Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 20, 2021

Tiberius said:
What in the world are you going on about?

The elephant that the blind people are touching and perceiving. It exists as something separate to the blind guys, right? It's a simple yes or no question.

The simple act of touching makes a nueral connection, same with all the senses.

I mean after all, trees in a forests are connected and communicate which each other. Imagine the vision if we were to see all those electrical Impulses, that would radically alter our perception of a tree and a forest.

Regards Tony

samtonga43 · Sep 20, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I already explained that so In am not going around that block again.

To explain something means to make it clear. You did not do this, so I'm not surprised that, as usual, you are "not going around that block again".

Trailblazer said:
Just because there are countless ways for people of any faith to claim that they know what passages ACTUALLY mean that does not mean that there is not one faith that knows what they actually mean.

Just to add; that does not mean that Bahai is the faith that knows what they actually mean.

Trailblazer said:
Baha'u'llah unsealed the book as it says in Daniel 12

No, Daniel 12 does not say that The B.Man unsealed the book. You have pushed your bias into the Daniel text.

samtonga43 · Sep 20, 2021

Trailblazer said:
That does not change the fact that I am just a believer in the claims and believers have no burden of proof.
In other words, I have no burden to prove what I KNOW is the truth because I did not make the claim that it is true.

Nonsense. You continually make the claim that you KNOW it is the truth. Don't you have a burden to prove that either..
1. You know it is the truth.
2. Because you know it is true -- it is true.

TransmutingSoul · Sep 20, 2021

samtonga43 said:
No, Daniel 12 does not say that The B.Man unsealed the book. You have pushed your bias into the Daniel text.

Actually history supports this view considerably. There is a tradition that knowledge is of 27 letters and up until the Message of the Bab in1844, only 2 letters had been released. The Message of the Bab released that knowledge to all humanity.

Now look at a graph, there are many available.

That really does support what was offerd in the Bible also at the end of ages, that knowledge will increase. This is a very logical and rational proof.

Another amazing event, considering that the Bible offers that the Message will be like lightening East to West, is that on the Day after the Declaration of the Bab in Persia, in America the first lightning was sent across the Telegraph Wires and the Message sent was chosen from the Bible, and was "What has God Wrought".

There is so so much more

Regards Tony

Trailblazer · Sep 20, 2021

samtonga43 said:
To explain something means to make it clear. You did not do this, so I'm not surprised that, as usual, you are "not going around that block again".

I explained it numerous times. I am not responsible for another person's lack of understanding.
But you probably never even looked at what I explained, so you are as usual taking pot shots at me.

samtonga43 said:
Just to add; that does not mean that Bahai is the faith that knows what they actually mean.

You are free to believe whatever you want regarding what we know. That is the beauty of free will.

samtonga43 said:
No, Daniel 12 does not say that The B.Man unsealed the book. You have pushed your bias into the Daniel text.

Of course Daniel does not say that. One has to use their God-given intelligence to research the scriptures and then add two and two and get four.

I have no bias, I just have a belief regarding what the chapter is referring to. Christians might know it is referring to the time of the end but that is ALL they know. Like most prophesies, it's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess its nature beforehand.

Trailblazer · Sep 20, 2021

samtonga43 said:
1. You know it is the truth.
2. Because you know it is true -- it is true.

It is not true because I KNOW it is true. I never said that so that is a straw man.

scarecrow-straw-man-guarding-rice-fields-picture-id818034404

samtonga43 · Sep 20, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I explained it numerous times. I am not responsible for another person's lack of understanding. But you probably never even looked at what I explained, so you are as usual taking pot shots at me.

Oh, I certainly did look. I looked several times, and your explanation did not explain what you thought it explained.
Pot shots?

This is a discussion, Tb.
Disagreeing with you ≠ taking pot shots at you.

Trailblazer said:
You are free to believe whatever you want regarding what we know.

I am? Really?? Free to believe? WOW!! I would never have guessed.

Trailblazer said:
Tb said: Of course Daniel does not say that the B.Man unsealed the book.

Tb said: Baha'u'llah unsealed the book as it says in Daniel 12
So which Tb are we to believe?

Trailblazer said:
Like most prophesies, it's easy to look back when you know what you're looking for to tell that it was fulfilled, but impossible to guess its nature beforehand.

(See my emphasis): It certainly is, and you are an expert.

samtonga43 · Sep 20, 2021

Trailblazer said:
It is not true because I KNOW it is true.

