Morphine for the Dying

Terrywoodenpic said:

Mother's get pain relief. Usually an epidural or gas and air.

Not all deaths are painful. You get what you need, often nothing at all.

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I started this thread, because both my parents and my brother in law who died last week were given morphine, and they were not in pain ahead of time. They just automatically gave it to them as part of hospice.

I do NOT have any issue with taking it if you are in extreme pain in death. As that itself would be a major distraction.

Subduction Zone said:

You brought up your NDE as evidence. The reason one would test it is to see if it qualifies as evidence.

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I brought it up only because some knee-jerk post claimed I was speaking from ignorance about my views. That's BS. Experience is not speaking from ignorance.

I really don't care whether someone believes in that or not, as it misses the point of this thread which clearly stated that IF you believed in that, would you want it. NOT whether atheism or theism is real, for ****s sake! What is it about atheists having to be right or not? That's not the point of this thread! Such insecurity. I just lost my brother in law last week, and both my parents in the past 5 years. This was a serious thread before that.

Windwalker said:

I brought it up only becasue some knee-jerk post claimed I was speaking from ignorance about my views. That's BS. Experience is not speaking from ignorance. I really don't care whether someone believes in that or not, as it misses the point of this thread which clearly stated that IF you believed in that, would you want it. NOT whether atheism or theism is real, for ****s sake!

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The problem is that your experience does not appear to be valid evidence. Which means that you did not refute the post that you referred to.

SomeRandom said:

Well I guess I just assumed that if a patient refuses, the nurses have to respect that by law. I mean they can’t give you something against your will, surely. At least they can’t where I live.
But is pain at all necessary?
If you’re on the brink of death, what’s the harm in minimising pain?

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I don't object to that, but better if it could also minimizing clouding your reality at the same time. Yes? I may be wrong about the dosage of morphine actually making you stoned, in which case I don't see an issue with that per se. And if you were out of your mind in pain, and it was necessary to go 4 sheets to the wind to ease that, possibly so in that case. I don't see a value in pain for pain's sake.

SomeRandom said:

In my spiritual practice to not do so for a patient would be considered “sinful” because you’re allowing suffering to occur needlessly.
Of course if the person refuses morphine, that’s their business. But I’d think nurses wouldn’t like to see suffering. Unless they’re like super Catholic or something I suppose.

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I don't recall anyone asking my parents who were not in pain that I could see whether or not to use morphine. They just did it for both of them as a matter of course. Same thing with my brother in law last week.

Do you understand my concerns here? Would I want that, "just because that's what they do", if I didn't need it?

SomeRandom said:

Well, what if they just take an aspirin as a compromise?

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Sure, anything that doesn't make you loopy would be welcome. I don't see any value in pain for pain's sake.

pearl said:

Many hospice patients I have worked with have felt much the same, especially those belonging to a religious belief of life after death. They want to be conscious and present to the transition. But the intense pain all but destroys/distorts any conscious hope of witnessing the transition. Pope John Paul II, it is said, wished to be conscious but again the intense pain was too much and he succumbed to medication. That being said there is no reason to believe that although one is not conscious to the living doesn't mean she/he is not conscious to the transition. Many are heard carrying on conversations with loved ones who have passed.

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Thank you for this reply. This is helpful to me. It addresses my question and concerns nicely. Appreciate it.

You could always look into the effects of morphine on reasoning capabilities. Due to excessive abuse there is no way to find out for oneself.

Subduction Zone said:

The problem is that your experience does not appear to be valid evidence. Which means that you did not refute the post that you referred to.

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let it go. It's not about evidence and convincing "skeptics".

Windwalker said:

let it go. It's not about evidence and convincing "skeptics".

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Fine. Back to the matter at hand. From various sources if one abuses morphine it definitely clouds thought but it does not appear that an excessive amount is used in hospice. This may help:

What you need to know about morphine and hospice | JourneyCare

Windwalker said:

More like arguing an orange doesn't taste sweet, when you've never tasted one.

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But everyone can confirm oranges actually exist, and the taste test can be done by anyone at any time, yes?

But as I said at the outset, this isn't about arguing if there is an afterlife or not. It's about those who are dying who already accept that as either their belief, or having had experience of the Divine itself. Rational logic arguments against such, are beside the point here.

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Belief built on belief doesn't get anyone very far. It's more uncertainty if anything.

