophile is called child abuse. And the "gospel", presented by Yeshua, was to keep the commandments, and if you "fall", you are to confess, repent, be baptized, and produce good fruit, or be cast into the fire (Matthew 3:10). That is the gospel taught by Yeshua. If you are baptized in the Spirit, one sins no more. If one continues to sin, they are not baptized in the Spirit, and are of the devil (1 John 3:8-10). There are many false prophets, and many gospels, but they are not the one taught by Yeshua.
 

DNB

Christian
The "church", by means of Athanasius, in 367 AD, produced your presently most common NT canon. Neither the "church", or Athanasius are holy, despite what the church may claim. To understand what is in the NT, the best description would be found in Matthew 13, whereas the NT would be the field where the tare seed (message of the evil one/devil), and the message of the son of man are found planted together (Matthew 13:37-38), and will remain together, until "the end of the harvest" (Matthew 13:30), the end of the age (Matthew 13:39), such as the day of the Lord. The message of the devil is best described as the message of "lawlessness"/"wickedness" (Matthew 13:41 & 49), which is best shown in the message of the false prophet Paul and his false gospel of Grace. One must separate the chaff from the wheat, which will happen at the end of the age by use of the furnace of fire (great tribulation), implemented by the "angels" (Matthew 13:39-40).
Athanasius produced nothing. His Easter festal letter was used, amongst other sources, to understand what texts some of the earliest Church members considered to be inspired or authoritative. Christ's Church is holy as far as redemption is concerned, but for Athanasius, who knows - i personally believe that he was an egregious heretic.

Anyhow, I have absolutely no idea what point that you're trying to make as far as the OP is concerned?
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Athanasius produced nothing. His Easter festal letter was used, amongst other sources, to understand what texts some of the earliest Church members considered to be inspired or authoritative. Christ's Church is holy as far as redemption is concerned, but for Athanasius, who knows - i personally believe that he was an egregious heretic.

Anyhow, I have absolutely no idea what point that you're trying to make as far as the OP is concerned?

"Redemption" from what? You are going to die, despite what your false prophet Paul might have said (Jeremiah 31:30), and you will still have to continue in your suffering, and have to visit your doctor regularly. As for Athanasius, and your "Church is holy", yeah sure. Athanasius was declared a saint by your "holy" church, so either they are not holy, and made a mistake, which they did, for Athanasius was a foremost promoter of the false dogma of the Trinity, or they were correct in their own minds, and he is not an egregious heretic. I am of the opinion that he was a political animal of the lowest instincts, shown by his conduct with respect to Arius.
St. Athanasius - Saints & Angels - Catholic Online
As for another "Christian" canon scholar of the time, Eusebius, he compiled a bible for Constantine, of which there is no surviving copy, but with respect to a reference, a chapter in his compilation bible, is not within the canon of Athanasius. Eusebius would be considered an "earliest church member", who was a canon scholar, who is considered by some to be holy unreliable, the same reliability I give to your other non specified authorities, along with their non understandings (Matthew 11:25) In reference his own writings, Eusebius noted that truth was not his imperative, but the good of the church was his aim. Eusebius - Wikipedia Of course, his church, a harlot daughter of Babylon, will only survive for a time, times, and half a time (Daniel 7), and it's leader, the supposed holder of the key of David, the pope, the heir of Peter, will "fall", and all those hanging on to him, "in that day", will be "cut off" (Isaiah 22:22-25). Just saying.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Hello Brian2 I hope all is well...
I have never heard of this "Gospel of Grace"!? Who wrote it? It is NOT in any Bible I have read!

Acts 20:24 But I make my life neither dear nor any account to myself, so as to finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus: to testify fully the gospel of the grace of God.
Romans 3:24
And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Ephesians 1:6
To the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
John 3:16-17
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Romans 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

There are many places in the New Testament where the gospel of grace is taught even if the expression is seen less often.
God has shown grace to us by being kind to us because He loves us, He sent Jesus to die for us while we were sinners because He loves us.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Yeshua preached the "kingdom", of the here and now, and the kingdom to come. The kingdom of the here and now is the power and spirit of God, used in the forgiveness of sin, which is the healing of the sick. The kingdom to come, such as "thy kingdom come", is the kingdom whereas David rules over the nations (Zechariah 14:9-14) & (Ezekiel 34:23-24) after all the nations who come to destroy Jerusalem will be destroyed as per Zechariah 14. David will rule over the combined tribes of Judah and Ephraim, in the land given to Jacob (Ezekiel 37:24-28). The kingdom come will follow when the nations are judged (Joel 2:29-3:2), and Jacob chastened (Jeremiah 30:11). The gospel of grace/cross, is the gospel of lawlessness, whereas the Law is nailed to the cross. The "Word of God", the embodiment of the Law and the prophets, will rule the nations per Revelation 19:13-15. The followers of the false prophets are on the path to destruction (Matthew 7:13-23).

David in Ezek 34:23,24 is the Messiah.
What do you mean when you say that the gospel of grace/cross, is the gospel of lawlessness?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Love God. Love your neighbor as yourself. If you fall down, go to those whom you have hurt and meake it right, and then approach God for forgiveness -- he is merciful to all who repent.

That sounds good to me.
That sounds like at least part of the way there to the gospel of grace which God has given through Jesus.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Acts 20:24 But I make my life neither dear nor any account to myself, so as to finish my course and the ministry that I received from the Lord Jesus: to testify fully the gospel of the grace of God.
Romans 3:24
And are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
Romans 11:6

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
Ephesians 1:6
To the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
John 3:16-17
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Romans 5:8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

There are many places in the New Testament where the gospel of grace is taught even if the expression is seen less often.
God has shown grace to us by being kind to us because He loves us, He sent Jesus to die for us while we were sinners because He loves us.