What??

samtonga43 · Sep 20, 2021

TransmutingSoul said:
Actually history supports this view considerably. There is a tradition that knowledge is of 27 letters and up until the Message of the Bab in1844, only 2 letters had been released. The Message of the Bab released that knowledge to all humanity.

Now look at a graph, there are many available.

View attachment 55424
That really does support what was offerd in the Bible also at the end of ages, that knowledge will increase. This is a very logical and rational proof.

Another amazing event, considering that the Bible offers that the Message will be like lightening East to West, is that on the Day after the Declaration of the Bab in Persia, in America the first lightning was sent across the Telegraph Wires and the Message sent was chosen from the Bible, and was "What has God Wrought".

There is so so much more

Regards Tony

Well, of course knowledge will increase as time moves on. Always has, always will; nothing new here.
And Christian teachings provide all we need to know to deal with whatever comes. The Bahai faith offers nothing extra.

Trailblazer · Sep 20, 2021

samtonga43 said:
The Bahai faith offers nothing extra.

Only in your dreams, but your dreams are not going to make the Baha'i Faith go away because it is here to stay.

Nothing extra?

Over 20,000 unique works by Baha'u'llah have been identified at the Baha'i World Centre, comprising just under seven million words. The Baha'i Faith is a scriptural religion; the current written texts are considered fully authoritative.Sep 23, 2019
Themes: Sacred texts, The Baha’i Faith
Article written by: Moojan Momen

Baha'i sacred texts - The British Library

TransmutingSoul · Sep 20, 2021

samtonga43 said:
Well, of course knowledge will increase as time moves on. Always has, always will; nothing new here.
And Christian teachings provide all we need to know to deal with whatever comes. The Bahai faith offers nothing extra.

That reply needs this response.

As many have offered, evidence can be provided, but people will always have their head in the sand, even when it is as plain as day.

Regards Tony

Trailblazer · Sep 20, 2021

Tiberius said:
Given that we are discussing the Baha'i faith and the Bible comes into that, I still don't see how you figured you were "backed into a corner."

The Bible does not have to come into a discussion of the Baha’i Faith. It comes into the discussion only because it is brought into the discussion.

I never said that you backed me into a corner. It is not you who backed me into a corner; it is @CG Didymus, who insists upon talking about the Bible.

Tiberius said:
Lots of Christians have claimed that God told them what certain passages mean. Who are you to claim they are wrong? They have verified their faith in the same way you have verified yours.

I am going to say that I don’t believe they are right because I do not believe that God speaks directly to anyone. God does not even speak directly to the Messengers; God speaks to them through the Holy Spirit.

No, they have not verified their faith in the same way I have verified my faith since all people verify their faith differently.

Tiberius said:
Very true. Let's agree that if someone claims that God has told them the truth, then that is a meaningless claim and should not be considered in how valid someone's claims are, shall we?

I fully agree.

Tiberius said:
Oh, here we go. No surprises here, the other religions have it wrong, but you Baha'i folks got the secret decoder ring to figure out the TRUTH®™.

That’s right, and the secret decoder ring is the NEW Messenger of God who came to do the decoding of the Bible, just as Daniel prophesied.

Trailblazer · Sep 20, 2021

Tiberius said:
Irrelevant. The texts are still unfalsifiable and the claims made by the people living today are unfalsifiable as well.

I never said they are not unfalsifiable. They are unfalsifiable.

Tiberius said:
But whenever claim could be interpreted in a way that makes it falsifiable, you say that interpretation is wrong and that the correct interpretation is an unfalsifiable one.

So what?

Tiberius said:
Well, that's just not true. Even if God answers prayers only sometimes, we should see a difference between prayers to God and prayers to the toaster.

Prayers to the toaster, after all, are ALWAYS going to be the same as random chance. Buy God is not random chance. God does answer at least some prayers, you say. That means that prayers to God will be some amount BETTER than random chance. So we should see SOME kind of difference.

The only possible explanation for prayers to God and prayers to the toaster being the same is if they are both as effective as each other. Thus, prayers to God are no better than random chance (unless you want to admit that toasters answer prayers).

There is some kind of difference. Believers will testify that God answers some prayers although they could never prove it.

Tiberius · Sep 20, 2021

TransmutingSoul said:
I see nothing is a simple yes or no.

Regards Tony

Is there any point in trying to have a discussion about this with you if you are going to intentionally muddy the waters?

Tiberius · Sep 20, 2021

TransmutingSoul said:
The simple act of touching makes a nueral connection, same with all the senses.

