Trailblazer
Veteran Member
So maybe you also remember why I refused to agree.
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Prophets, Legitimacy etc.
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Yes, good, but there is also "ye shall know them by their fruits".
My religion is Sanātana Dharma, better known as Hinduism. While Abrahamic religions have prophets, Hinduism has gurūs or spiritual teachers, as @JustGeorge mentioned, as well as ṛṣis (usually written as rishis in English). I am not quite sure what the ṛṣis mentioned in our scriptures were, so I will have to do some research.
When it comes to evidence for the legitimacy of Hinduism, my view is that my inner spiritual experiences tell me that Hinduism is legitimate. One experience that did it for me had to do with the sound Oṃ. A lot of our scriptures, probably starting with the Upaniṣads, mention that the syllable Oṃ is the Self or Ātman who pervades the worlds and is their source. When I was in my early 20s, there was a time when I used to meditate on that syllable by mentally intoning it as I breathed in and out. One night, as I did my meditation, the very sound Oṃ 'turned into' consciousness that was boundless in its presence and utterly tranquil. The experience lasted for about two seconds, and it showed me that this Hindu teaching is true: there is an omnipresent Self who is consciousness. Funnily, I later dismissed that experience and joined an Abrahamic religion. Today, I realize that I need to control my skeptical attitude so that I don't so easily dismiss my spiritual experiences and run off to some other religion.
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Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Well, it seems like you didn't want to actually stand behind your claims.
Trailblazer: "Here's a bunch of criteria that a person needs to meet in order to be considered a messenger from God."
Tiberius: "Hey, I've heard of this guy who meets those criteria. Would you consider him to be a messenger from God?"
Trailblazer: "Um.... no."
But at the time of Moshe would you have followed him? How would you have known he was given the true religion and not some other group?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
They were people just like us, but learned of their time and wise. Some engaged in teaching, others engaged in contemplation, some helping and advising kings in their daily affairs (Family priests - Kula Guru, Like Sage Vasishtha was to Lord Rama's family). The king bowed to the Kula-guru, and sat on the throne only after the Kula-guru had taken his seat. Kula-guru was the most respected person in a king's court, more than even the king.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Talking of legitimacy - what is the legitimacy of Bahaollah himself (other than the belief of Bahais)? Rebottled Seventh Century Islamic stuff with Allah, prophets and prophecies, with some success by Bahaollah, and with greater success by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyyas.
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For the sake that it is a debate and for the sake of that person who wants to better understand the concept of prophecy I will add some support for my comments.
Don't believe what people tell you about prophets. Its ignorance, generally speaking. Sorry, but it just is. From childhood onward untruths and ignorance are all around us. We awake as if from sweet dreams into a creepy, dangerously rotten house with sticky floors, perhaps making it out of the door before it all collapses.
Preachers and their followers will claim that all of the answers are in the canon, but beginning only with the protestant canon there is no definition of 'Prophecy'. instead there are questions. Are prophets dreamers? Are they miracle workers? Are they humans who command the powers of both God and nature? Do they serve the L-RD, command the L-RD? They act somewhat like wizards in modern tales, don't they? A corpse once falls onto the bones of a prophet, and the man is resurrected! Some prophets split water. Some don't. Some we are told are elevated. Some we are told are great. There is a "School of prophets." We are told everything about prophets except what a prophet is and what a prophet is for.
Prophet this, prophet that; but we never are told what they are -- not in the canon. We are only told some things they do. This is why its so handy to limit children to reading the canon, because then you can define things for those children. You can rope them in and make them stay like children. The material is self referential when you leave out key information. I think and protest that people are kept ignorant when told from childhood or from their first inklings of Christianity that the canon has all of the answers. No. It has all of the questions. They are important questions but not answers.
There is general ignorance about prophets which I will demonstrate. There are three prophets who have miracles involving the traversal of water. Why? No one ever talks about this except the really nerdy bible students. Try finding a discussing of it here or on *any* religious forum anywhere prior to today, September 20, 2021. No one even keeps count. In fact I may have counted wrong, but most people visiting this site won't be able to either correct me or assure me. They will have to look it up or search for the information. People have given up on asking questions. Their questions while growing up have been deflected. They have stopped asking having been frustrated repeatedly by expecting the answers where they were not.