Windwalker said:

I don't object to that, but better if it could also minimizing clouding your reality at the same time. Yes? I may be wrong about the dosage of morphine actually making you stoned, in which case I don't see an issue with that per se. And if you were out of your mind in pain, and it was necessary to go 4 sheets to the wind to ease that, possibly so in that case. I don't see a value in pain for pain's sake.

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I’m not entirely sure of the dosage making you stoned. I remember one hospital trip I was in extreme pain. When they gave me morphine I mostly just felt sleepy. I think if you force yourself to stay awake it will certainly make you stoned. But that’s not really the intent behind giving you morphine.
Not that I’d judge a person for getting stoned off morphine in a hospital mind you. I was high as a kite when my family visited me and I forced myself to stay awake for them lol

Windwalker said:

I don't recall anyone asking my parents who were not in pain that I could see whether or not to use morphine. They just did it for both of them as a matter of course. Same thing with my brother in law last week.

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Hmm, that doesn’t sound very good. I guess I can understand in a hospital, nurses will be overworked so they will sort of just go with what they think is best. They won’t ask, you have to interject, politely of course.
I do think that a patient should have the right to refuse whatever they please. Unless they’re being violent.

Windwalker said:

Do you understand my concerns here? Would I want that, "just because that's what they do", if I didn't need it?

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Of course. But I would recommend being outspoken (politely though) about any objections you have in your treatment with your nurse and doctor. If you don’t then they’ll just go through the motions and do what’s done. That’s how it normally goes. You have to remember nurses are overworked by default. They’re not going to waste any time talking to you, because they’re gonna be flat out. So you have to be the impetus for conversation.

Windwalker said:

Sure, anything that doesn't make you loopy would be welcome. I don't see any value in pain for pain's sake.

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Well again I recommend open polite communication with anyone treating you or your family. You don’t have to take anything you don’t want to. That’s your right. At least that’s how I view the matter.

And @Windwalker , do you have an Advanced Directive yet? I am pretty sure that you can pick up the forms at any doctor's office. It is a good idea to have one filled out ahead of time. And as long as you are all there mentally you can change them. No one can change it for you. Any changes have to come from the person it applies to.

I am hoping that there is no immediate need.

At any rate you can opt out of morphine now, but if needed you can change your mind later.

Windwalker said:

Would you ask for it even if you weren't in pain?

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I don't think so. But this is about morphine to handle pain. I've been in terrible pain, I wouldn't want to die that way.

Windwalker said:

This thread is about whether or not you would want to take it, if you believed you are not annihilated at death. NOT if you should withhold it for others who wish it! Good god! This isn't' a Christian argument, wanting to shove their beliefs down others throats!

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Oh.....
I just read your OP:-

I understand different religions have different perspectives about this. What are your thoughts?

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Yep, it was about religions' perspectives.

F1fan said:

But everyone can confirm oranges actually exist, and the taste test can be done by anyone at any time, yes?


Belief built on belief doesn't get anyone very far. It's more uncertainty if anything.

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Does this matter to the point of this thread, which is about those who believe in the afterlife and want to face death without being drugged out? Not sure why you think this thread is about convincing atheists to believe or something?

Perhaps you might wish to start a thread of your own about that? If you wish to understand my actual beliefs, that might be interesting in that context, if I feel so inspired.

anna b. said:

I don't think so. But this is about morphine to handle pain. I've been in terrible pain, I wouldn't want to die that way.

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It really was about how hospice care just gives it out as a matter of course, even to those who aren't suffering in pain while dying. I don't get that. Do you?

Windwalker said:

It really was about how hospice care just gives it out as a matter of course, even to those who aren't suffering in pain while dying. I don't get that. Do you?

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If a person does not have an Advanced Directive hospice care will do the best that they can to minimize pain. That means that they do administer morphine rather freely at times. This is why and Advance Directive is very important if one disagrees with that sort of care. You have the freedom to tell them ahead of time what sort of care that you want. My father was rather clear that he did not want extreme measures taken. We could have prolonged his life quite a bit if we were willing to have him hooked up to a machine, but it was not in his wishes so we did not even try to oppose that. You can say "No opiates" in your Advance Directive. And if places violate them they are open to big lawsuits. Assisted care places tend to follow those very closely as a result.

Subduction Zone said:

If a person does not have an Advanced Directive hospice care will do the best that they can to minimize pain. That means that they do administer morphine rather freely at times. This is why and Advance Directive is very important if one disagrees with that sort of care. You have the freedom to tell them ahead of time what sort of care that you want. My father was rather clear that he did not want extreme measures taken. We could have prolonged his life quite a bit if we were willing to have him hooked up to a machine, but it was not in his wishes so we did not even try to oppose that. You can say "No opiates" in your Advance Directive. And if places violate them they are open to big lawsuits. Assisted care places tend to follow those very closely as a result.