Brian2 Okay I understand.....
I was thinking of a book in the bible with the title "Gospel of Grace"!
I was saved by GRACE through Faith working out my salvation with fear and trembling. We can do nothing to merit the grace, justification comes by faith. a work of grace that God performs in our hearts through faith.

Brian2 To be saved we need to be ADDED to the risen Body of Jesus! Acts 2.... 3000 were ADDED to the body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost!
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
David in Ezek 34:23,24 is the Messiah.
What do you mean when you say that the gospel of grace/cross, is the gospel of lawlessness?
David in Ezek 34:23,24 is the Messiah.
What do you mean when you say that the gospel of grace/cross, is the gospel of lawlessness?

The false prophet Paul's gospel of the cross/grace wipes out the Law, which would set up lawlessness. As one of the 3 shepherds taken to "pasture" the "flock doomed for slaughter"/Gentile church (Zechariah 11:10), called, "Favor", because of his false gospel of grace, which means found in the favor of God. Zechariah 11;10 also points out that the "shepherd" Favor would "break" my "covenant" with the people, which would be the covenant given to Abraham, which means "father of the people", whose given covenant was the covenant of circumcision. The other two "shepherds" were Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13), and the "worthless shepherd", Peter (Zechariah 11:17), who would not feed, tend or care for the sheep (Zechariah 11:16). You are supposedly no longer under the Law, but under grace/lawlessness. This was Romanized by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", Constantine, and his Roman church, which will last for a time, times, and half a time, and who was to attempt to change the law and the times (Daniel 7:25). I reckon time, times, and half a time is coming to an end, at which time the angels will come to cast the lawless tares into the furnace of fire (great tribulation), at the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:39-42).

Colossians 2:16
New King James Version
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
Brian2 Okay I understand.....
I was thinking of a book in the bible with the title "Gospel of Grace"!
I was saved by GRACE through Faith working out my salvation with fear and trembling. We can do nothing to merit the grace, justification comes by faith. a work of grace that God performs in our hearts through faith.

Brian2 To be saved we need to be ADDED to the risen Body of Jesus! Acts 2.... 3000 were ADDED to the body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost!

Do you think I am not saved and not part of the Body of Christ and not a Christian?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Constantine, and his Roman church, which will last for a time, times, and half a time, and who was to attempt to change the law and the times (Daniel 7:25). I reckon time, times, and half a time is coming to an end, at which time the angels will come to cast the lawless tares into the furnace of fire (great tribulation), at the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:39-42).
That is total nonsensical interpretation as Revelation deals with the assault on the Church that you condemn, so you've done the Roman Empire's bidding. And at the same time you quote from the canon of the Bible that that exact same Church chose in the 4th century.

Inconsistent, much?
 

Brian2

Veteran Member
The false prophet Paul's gospel of the cross/grace wipes out the Law, which would set up lawlessness. As one of the 3 shepherds taken to "pasture" the "flock doomed for slaughter"/Gentile church (Zechariah 11:10), called, "Favor", because of his false gospel of grace, which means found in the favor of God. Zechariah 11;10 also points out that the "shepherd" Favor would "break" my "covenant" with the people, which would be the covenant given to Abraham, which means "father of the people", whose given covenant was the covenant of circumcision. The other two "shepherds" were Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13), and the "worthless shepherd", Peter (Zechariah 11:17), who would not feed, tend or care for the sheep (Zechariah 11:16). You are supposedly no longer under the Law, but under grace/lawlessness. This was Romanized by the "beast with two horns like a lamb", Constantine, and his Roman church, which will last for a time, times, and half a time, and who was to attempt to change the law and the times (Daniel 7:25). I reckon time, times, and half a time is coming to an end, at which time the angels will come to cast the lawless tares into the furnace of fire (great tribulation), at the "end of the age" (Matthew 13:39-42).

Colossians 2:16
New King James Version
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

The written law is replaced with the law of love and the Holy Spirit who guides and teaches us.
The Law of Moses is taken out of the way as a means of salvation. The Law is something that we cannot fulfil to the letter but we can fulfil the requirements of the law through loving God and our neighbour.
The feast of Pentecost is when the Law was given to Moses and 3000 lives were lost on that day. The Pentecost after Jesus rose was when 3000 people were saved and when the Holy Spirit was given.

It seems strange to base your beliefs on a prophecy which seems easily misunderstood.
Have you read commentaries on the Zechariah prophecy and alternative meanings.
Personally I see that Jesus said that it is in the true Church that the tares will remain until the end when the angels would be sent to gather them out and burn them. It would be great if the Church was perfect but it is not perfect and there are false Christians in the Church and it is up to Jesus to be the judge of that.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Do you think I am not saved and not part of the Body of Christ and not a Christian?
Hello Brian2 I hope all is well...
You ask: "Am I saved"?
First.. Are you baptized? Baptism ADDS you to God' ONLY son! If you want to call God father if you want to be IN God' family you MUST be ADDED or IMMERSED into the body of Jesus!

LOOK...Acts 2:40 With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.” 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

Brian2 3000 were ADDED to the body of Jesus the first day of Pentecost! Jesus cannot die a second time.. He (BTDT) has Been There and Done That! Being IN Jesus' Body means you also will live forever in heaven! It means God is your father.... You can be ADDED/IMMERSED into the risen body of Jesus without being a Catholic! You have to be Baptized in the Trinitarian Formula "Father Son & Holy Spirit" Many Christian Churches do baptize in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit! IF....

Brian2 if you have already been baptized then you are half 1/2 way there! You MUST remain IN Jesus to enter the Kingdom!
 
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