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John 14:6

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
In the mid-seventies, Trappist Abbot Thomas Keating asked the monks, “‘Could we put the Christian tradition into a form that would be accessible to people . . . who have been instructed in an Eastern technique and might be inspired to return to their Christian roots if they knew there was something similar in the Christian tradition?”’ (Intimacy with God, 15). Frs. William Menniger and M. Basil Pennington took up the challenge, and centering prayer is the result. In a few short years it has spread all over the world.

Centering prayer originated in St. Joseph’s Abbey, a Trappist monastery in Spencer, Massachusetts. During the twenty years (1961–1981) when Keating was abbot, St. Joseph’s held dialogues with Buddhist and Hindu representatives, and a Zen master gave a week-long retreat to the monks. A former Trappist monk who had become a Transcendental Meditation teacher also gave a session to the monks.

Many people assume centering prayer is compatible with Catholic tradition, but in fact the techniques of centering prayer are neither Christian nor prayer. They are at the level of human faculties and as such are an operation of man, not of God. The deception and dangers can be grave.

Centering prayer differs from Christian prayer in that the intent of the technique is to bring the practitioner to the center of his own being. There he is, supposedly, to experience the presence of the God who indwells him. Christian prayer, on the contrary, centers upon God in a relational way, as someone apart from oneself. The Christian knows a God who is personal, yet who, as Creator, infinitely transcends his creature. God is wholly other than man. It is also crucial to Christian prayer that God engages man’s whole being in response, not just his interior life. In the view of centering prayer, the immanence of God somehow makes the transcendence of God available to human techniques and experience.

Centering prayer is essentially a form of self-hypnosis. It makes use of a “mantra,” a word repeated over and over to focus the mind while striving by one’s will to go deep within oneself. The effects are a hypnotic-like state: concentration upon one thing, disengagement from other stimuli, a high degree of openness to suggestion, a psychological and physiological condition that externally resembles sleep but in which consciousness is interiorized and the mind subject to suggestion. After reading a published description of centering prayer, a psychology professor said, “Your question is, is this hypnosis? Sure it is.” He said the state can be verified physiologically by the drop in blood pressure, respiratory rate, lactic acid level in the blood, and the galvanic conductivity of the skin. Abbot Keating relates that, when they began doing the centering prayer workshops in the guest house, some of the monks and guests ” complained that it was spooky seeing people walking around the guest house like ‘zombies.”’ They recognized the symptoms but could not diagnose the illness.
In order to see clearly that centering prayer departs from Catholic tradition, let us review the differences between Christian spirituality and that of Eastern religions. These differences flow, above all, from their concepts of God, of man, and of their relationship. In light of this contrast, we should be able to see more clearly from which of these centering prayer draws its approach and techniques.

In Catholic teaching, all men are creatures, called out of nothingness to know God. All men are also sinners, cut off from God and destined to death. A Christian is one whose life has been reconstituted in Christ. He is no longer in the place and stance of a sinner, that is, apart from God, acting as if he were the ultimate source, measure, and goal of his own behavior. He is in Christ. Henceforth, his life is supposed to originate in Christ and to be directed to God the Father. I say “supposed to” for it is a possibility that must be acted upon. It is not automatic. The grace of baptism must be incarnated in obedience, and, even after baptism, the Christian can choose to conform to Christ or to his fallen nature, that is, to sin.

Eastern religions, in contrast, lack revelation of God as a personal Creator who radically transcends his creatures. Though possessing many praiseworthy elements, they nonetheless seek God as if he were part of the universe, rather than its Creator. This is because they are monistic, seeing all reality as one. Thus, God is a dimension, though hidden, of the same reality of which man is a part. The goal therefore is to peel away the exterior world to get to the spiritual reality beneath it. God is conceived of as an impersonal state of being. In contrast, for Christians, God is the Real, and the whole of the universe exists by God’s free choice; creation is a second, contingent reality—and, in Christian thought, did not need to exist. Moreover, this contingent universe is the result of a God who is vastly more than mere being; he is a loving Father.
These differing conceptions of God issue in different approaches to God. In the East, human means are necessarily relied upon to come to God. The goal is not to seek God as an Other, but to achieve an altered state of consciousness. Where a Christian seeks dialogue and interaction with God and, with his help, the “restoration of all things in Christ,” by a certain “participation in the divine nature” (2 Peter 4:4), the East seeks God in the self and seeks escape from the distractions of the outer world. The “experience of God” is essentially achieved by psychological and physiological technique rather than byencounter.