So what is a prophet? For centuries lay people have wondered if Nostradamus, psychic, was a prophet. That shows, demonstrates, guarantees that there has been widespread ignorance of Jewish prophets. If we can't even tell the difference between Nostradamus and a prophet then we have fallen far in our knowledge of prophets. If we think they are prove-ers who prove the accuracy of scripture. Then Nostradamus is legit, because he proves things. If we think they are miracle workers then every miracle worker may redefine morality as they see fit! If miracles are prophecy then we are ****ed, and I say that knowing full well it is crude. The absurdity requires the worst possible crude expression to help manage the pain of it. Did not Elijah once make a dirty joke?
My comment to the person who starts reading this thread not knowing what prophets are in the Christian scriptures: Every prophecy is about moral issues. Always.
Every miracle acts like a parable which illustrates some point or another. Nobody else gets a miracle! Nobody else, no matter how much they need it or cry or beg. The words of the prophet are the miracle that everyone else gets. The moral lesson is the gift from God, to be cherished in the face of loss, death and suffering. Nobody else's child is resurrected. Nobody else's cat is pulled out of a tree. Only one person is punished by being turned to salt, and the rest are ignored. One city is destroyed or one country or a fig tree. All is not set aright. One thing is. The point is made, and the miracles stop. If two miracles seems similar pay attention. There is a reason why, and you are supposed to find out why. If a bird loses a feather miraculously there is a reason, and you're supposed to ask what that reason is. Find the reason, or miss the lesson of the miracle. Incorporate that lesson and you receive the reward which is the prophet's true miracle, the wisdom they have obtained and shared at great personal cost.
Morals are the miracle, not the physical miracles people crave. The Greeks claimed to have oracles that could speak of the future, but the prophets of Judaism could find truths in God. This was their super power, and they despised the feeble guidance of the oracles preferring rather to learn eternal principles.
Don't believe what people tell you about prophets. Its ignorance, generally speaking. Sorry, but it just is. From childhood onward untruths and ignorance are all around us. We awake as if from sweet dreams into a creepy, dangerously rotten house with sticky floors, perhaps making it out of the door before it all collapses.
Preachers and their followers will claim that all of the answers are in the canon, but beginning only with the protestant canon there is no definition of 'Prophecy'. instead there are questions. Are prophets dreamers? Are they miracle workers? Are they humans who command the powers of both God and nature? Do they serve the L-RD, command the L-RD? They act somewhat like wizards in modern tales, don't they? A corpse once falls onto the bones of a prophet, and the man is resurrected! Some prophets split water. Some don't. Some we are told are elevated. Some we are told are great. There is a "School of prophets." We are told everything about prophets except what a prophet is and what a prophet is for.
Prophet this, prophet that; but we never are told what they are -- not in the canon. We are only told some things they do. This is why its so handy to limit children to reading the canon, because then you can define things for those children. You can rope them in and make them stay like children. The material is self referential when you leave out key information. I think and protest that people are kept ignorant when told from childhood or from their first inklings of Christianity that the canon has all of the answers. No. It has all of the questions. They are important questions but not answers.
There is general ignorance about prophets which I will demonstrate. There are three prophets who have miracles involving the traversal of water. Why? No one ever talks about this except the really nerdy bible students. Try finding a discussing of it here or on *any* religious forum anywhere prior to today, September 20, 2021. No one even keeps count. In fact I may have counted wrong, but most people visiting this site won't be able to either correct me or assure me. They will have to look it up or search for the information. People have given up on asking questions. Their questions while growing up have been deflected. They have stopped asking having been frustrated repeatedly by expecting the answers where they were not.
So what is a prophet? For centuries lay people have wondered if Nostradamus, psychic, was a prophet. That shows, demonstrates, guarantees that there has been widespread ignorance of Jewish prophets. If we can't even tell the difference between Nostradamus and a prophet then we have fallen far in our knowledge of prophets. If we think they are prove-ers who prove the accuracy of scripture. Then Nostradamus is legit, because he proves things. If we think they are miracle workers then every miracle worker may redefine morality as they see fit! If miracles are prophecy then we are ****ed, and I say that knowing full well it is crude. The absurdity requires the worst possible crude expression to help manage the pain of it. Did not Elijah once make a dirty joke?
My comment to the person who starts reading this thread not knowing what prophets are in the Christian scriptures: Every prophecy is about moral issues. Always.