I mean after all, trees in a forests are connected and communicate which each other. Imagine the vision if we were to see all those electrical Impulses, that would radically alter our perception of a tree and a forest.

Regards Tony

This has nothing to do with what I asked.

Does the elephant the blind people are touching exist outside the minds of the blind people?

Tiberius · Sep 20, 2021

Trailblazer said:
The Bible does not have to come into a discussion of the Baha’i Faith. It comes into the discussion only because it is brought into the discussion.

I never said that you backed me into a corner. It is not you who backed me into a corner; it is @CG Didymus, who insists upon talking about the Bible.

You've used the Bible many times to support the Baha'i position.

I am going to say that I don’t believe they are right because I do not believe that God speaks directly to anyone. God does not even speak directly to the Messengers; God speaks to them through the Holy Spirit.

So then, Mr B wasn't a messenger from God. He was a messenger of God's proxy.

No, they have not verified their faith in the same way I have verified my faith since all people verify their faith differently.

How so? Why is their method of reading something, feeling in their minds that it is true, and then counting that as "verification" of their beliefs any less valid than your method of reading something, feeling in your mind that it is true, and then counting that as "verification" of your beliefs?

I fully agree.

And shall we also agree on this: If something is based on an interpretation of some old text, and that text can be interpreted in more than one way, we should conclude that one particular interpretation is correct just because there was an event that can fit that interpretation?

That’s right, and the secret decoder ring is the NEW Messenger of God who came to do the decoding of the Bible, just as Daniel prophesied.

What a surprise. A person of a particular faith says that their faith is the only correct faith and all other faiths have made mistakes somewhere.

It's not like there are people of EVERY SINGLE faith on the planet making the same claim or anything...

TransmutingSoul · Sep 20, 2021

Tiberius said:
Is there any point in trying to have a discussion about this with you if you are going to intentionally muddy the waters?

Intentionally muddying the waters, can be seen as directing a person to give either a yes or a no answer, when they offer there is more to it than a yes and I answer.

Yes and no answers are requested by people that wish to direct a conversation to a specific point, as to validate what they offer.

Regards Tony

Tiberius · Sep 20, 2021

Trailblazer said:
I never said they are not unfalsifiable. They are unfalsifiable.

Then if you agreed with what I said, why the attempt to make excuses?

So what?

So, that shows that you are making a deliberate attempt to keep the religious belief unfalsifiable. I suspect it's because you know that once it is in a state where it can be falsified, it WILL be falsified.

There is some kind of difference. Believers will testify that God answers some prayers although they could never prove it.

And what is this difference? That's just the same as saying, "Believers will testify that the Toaster answers some prayers although they could never prove it."

Trailblazer · Sep 20, 2021

Tiberius said:
I do eliminate as many biases as I can. I use a wonderful little technique called SCIENCE.

That does not eliminate your personal biases.

Tiberius said:
But your verification is unfalsifiable, isn't it?

It is, but so what? That does not mean I have not verified it.

Tiberius said:
There is no evidence that can only be explained by the existence of a God.

Messengers of God can only be explained by the existence of God because “Messengers OF GOD” cannot exist unless there is a God.

Tiberius said:
I'm saying that if he had an agenda, then he would only have provided the evidence that supported that agenda.

He did have an agenda, to represent God, serve the Cause of God, and offer the proof that God exists. In carrying out His agenda items He provided evidence that supported His agenda items.

Trailblazer · Sep 20, 2021

Tiberius said:
I would say that claiming to know something and claiming to know it as a fact carry pretty much the same meaning, since they both indicate that the speaker is completely convinced of what they are saying.

No, they do not carry the same meaning because a person can know something even if it is not an established fact.

Tiberius said:
True. But if all we have are writings that make certain unfalsifiable claims and our own gut feelings, we don't actually have any proper evidence, do we?

We do have proper evidence and we have more than just gut feelings. We have a mind, so it is our job to look at the evidence and determine what it means.

Tiberius said:
This starts with the assumption that there is a God.

No, it starts with entertaining the possibility that there could be a God. Then you look at the evidence and try to determine if that is really the case.

Tiberius said:
Since you agree that one needs more than just "feeling" that a source is correct, can you please tell me what evidence you have to support the claim that Mr B was a messenger from God that comes from a source supported by more than just you "feeling" it to be true?

I have posted the evidence on numerous occasions so I am not going to post it again. If you want to see the claims and the evidence that support those claims you will have to look at this post.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

Atheist looking for religious debate. Any religion. Let's see if I can be convinced.

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