Questions And/Or Misunderstandings.

esmith · Sep 16, 2021

sun rise said:
And the unwillingness of Trump supporters to consider his role in what happened.

So you are now giving President Trump the credit for setting the wheels in motion to extract our military from Afghanistan.
Now all you have to admit is that the plan the Biden administration came up with was flawed.
Glad to see you are strarting to come out of the dark side.

Augustus · Sep 16, 2021

esmith said:
There is an old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" says it all about the majority of Biden supporters.

Plenty of people have criticised him in this thread.

On the other hand, you seem to think Trump blameless and insist he would have held Afghanistan against the Taliban offensive and ISIS terror attacks with 2500 troops while conducting an orderly withdrawal and sustaining zero casualties...

Imagine what he could have achieved with the 100,000 troops who used to be stationed there.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them think.

sun rise · Sep 16, 2021

esmith said:
So you are now giving President Trump the credit for setting the wheels in motion to extract our military from Afghanistan.
Now all you have to admit is that the plan the Biden administration came up with was flawed.
Glad to see you are strarting to come out of the dark side.

How to twist my post.

Biden did the best he could with the reality that 20 years of failure had preceded him. But to some Biden is totally wrong even if the situation was crazy and no better alternative existed.

Trump was right about a VERY few things and utterly and totally anti-American anti-freedom anti-liberty about many many many things.

By the way, I'm not waiting for you or others on the right here to say ANYTHING good about Biden or anything bad about Trump.

esmith · Sep 17, 2021

sun rise said:
How to twist my post.

Biden did the best he could with the reality that 20 years of failure had preceded him. But to some Biden is totally wrong even if the situation was crazy and no better alternative existed.

Trump was right about a VERY few things and utterly and totally anti-American anti-freedom anti-liberty about many many many things.

By the way, I'm not waiting for you or others on the right here to say ANYTHING good about Biden or anything bad about Trump.

What....
You said, and I quote :
"And the unwillingness of Trump supporters to consider his role in what happened."
No, I am willing to consider that President Trump was planning to withdraw all troops from Afghanist if he was re-elected. Which he wasn/t.
I will say something positive about President Biden if and when he does something right.
Given that I will give him credit for withdrawing the U.S. military from Afghanstain; however the plan he put in place was a total cluster ******.
That is the only thing that President Biden has even come close to being right about.

To your point: "By the way, I'm not waiting for you or others on the right here to say ANYTHING good about Biden or anything bad about Trump"
When did you or others on the left have anything good to say about President Trump.

Kooky · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
So you are now giving President Trump the credit for setting the wheels in motion to extract our military from Afghanistan.

I am definitely giving him credit for it, including for what happened when the US did pull out after all that happened.

But I recognize that it must be painful for Trump supporters to disagree with the new party line that the withdrawal was bad and shouldn't have happened but simultaneously believing that Trump's idea was sound.

In this light, it's understandable why they contort themselves rhetorically so they a) don't have to criticize Trump, and b) don't have to credit Biden for anything they would approve of.

esmith · Sep 17, 2021

Kooky said:
I am definitely giving him credit for it, including what happened when the US did pull out after all that happened.

So, what in your mind did President Trump have to do with the plan that President Biden put in place. Be specific....I know that is hard for you but at least try.

Kooky · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
I will say something positive about President Biden if and when he does something right.

No, you won't. And you can hold me by that prediction if you like.

Kooky · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
So, what in your mind did President Trump have to do with the plan that President Biden put in place. Be specific....I know that is hard for you but at least try.

A POTUS doesn't do such planning by himself - they have people to do that for them, and these people generally do not change when Presidents move out of office, barring some major administrative upheaval which very much did not happen in the US military after Biden took office.

Those plans were drafted, drawn up, and implemented by the US military. And I find it highly unlikely that military bureaucrats would just throw away months of effort and planning just because a new guy moved into the White House. Would you find that plausible?

Or do you actually believe any US President would not only personally draft a redeployment plan for thousands of troops, vehicles and heavy equipment, but then throw it in the bin the minute they were out of office?

If anybody screwed up here, it was your military leadership and staff, for assuming that a puppet government that was only kept alive with massive US military support wouldn't immediately fold after the US announced it would withdraw completely.

tytlyf · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
So, what in your mind did President Trump have to do with the plan that President Biden put in place. Be specific....I know that is hard for you but at least try.