Every miracle acts like a parable which illustrates some point or another. Nobody else gets a miracle! Nobody else, no matter how much they need it or cry or beg. The words of the prophet are the miracle that everyone else gets. The moral lesson is the gift from God, to be cherished in the face of loss, death and suffering. Nobody else's child is resurrected. Nobody else's cat is pulled out of a tree. Only one person is punished by being turned to salt, and the rest are ignored. One city is destroyed or one country or a fig tree. All is not set aright. One thing is. The point is made, and the miracles stop. If two miracles seems similar pay attention. There is a reason why, and you are supposed to find out why. If a bird loses a feather miraculously there is a reason, and you're supposed to ask what that reason is. Find the reason, or miss the lesson of the miracle. Incorporate that lesson and you receive the reward which is the prophet's true miracle, the wisdom they have obtained and shared at great personal cost.
Morals are the miracle, not the physical miracles people crave. The Greeks claimed to have oracles that could speak of the future, but the prophets of Judaism could find truths in God. This was their super power, and they despised the feeble guidance of the oracles preferring rather to learn eternal principles.
firedragon
Veteran Member
If you find anything about "Rishi's" in Hindu scripture, please be kind enough to share it. Thats a request if you have time. Thank you so much.
If your religion has prophets or a prophet, messengers etc., how do you determine that he is or was a prophet? What are the criteria?
If you religion hasn't any such messengers, what proves its legitimacy to you? That is, why this faith instead of another faith? What makes it more true to you than another one that you choose to follow it?
Revelation is a chapter of the new testament bible (the bible used by Christians). Some say that Revelation is the prophecy of St. John the Divine. Revelation is a warning by God not to attack Iraq (which is what Presidents George Herbert Walker Bush and his son, President George W. Bush both did). Ironically, they both did so with the advice and consent of Reverend Billy Graham (who stayed over at the White House while visiting), and with consent of the Religious Right that had voted in both Bush presidents and Reagan. Without their help, none of the Religious Right presidents would have been elected.
So, both Bush presidents defied God by attacking Iraq. But, W. Bush felt that it was an emergency because the al Qaeda (Osama bin Laden), attacked America (911 attack, World Trade Center destroyed and Pentagon hit). Of course, we know now that Iraq was merely a part of the middle east and the whole middle east was not responsible for the 911 attack. In fact, Iraq had nothing to do with terrorism. God commanded that we not attack Iraq, but human logic made us defy God in order to defend ourselves. As a result, many innocent lives were lost including women and children who were not combatants. We should have had faith in God that He (God) would protect us from our enemies, and we should not defy God by launching an attack. "Thou shalt not kill," "turn the other cheek," etc.
Revelation (a chapter of the bible) says that Iraq "was" attacked (recently....though the prediction is many hundreds of years old, before the attack).
Revelation says that a coalition of many nations will be formed in mere hours. Such a prediction must have sounded like utter nonsense over a thousand years ago, before the advent of telephones. Yet, this is exactly what happened in recent times.
Revelation 17:18 says that Iraq has been attacked by the Whore of Babylon, which is defined by the bible as the most powerful nation in the world...richest and most powerful....the United States (obviously). Revelation says that the Whore of Babylon is known for its sins (sexual misconduct, flaunting wealth...especially pearl necklaces, like the simple pearl necklace that Barbara Bush was so proud of). But, the reason that the United States was called the Whore of Babylon in the bible was that it conquered Iraq and corrupted it by putting in pro-American leaders. As we have seen after the withdrawal of troops, anti-American forces took over.
Of course, the rest of the predictions of Revelation occurred exactly as they did in the actual war in Iraq (tanks shooting fire into the sky, etc.....all ridiculous from the experiences of ancient man, but only possible in modern times).
So, God gave visions of the future to St. John so he could write Revelation.
But, as an extra warning (knowing that mankind would not understand Revelation, and knowing that mankind would be reacting to the 911 attack, rather than listening to God), God gave visions of the future to modern psychics. All of them were highly psychic before becoming modern psychics of God. They were given visions of President George W. Bush ordering war in Iraq, and knowledge that it was defying God's wishes.
Since visions of modern psychics was exactly the same as Revelation, and that it all came to pass exactly as the bible predicted, we know that the modern psychics were not wrong. So, God was literally shouting to humans not to attack Iraq (he had made Revelation (a chapter of the bible) hundreds of years ago, and made modern psychics of God). But, inundated with news of the 911 attack, and the news flooded with news of W. Bush's attack on Iraq, no one heeded God's modern psychics. Most thought that they were nuts.
