Reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism.

Lyndon · Sep 17, 2021

the Pali canon is like 300 volumes, all I can say is if you start reading it anywhere you won't go long before you find the word rebirth or reincarnation, and those are translations of the same word in Pali.

firedragon · Sep 17, 2021

Lyndon said:
I was only a monk for 3 weeks but I was a temple boy for much longer, off and on, lived at temples for about a year, I can't quote the pali canon, but if you read it you will see it is constantly referring to reincarnation or rebirth depending on the translator.

The Pali canon does not really teach reincarnation over and over again as you say, unless I have missed such an important thing in it which I have to read up. See if you could give some references. Thanks.

firedragon · Sep 17, 2021

Lyndon said:
the Pali canon is like 300 volumes, all I can say is if you start reading it anywhere you won't go long before you find the word rebirth or reincarnation, and those are translations of the same word in Pali.

I presume you are referring to the Tipitaka. Dont worry Lyndon. If you give me a reference I can find it. But if you are referring to something else, then I dont have the resources.

Lyndon · Sep 17, 2021

The whole reincarnation/rebirth switch was largely an effort to separate and distinguish Buddhism from Hinduism, many secular Buddhists are always trying to put down Hinduism and reincarnation is a fundamental teaching of Hinduism, so they switch the translation to rebirth and say voila, we are different from and better than Hindus because we believe in rebirth not reincarnation, but really its not that different. IMHO

firedragon · Sep 17, 2021

Lyndon said:
I was only a monk for 3 weeks but I was a temple boy for much longer, off and on, lived at temples for about a year,

It is still a privilege to meet someone like you mate.

Lyndon · Sep 17, 2021

firedragon said:
I presume you are referring to the Tipitaka. Dont worry Lyndon. If you give me a reference I can find it. But if you are referring to something else, then I dont have the resources.

You're telling me you've read the pali scripures and you've never seen the word rebirth or reincarnation used, unbelievable

firedragon · Sep 17, 2021

Lyndon said:
You're telling me you've read the pali scripures and you've never seen the word rebirth or reincarnation used, unbelievable

Nope. I didn't say that.

I want to know exactly what you are referring to for my knowledge.

Lyndon · Sep 17, 2021

here you go

Access to Insight Search Results

Lyndon · Sep 17, 2021

That is a search for rebirth topic in the access to insight translation of much of the Pali scriptures.

firedragon · Sep 17, 2021

Lyndon said:
here you go

Access to Insight Search Results

Alright. So in that link, there is the Kammavibhanga Sutta right? In that the word Rebirth (Or as you said the correct translation as reincarnation) appears. What is the Pali word that has been wrongly translated in this?

Lyndon · Sep 17, 2021

Found it reincarnation or rebirth is punnabbhava in Pali

Martin · Sep 17, 2021

firedragon said:
Martin, in all honesty, this is what people call the "rebirth and the problem of no-self". The idea that in samsara, which is impermanent, and changing, there can be no permanent, unchanging, independent self or soul, unlike general ideas in Hinduism and even Jainism. I think if you truly try to understand this, there maybe several types of responses. One of those responses was the personal argument, I hope that translates well. Its Pudgala which is expressed as a personal entity which is not expressible. Vada meaning the argument or school of thought. This by itself is an apologetic attempt by an old Buddhist school which is in fact contradicting the no-self principle. Then there is this idea of an intermediate state between death and birth.

The Theravada school has a theory called pati sandhi. Pati meaning cause. Sandhi meaning the junction or connecting link if I may. There is a consciousness in the depth of life. Its not active. It neither self or soul. One one existence ends, this provides the effect on the first consciousness of a new birth. That is the causal connector or again, pati sandhi. The first moment of consciousness in a new birth is simply the direct conditioned effect of the final moment of consciousness of the immediately previous existence. I think it can be explained as a dependent origination which is a Buddhist philosophy of causality. "That" is dependent on "this".

Where is pati sandhi described exactly?