Where did the plan change outside of moving the date?

esmith · Sep 17, 2021

Kooky said:
A POTUS doesn't do such planning by himself - they have people to do that for them, and these people generally do not change when Presidents move out of office, barring some major administrative upheaval which very much did not happen in the US military after Biden took office.

Yes, the military has plans for just about any situation that would involve the military.
Now to your below statement

Kooky said:
Those plans were drafted, drawn up, and implemented by the US military. And I find it highly unlikely that military bureaucrats would just throw away months of effort and planning just because a new guy moved into the White House. Would you find that plausible?

The President sets the parameters that must be followed. If he doesn't like any of the plans presented all he or she has to do is reject them and give them the constrants that must be meant. Obviously you have no idea what those constraints were, thus you are completly out of line with you obvious assumptions.

Kooky said:
Or do you actually believe any US President would not only personally draft a redeployment plan for thousands of troops, vehicles and heavy equipment, but then throw it in the bin the minute they were out of office?

No, the President has no idea how to devise such a plan. He or she, tells the military what he or she wants and gives them a basic idea. It is up to the military to come up with a plan that meets the Presidents approval.

Kooky said:
If anybody screwed up here, it was your military leadership and staff, for assuming that a puppet government that was only kept alive with massive US military support wouldn't immediately fold after the US announced it would withdraw completely.

I agree that the military, along with the intelligence service, and the administration failed. However, there were probably those within those orginazition that warned their superiors that things would go to hell in a handbasket but were ignored.

ecco · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
When did you or others on the left have anything good to say about President Trump.

We have!
We complimented him on grabbing pussies.
We complimented him on 30,000 lies.
We complimented him on whining in 2015 about losing a rigged election.
We complimented him pushing election officials to "find" votes for him.
We complimented him for pressuring Pence to overthrow the results of the election.
We complimented him calling for an insurrection.
We complimented him for calling the insurrectionists lovable, peaceful "patriots".

Oh, wait...that wasn't us. Sorry! Please disregard the above.

esmith · Sep 17, 2021

ecco said:
We have!
We complimented him on grabbing pussies.
We complimented him on 30,000 lies.
We complimented him on whining in 2015 about losing a rigged election.
We complimented him pushing election officials to "find" votes for him.
We complimented him for pressuring Pence to overthrow the results of the election.
We complimented him calling for an insurrection.
We complimented him for calling the insurrectionists lovable, peaceful "patriots".

Oh, wait...that wasn't us. Sorry! Please disregard the above.

Troll much?

Twilight Hue · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
Well, I can see no one is willing or able to explain why the Biden administration is blaming the previous administration. See Sec of State comments in post #1

It's to distract from these bumbling idiots sheer incompetence as leaders of this country.

It's just easier for the left to blame the other guy because they cannot think for themselves much less own up to their unbroken chain of poorly thought out and disastrous decisions.

Twilight Hue · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
There is an old saying "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink" says it all about the majority of Biden supporters.

I think a horse ought to be in charge then letting these people do anything right for a change.

Augustus · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
So, what in your mind did President Trump have to do with the plan that President Biden put in place. Be specific....I know that is hard for you but at least try.

Still waiting for you to be specific about how Trump would have held Afghanistan and conducted an 'orderly withdrawal' in the face of Taliban/ISIS attacks with the 2500 troops he left in the country.

I know that is hard for you but at least try...

Subduction Zone · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
Maybe there are those on this forum that can explain the question and/or misunderstanding I have concerning what I consider a "Chinese Fire Drill" our withdrawl from Afghanistan.
Secretary of State Blinken before the House Foreign Affairs Committee said:
“We inherited a deadline. We did not inherit a plan,”

Now here are my questions and/or misuderstandings.
1. To "we inherited a deadline".
Fact: President Trump negotiated a withdrawl agreement, with conditions, with theTailiban that we leave Afghanstain by May 1st , 2021
Fact: President Biden extended this deadline to Sept 11th (actually withdrew Aug 31st)
My questions and/or misunderstanding:
a. If the Biden administration inherited a deadline why did the extend it to Sept 11th and then blame the previous administration for a deadline they didn't keep?
b. If they did not keep the origianl deadline, could they not say we will leave when we get everyone out?
c. Is a agreement with a Preident dealing with a foreign policy without Congressional approval binding to the following President?