The confusion of technique over encounter arises from a misunderstanding of the indwelling of God. The fact that God indwells us does not mean that we can capture him by techniques. Nor does it mean that we are identical with him in our deepest self. Rather, God indwells us by grace which does not blend human and divine natures. On the contrary, it perfects and empowers our limited human faculties, so that we can relate to him. We can no more manipulate this indwelling of grace by psychological techniques than we can manipulate our existence.

Analogously, children do not come to know the parents who gave them existence by going deep inside themselves or back to the moment of their conception. They come to know their parents by interaction with them. As children use the faculties given them at conception to grow and become like their parents, so we use the faculties given us by the indwelling Spirit to interact with God and to put on Jesus Christ. As children speak to their parents, so we speak to God by the power of the Holy Spirit who indwells us.
Thank you so much Dogknox20, I feel Trappist Monk Thomas Keating was correct, I feel the same way and it is where I am coming from also. It all get's back to "to love God is to let go of self". There is always going to be errors made on the journey to truth, to God, but these errors, including deception by demons, will eventually and surely be corrected so long as one's heart, mind, and soul is determined to settle for nothing less than total love of God. Do we suffer as a result of our errors, we certainly do, but it is the way of learning. As God says in Hebrews, a father does not punish his son because he hates him, but because he loves him. Perfection and purity of spirit is achieved through correction of errors, and it is the grace of God that shines the light on these errors, which we 'see' when our mind is not deceived by its own egoic conceit, in silence.

 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I don't believe it will be Jesus because Jesus said He was no more in the world and He finished the work God gave Him to do.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

I believe my translation says "no longer." I believe that denotes an end but that does not preclude a new beginning. Otherwise when Jesus said He would be raised from the dead, He would have been lying when He said no longer and it meant never.

I believe God works anytime He wishes. Just because He finishes one project does not mean He won't do anything else.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
So then....which is right? Has anyone on earth seen God at any time?? Yes!! Jesus MADE HIM KNOWN...but that verse says NO ONE HAS EVER SEEN GOD. period. Think about what it means. Please try not to use caps unless you want me to use caps back to you ORRR stop talking to you and have a nice day. Caps imply yelling and I don't like that. I prefer not using caps in general so I would appreciate it if you don't use them to emphasize your thoughts. Thanks.

I believe "making known" and "seeing" are not the same thing. God was made known by Moses and the prophets but that was all second hand. People got to know God directly through Jesus.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
So I would be interested to see the Catholic article you mention that warns about "stilling of the mind, ie., a mind without thought, Meditation"?

The way it works for me when the mind is still, is that the ego self interested in itself, pleasure, pride, etc., is let go and the Spirit of God is then no longer obscured, and to which one's still mind then begins to unite with in Divine love.

I believe meditation leads to any old spirit making itself known. One must focus on God and be receptive to Him to hear Him only.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I believe God works anytime He wishes. Just because He finishes one project does not mean He won't do anything else.
I fully agree. There will always be new Revelations from God which will vary according to the needs of the times.
God never leaves humanity alone

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I believe meditation leads to any old spirit making itself known. One must focus on God and be receptive to Him to hear Him only.
I do not know how you understand the meaning of meditation, but focusing on God is meditation. 1 Corinthians 2:9-10
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
I believe "making known" and "seeing" are not the same thing. God was made known by Moses and the prophets but that was all second hand. People got to know God directly through Jesus.

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I believe "making known" and "seeing" are not the same thing. God was made known by Moses and the prophets but that was all second hand. People got to know God directly through Jesus.
If someone explains something to me and I understand, I can say "I see" in a figurative sense.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.
The word God applied to Jesus must be understood in context. John 1:1 helps to understand that the Word was with God in the beginning, and was God. That's two. Explicitly, a God (known as the Word) with God. Two, not three.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
The word God applied to Jesus must be understood in context. John 1:1 helps to understand that the Word was with God in the beginning, and was God. That's two. Explicitly, a God (known as the Word) with God. Two, not three.
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

YoursTrue You are trying very hard to twist God' words until God is saying what you want to have God say!

Massage and Massage the words of God it does NOT help at all.. The FACTS REMAIN.. Christians have ALWAYS worship Jesus "The Word"
"In the beginning was the Word, & The Word became Flesh and lived among us!"

the Word was with God, and the Word was God." PROVING the second part of the TRINITY!
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue You are trying very hard to twist God' words until God is saying what you want to have God say!