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I wouldn't think that giving morphine for those dying would just be assumed to be a given to do, if the dying was not actually in pain. I wouldn't think you'd need an advanced directive for that. Another poster here who was a director of hospice care indicated it was not, yet they gave it to each member of my family just as a matter of course. Why?

I am not convinced I would not want it myself if I was in great pain. I probably would. But I think if it was not necessary, it shouldn't be given automatically. Do you? If I did not need it, then I think transitioning without being stoned would be better, as I said at the outset about insights and all that.

That is of course if you viewed that the essence of your consciousness continues beyond the body's death, as I do. If you don't believe that, then it's not really an issue either way, I would think. But maybe not even for some atheists. Which would you prefer, if you were not in extreme pain? Lucid, or looped?

Windwalker said:

I wouldn't think that giving morphine for those dying would just be assumed to be a given to do, if the dying was not actually in pain. I wouldn't think you'd need an advanced directive for that. Another poster here who was a director of hospice care indicated it was not, yet they gave it to each member of my family just as a matter of course. Why?

I am not convinced I would not want it myself if I was in great pain. I probably would. But I think if it was not necessary, it shouldn't be given automatically. Do you? If I did not need it, then I think transitioning without being stoned would be better, as I said at the outset about insights and all that.

That is of course if you viewed that the essence of your consciousness continues beyond the body's death, as I do. If you don't believe that, then it's not really an issue either way, I would think. But maybe not even for some atheists. Which would you prefer, if you were not in extreme pain? Lucid, or looped?

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It has other benefits too. It can improve breathing for example. Often part of bad lung function is excessive tension and it will help to relieve that. My father was on Fentanyl, an extremely powerful opiate, to help with his breathing. He had a patch that had just a teeny tiny amount of the drug on it and it entered his body through his skin. People in hospicecare will use their judgment and if they see signs of pain they will take steps to alleviate it. Look at it this way, when a person is dying there is no danger of addiction.

At least you know that your options are open. No one will judge you either way when it comes to the directives on how you end your life.

F1fan said:

But everyone can confirm oranges actually exist, and the taste test can be done by anyone at any time, yes?

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No, only people who have seen and tasted oranges can confirm they exist. My mother, who was born just before WWII, didn’t see an orange, or a banana, until she was 15 years old. Before then, she had only heard tell of oranges. She believed in oranges, and God, throughout a childhood traumatised by poverty and war. The belief in God, and the prospect of a brighter future, possibly containing oranges, helped sustain her and millions of others.

The generations born in Western Europe after the war, had plenty of oranges and, for the most part, no need of God. That was in time of plenty, but that golden era is over for most; capitalism is undergoing another existential crisis possibly greater than that of the 1930s. It’ll take more than oranges to see humanity through the decades to come.

Windwalker said:

There is such an enormous misunderstanding in this thread. I question the use of morphine in hospice as a given, just handed out just because they are dying. I do NOT disagree that if someone is in fact suffering with extreme pain they can be given morphine.

I was with both my parents as they died, neither was in pain ahead of time, yet they gave them morphine. Same with my brother in law who died last week. Why would they give that, and should they, just because they are dying?

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I was also with both my parents at the end, and they were both not only in pain, but no longer cognizant of their situation. In the case of my dad, I administered the morphine and he died quietly, and presumably unknowingly. Whatever happened after that is not for me OR YOU to say.

Windwalker said:

Regarding your "evidence" argument. Phooey to that. I have had an NDE. I know what I experienced was absolutely real. You have logic arguments based on a lack of actual experience. I have direct experience. What more is there to say? This thread isn't about debating if God is real or not. It's about those who believe there is something beyond this life, being stoned at death, just because some think they should be.

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If God Himself were to hover right in front of us, right now, and declare that we should not be doped up to die, neither one of us could verify that what we were experiencing is God. We may believe it, totally. But our believing it is not proof. And IF WE ARE BEING HONEST about it, we will have to acknowledge that there are other equally plausible explanations for what we're witnessing. So you can cry "phooey" and proclaim all the personal experiences you want to, and it's still not going to change anyone's mind. Because we all know that there are other explanations, even if you have rejected them. And like it or not, your experience, and your belief in your understanding of it, is proof of nothing to the rest of us. And so cannot logically nor fairly be used to dictate to the rest of us how we should die.