2. To "we did not inherit a plan"
So the previous administration did not promulgate a plan for withdrawal.
a. If Predident Trump had been reelected could they not draw up a plan within 3 months to insure that the withdrawl was conducted in a orderly manner?
b. Even if the previous administration had promulated a plan would the Biden administration gone by that plan? Probably not since they have done away with the majority of policies set forth by the Trump administation
c. Now the Biden administration had over 7 months tp come up with a plan and what they came up with was basically a Chinese fire drill.

So does anyone want to logically answer my questions and or misunderstandings?

Incorrect. You are being overly literalistic when it comes to the agreement. There was no hard date in that agreement. There was an "aim". When your aim is to get out by May 1st that is not written in stone..

And yes, Biden inherited at least part of a plan. In fact most of it. Trump had withdrawn most of the troops before Biden took office. There were only 2,500 troops left when Biden took office. Since there were over 8,000 when Trump began his withdrawal it appears that this is more a Trump issue than a Biden one. There was not much that 2,500 troops could have done in the first place:

Withdrawal of the United States troops from Afghanistan (2020–2021) - Wikipedia

sun rise · Sep 17, 2021

esmith said:
When did you or others on the left have anything good to say about President Trump.

I did on a few rare occasions here on RF. Clearly you missed those times.

Friend of Mara · Sep 23, 2021

esmith said:
Maybe there are those on this forum that can explain the question and/or misunderstanding I have concerning what I consider a "Chinese Fire Drill" our withdrawl from Afghanistan.
Secretary of State Blinken before the House Foreign Affairs Committee said:
“We inherited a deadline. We did not inherit a plan,”

Now here are my questions and/or misuderstandings.
1. To "we inherited a deadline".
Fact: President Trump negotiated a withdrawl agreement, with conditions, with theTailiban that we leave Afghanstain by May 1st , 2021
Fact: President Biden extended this deadline to Sept 11th (actually withdrew Aug 31st)
My questions and/or misunderstanding:
a. If the Biden administration inherited a deadline why did the extend it to Sept 11th and then blame the previous administration for a deadline they didn't keep?
b. If they did not keep the origianl deadline, could they not say we will leave when we get everyone out?
c. Is a agreement with a Preident dealing with a foreign policy without Congressional approval binding to the following President?

2. To "we did not inherit a plan"
So the previous administration did not promulgate a plan for withdrawal.
a. If Predident Trump had been reelected could they not draw up a plan within 3 months to insure that the withdrawl was conducted in a orderly manner?
b. Even if the previous administration had promulated a plan would the Biden administration gone by that plan? Probably not since they have done away with the majority of policies set forth by the Trump administation
c. Now the Biden administration had over 7 months tp come up with a plan and what they came up with was basically a Chinese fire drill.

So does anyone want to logically answer my questions and or misunderstandings?

Getting out of Afghanistan seems like it would be doomed from the start. What I'm more curious about is why conservatives are so mad about it when its exactly what Trump was claiming to do. If this exact scenario had happened under Trump (which seems likely) not a single voice would have been spoken in protest.

esmith · Sep 24, 2021

Friend of Mara said:
Getting out of Afghanistan seems like it would be doomed from the start. What I'm more curious about is why conservatives are so mad about it when its exactly what Trump was claiming to do. If this exact scenario had happened under Trump (which seems likely) not a single voice would have been spoken in protest.

Why do you suppose it would have been doomed from the start?
The majority of conservatives are not mad about the witdrawal, just in the manner that it was done.
What makes you think that the previous administation would have handled the withdrawal in the same manner?
If the previous adminstration had handled the withdrawal in the same manner I'm sure that they, the administration, would be lambasted about it and the Dems would have been clamoring for impeachment.

Friend of Mara · Sep 24, 2021

esmith said:
Why do you suppose it would have been doomed from the start?
The majority of conservatives are not mad about the witdrawal, just in the manner that it was done.
What makes you think that the previous administation would have handled the withdrawal in the same manner?
If the previous adminstration had handled the withdrawal in the same manner I'm sure that they, the administration, would be lambasted about it and the Dems would have been clamoring for impeachment.

What would Trump have done differently?

There are two major issues and neither of them are controlled by the president per-se. The first is that the Afgan army was gonna fold because of internal corruption that has been there for nearly 20 years. Pullout by either president would have seen the same collapse to the Taliban. The second issue is that either they didn't know that it would happen that quickly OR they did know and the military wouldn't admit it. Also not something the president would have been able to change.

If the Afgan army had stayed strong for at least the months that was predicted the pullout wouldn't have been an issue.

Questions And/Or Misunderstandings.

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