Massage and Massage the words of God it does NOT help at all.. The FACTS REMAIN.. Christians have ALWAYS worship Jesus "The Word"
"In the beginning was the Word, & The Word became Flesh and lived among us!"

the Word was with God, and the Word was God." PROVING the second part of the TRINITY!
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
It's not twisting. It says the the Word (commonly recognized as Jesus, the son of God), was God and was with God. So clearly there is God (King James and many other versions) with God. (2)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue You are trying very hard to twist God' words until God is saying what you want to have God say!

Massage and Massage the words of God it does NOT help at all.. The FACTS REMAIN.. Christians have ALWAYS worship Jesus "The Word"
"In the beginning was the Word, & The Word became Flesh and lived among us!"

the Word was with God, and the Word was God." PROVING the second part of the TRINITY!
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
Nothing says there that three godpersons were talking about the situation involving Adam and what he did. Thank you for pointing that out, because it says the 'man' has become like one of us.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue You are trying very hard to twist God' words until God is saying what you want to have God say!

Massage and Massage the words of God it does NOT help at all.. The FACTS REMAIN.. Christians have ALWAYS worship Jesus "The Word"
"In the beginning was the Word, & The Word became Flesh and lived among us!"

the Word was with God, and the Word was God." PROVING the second part of the TRINITY!
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
One might imagine that the LORD God was speaking to two others, but it doesn't say that. The LORD God said the man has now become like one of us. So going back to the beginning of John again, it says the Word was God (was God, by the way) and was with God. Now again, we have to go back to the definition of what means god, just like people define other words. Also remember that upper and lower case letters were not used in the Hebrew-Aramaic scriptures as we do today.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
It's not twisting. It says the the Word (commonly recognized as Jesus, the son of God), was God and was with God. So clearly there is God (King James and many other versions) with God. (2)

YoursTrue Yes "WITH God".. Proving the Trinity! Christians worship Jesus because "Jesus is God"!

Phi 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
KJ21
who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
CEV
Christ was truly God. But he did not try to remain equal with God.
...........................................................................
Dictionary Dot Com
EQUAL
adjective
1) as great as; the same as (often followed by to or with):The velocity of sound is not equal to that of light.
2) like or alike in quantity, degree, value, etc.; of the same rank, ability, merit, etc.:two students of equal brilliance.
3) evenly proportioned or balanced :an equal contest.
...........................................................................

YoursTrue Christians have ALWAYS worshiped Jesus! Thomas the Apostle is a Christian: He worshiped Jesus!
Jesus is EQUAL to God the Father!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Nothing says there that three godpersons were talking about the situation involving Adam and what he did. Thank you for pointing that out, because it says the 'man' has become like one of us.
YoursTrue "Like One of US"! "US" is Plural.. "More then one"! It means there is MORE then one at the least, it could mean 101 but it is MORE then ONE! "US"!

FACT: When you speak for another person it is said you "Represent the other person!" You have their AUTHORITY to represent them! The Mayor speaks for us the citizens; President speaks for us the electorate!! The Apostles speak for God with all of God' authority! Baptism makes God' children, Baptism gives God' AUTHORITY to speak for him!

18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

YoursTrue In the name of the Father with all of the Fathers AUTHORITY!
In the name of the SON with all of the SON' AUTHORITY!
In the name of the HOLY SPIRIT with all of the HOLY SPIRIT' AUTHORITY! Speak for "US" make our Children by immersing them into the Body of the Son!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
One might imagine that the LORD God was speaking to two others, but it doesn't say that. The LORD God said the man has now become like one of us. So going back to the beginning of John again, it says the Word was God (was God, by the way) and was with God. Now again, we have to go back to the definition of what means god, just like people define other words. Also remember that upper and lower case letters were not used in the Hebrew-Aramaic scriptures as we do today.
.
You make no sense ...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

YoursTrue So you are saying the "Word is no more!?" Are you saying "God is NO MORE!"? and the Word was God.

The WORD BECAME MAN!
The WORD LIVED WITH US!
The WORD made all things!

4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.

YoursTrue Jesus is the TRUE Manna come down from heaven!
Jesus "The WORD" because MAN and lives among us!

YoursTrue For you to reject Jesus you MUST reject the scriptures! Twist the words of God, pour different meaning into his scriptures! The WORD is the LIGHT and the LIFE of the world!

FACT: Christians worship Jesus... Always have!
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
YoursTrue Yes "WITH God".. Proving the Trinity! Christians worship Jesus because "Jesus is God"!