God made his modern psychics understand that they must not brag about their status with God. It wasn't about the power of humans....it was about the power and visions of God. God demanded that He (God) be worshiped, and modern psychics must not be worshiped (to share power is to diminish worship).
Many modern psychics of God wondered if perhaps they were crazy. But, when they got together on the internet, they played with other psychics of God and found that they were not alone in their visions and beliefs. They played games with their new powers (which God approved). Some of the modern psychics of God visited each other by astral projection...seeing each other's houses. God wanted these psychics to understand that they were not crazy, but that their visions were real and true. Thus, God gave them visions of things that were not related to the war in Iraq. For example, God gave one of them a vision of the crash of the space shuttle over Texas, and that it was a heat shield tile that fell off that caused the disaster. As prediction after prediction proved psychic powers to the modern psychics of God, they came to realize that they really were predicting modern events. Some of the modern psychics of God were skeptics, originally, but were absolutely convinced that ESP was real....it had to be because events were happening exactly as their visions predicted.
Many modern Christians don't understand or believe Revelation (a chapter in the bible). In fact, they pick and choose what they do and do not believe in the bible. They think that some parts of the bible are nonsense (like Jonah in the whale). So, why are the psychic visions written so cryptically? That is because the brain is wired to receive sense (sight, sound, feeling). It is not wired to receive psychic signals. So, the brain processes psychic signals symbolically. Thus, Revelation discusses visions of 7 stars representing 7 churches. This is because the psychic could not process the psychic information about 7 churches. You'd think that the brain would interpret them as churches, rather than stars....but that is not how the information came in. So, each psychic must gain an understanding of what his visions mean, and learn to decipher the meanings.
Professor of statistics, Dr. Jessica Utts (currently at the University of California, Irvine), proved that ESP is real. Please google her, and understand that you need facts in order to assert your belief that ESP is false.
Missed my emphasis! Thanks though. I don't mention ESP or at least don't intend to pin any of my support on its existence or nonexistence. I only say that Jewish prophets seem interested in eternal moral wisdom not in oracles. The L-RD's claim to fame is to state something and then make it happen, not that it can be predicted. The L-RD rather than making predictions, creates...at least according to some quotes from a prophet or two...which I would need to look up. It is what I think based on some verses I have read. The oracles of the Greeks predict things with ESP or something similar real or fake it matters not. They don't claim to create the future or cause things.
Which reminds me. This could be where we Christians got that phrase "Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No." as well as the sayings "Don't be double minded" and "Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with all of your might." or it might not. Its just a thought. Thanks for your post.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The same way that I know that Baha'u'llah was given the true religion, by looking at His Person, what He was doing on His Mission, and whatever He said, given what was written in the Torah had not been recorded yet.
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I was told that a Guru was the person who took you from the darkness into the light.
I suppose that could be interpreted in different ways.
If your religion has prophets or a prophet, messengers etc., how do you determine that he is or was a prophet? What are the criteria?
If you religion hasn't any such messengers, what proves its legitimacy to you? That is, why this faith instead of another faith? What makes it more true to you than another one that you choose to follow it?
In Christianity I was told who were the legitimate Prophets, by the Bible and religious leadership.
I ran into a number of self proclaimed Prophets. I think they really believe this. I didn't really by it.
Eventually I got around to asking if I had any better reason to accept the Abrahamic prophets.
I guess if I wanted to accept the biblical prophets I could have found a biblical argument for it.
It is not too hard to use the Bible to support what I was told to believe. If I can't there's plenty of websites that will do it for me.
idea
Question Everything
I think we all have to get ourselves into that light - no one leading us - we have to lead ourselves into the light. No leaning on any arms of flesh as others would say.
Self-reliance is a happy thing. Great examples out there, but perhaps, if there is a God, no prophets or gurus or trustworthy leaders actually exist because the final point of it all is for each one of us, individually, has to learn how to stand on our own two feet.
Everyone is a prophet for themselves.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I guess you forgot why I would not agree. I wanted to know what the name of the guy and you would not tell me.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
What would you like to find about Hindu Rishis? Perhaps I can be of some help.
firedragon
Veteran Member
What would you like to find about Hindu Rishis? Perhaps I can be of some help.
Not about Hindu Rishi's. The gentleman said he is going to look for what the scripture says about Rishi's so I was just asking him to tell me also what his findings were. So its "what the scripture says about Rishi's", not what you know about Rishi's.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Oh yes. The 'tablets' and the archives of the House of Justice. As time goes by more will crop up.