Martin · Sep 17, 2021

Lyndon said:
Found it reincarnation or rebirth is punnabbhava in Pali

I think that's "again becoming". But it depends on how you interpret "bhava", which is not a straightforward matter. Bhava is one of the asavas, so "existence" doesn't seem like a good translation.

Lyndon · Sep 17, 2021

punnabbhava; again becoming is translated as reincarnation or rebirth, depending on the biases of the translator

Secret Chief · Sep 17, 2021

Martin said:
Yes, it seems to be about cause and effect, which is one way of talking about kamma. In the Buddhist suttas, beings are said to reappear in various realms, according to their actions. Though a being is just a temporary collection of aggregates, so it's not like there is actually anything being reborn.

That's basically my take; I don't subscribe to the realms thing.

Secret Chief · Sep 17, 2021

Lyndon said:
So you only believe some of what the Buddha says?

Correct.

firedragon · Sep 17, 2021

Lyndon said:
I forget but I think its something like punnabhaghana, someone posted it in a previous post early in the thread.

No. In that case it should be punarjeeva. Maybe you are referring to Punarbhavana. Punar is "re or alluding to next". Bhavana is like a plain. Punarbhavana is "next plain". Punarjeeva is "next life". Jeeva meaning life.

Anyway, the reference in your page you gave comes from Majjima Nikaya. Direct reference is Maha Kamma Vibhanga Sutta, 3.4.6. I think. The previous chapter is Choola Kamma Vibhanga Suttan and the problem with the page you gave seems to be that in places where it says "born", as in "Uppajjathi" is translated as "reborn". Being reborn is an inference in this matter. The word used means "born". It says "Yattha Yattha Pachchaajayathi, appayuko hothi" which means "born here and there their life span will be short". In the website you gave it is translated "reborn".

The Tipitaka does not really make the difference between Reincarnation and Rebirth etc which are English words that we use for our convenience. I understand we dont really have a choice. But, the writing is speaking of birth. It does not necessarily say reincarnation of the same soul takes place this way or the other.

But as you said, it is very vast. Thus, if you could provide a specific source where it explains the rebirth of a soul, atma or atta, then that would be great.

Peace.

firedragon · Sep 17, 2021

Martin said:
Where is pati sandhi described exactly?

Pati Sandhi? You mean scripture? Its not scriptural for such elaboration. It is a school of thought.

But if what you are looking for is Buddhist scripture, I dont know much of the Mahayana literature. I can give you direct reference to the Prathama Mahanama Suttan in the Samyuktha Nikhaaya. It will not use the word Patisandhi, but the concept is inferred from this.

firedragon · Sep 17, 2021

Lyndon said:
punnabbhava; again becoming is translated as reincarnation or rebirth, depending on the biases of the translator

I believe it should matter which word is used. Both would not mean much if we had preconceived notions. You were right, most asians believe in reincarnation or a rebirth of a soul what ever phrase you wish to use. But most Buddhists dont really know it that well. They are highly influenced by the Hindu culture and they believe in Atman or Atta. They dont know any better. Nevertheless, the English word should not really matter. What should really matter is what you associate with it based on the teachings in the Tipitaka. The same soul being born again and again is a concept people believe in due to predominantly the Buddhas past life stories, or the Jataka. Even some of the Nidhana stories of some of the statements like the "Veren vera" in "hatred does not solve/subdue hatred.........." the nidhana story comes from the Kali Goddess who was the last birth of a scorned woman then meets the Buddha. So these stories are not really scripture, it is the Nidhana stories or the foundational/buried treasure stories. Simply put, background stories. Its very memorable. Nice story. That will not necessarily mean this is scripture.

Martin · Sep 17, 2021

firedragon said:
Pati Sandhi? You mean scripture? Its not scriptural for such elaboration. It is a school of thought.

But if what you are looking for is Buddhist scripture, I dont know much of the Mahayana literature. I can give you direct reference to the Prathama Mahanama Suttan in the Samyuktha Nikhaaya. It will not use the word Patisandhi, but the concept is inferred from this.

I think it's Abhidhamma or Visudhimagga.

Reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism.

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