It does? That Jesus was said (in many translations) to be the Word God with God proves the trinity? :) It proves that there were two (not three) persons described as "God" (or god) in heaven at John 1:1. Good you're trying to reckon with that. So that's two. God with God.
Remember that the original texts did not have upper case or lower case differentiating words. True Christians recognize that Jesus has divinely given authority from his Father. One must recognize Jesus as the divinely approved one if they are to have everlasting life. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

New American Standard Bible
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
.
You make no sense ...In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

YoursTrue So you are saying the "Word is no more!?" Are you saying "God is NO MORE!"? and the Word was God.

The WORD BECAME MAN!
The WORD LIVED WITH US!
The WORD made all things!

4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.

YoursTrue Jesus is the TRUE Manna come down from heaven!
Jesus "The WORD" because MAN and lives among us!

YoursTrue For you to reject Jesus you MUST reject the scriptures! Twist the words of God, pour different meaning into his scriptures! The WORD is the LIGHT and the LIFE of the world!

FACT: Christians worship Jesus... Always have!
Yes, it was by means of the Word that all things were made.
Look at John 1:1 again, DK. In the more popular versions it says the Word, was with God. And that he was God (with God). Remember Jesus said he was going back to God--spoken as his Father and his God. Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." Jesus knew who His God was. He also knew that his God was his Father. So, unless a person has the right attitude, he cannot truly understand the message.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
It does? That Jesus was said (in many translations) to be the Word God with God proves the trinity? :) It proves that there were two (not three) persons described as "God" (or god) in heaven at John 1:1. Good you're trying to reckon with that. So that's two. God with God.
Remember that the original texts did not have upper case or lower case differentiating words. True Christians recognize that Jesus has divinely given authority from his Father. One must recognize Jesus as the divinely approved one if they are to have everlasting life. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
New American Standard Bible
.
Baptize In the Name of God... "Father, Son & Holy Spirit!" (3)
Jesus is "The Life Come down from heaven"!
33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
The Tree of LIFE is in heaven.. AND The Tree of Knowledge is in heaven! (2) trees!
Adam could eat all he wanted from the tree of LIFE but never from the other tree.. The Tree of Knowledge. Because of Adam' sin he thus brought death to God' perfect creation he was removed because can't live forever with sin! Adam was removed from "The LIFE"!
YoursTrue The Tree Of Knowledge is a separate entity it represents another part of the "US"! Nothing says.. US cannot be more then two!
22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
Jesus is The LIFE Come down!
The Holy Spirit is Knowledge HE is separate from Jesus! HE is separate from The Father!
John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

NOTE... All of creation; All of God' PERFECT Creation came up out of the waters... The Holy Spirit HOVERED over the waters to make the waters Holy! All that came Up Out was thus made Holy!
Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
YoursTrue The Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and The Son!

NOTE.. The Holy Spirit again comes down and made Mary Holy so Jesus was Holy coming from Mary!
Luke 1:35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
YoursTrue The Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and The Son!

All coming out of the waters of Baptism are thus Holy because of the Spirit Jesus gives as a GIFT!
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
YoursTrue The Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and The Son!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Yes, it was by means of the Word that all things were made.
Look at John 1:1 again, DK. In the more popular versions it says the Word, was with God. And that he was God (with God). Remember Jesus said he was going back to God--spoken as his Father and his God. Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." Jesus knew who His God was. He also knew that his God was his Father. So, unless a person has the right attitude, he cannot truly understand the message.

You forget "Jesus is 100% Man & 100% God!" As a Man he was made a little lower then the Angels!
As a man he experienced Death! As a Man/God he had a God in Heaven his Father!
Jesus the God was BORN of a woman so he could be a Man and die! Can't die as a Man if not first born as one! God became part of his own creation!
(below) different translations.. Not all have the word "WAS"!
AMP
In the beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself.
CEV
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God
GW
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God
TLB
Before anything else existed, there was Christ,* with God. He has always been alive and is himself God
MSG
The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word. The Word was God, in readiness for God from day one
NOG
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God
NET
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
TPT
In the beginning the Living Expression was already there. And the Living Expression was with God, yet fully God.
WE
The Word already was, way back before anything began to be. The Word and God were together. The Word was God.

YoursTrue You can't get hung up on the word "WAS" you want to have a different meaning to the word "WAS" as if it means something stopped existing! QUESTION: Did "The WORD cease to exist!? Scripture ... and the Word was God.. NOW the word is NOT God?!

Scripture In the beginning was the Word,
YoursTrue In the Beginning was GOD! ....CEV In the beginning was the one who is called the Word.
NOW you put the words WAS WITH together as if The Word is NOT with God anymore!?
 
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