Choose to Believe?

halbhh said:

I tend to pray for something else when the situation is desperate or extreme, and I cannot fix it on my own.

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Great. So, let me ask again. Suppose you need to fix your car and the only way to do that is by using a certain kind of tool. Suppose further that you only have two options: 1 tool that works 98% of time (call it X) and one that only works 0,5% of the time (call it Y).

Now, you said before that we have to believe on the basis of faith ("a leap of faith") because it is always possible that the car won't start or that the light won't turn on. And you're right that it is always possible; it is possible that tool X won't work and it is possible that Y will. So, my question is the following: since you only need faith in your worldview, would you choose X or Y? Why?

It can't get any clearer than that.

Polymath257 said:

Is it possible to 'choose to believe' something?

In other words, is belief a choice? or are you simply convinced/unconvinced by what you have learned so far?

Also, it is certainly possible to act 'as if' something is true. But is that the same as belief? Or merely a provisional assumption until more evidence is found?

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Belief is ultimately a choice. We all have different doubts and we all have evidence that can lead us in different directions depending on what we choose to believe.

Wildswanderer said:

Belief is ultimately a choice. We all have different doubts and we all have evidence that can lead us in different directions depending on what we choose to believe.

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That isn't my experience. I don't 'choose' to believe. Either I am convinced by the evidence and arguments or I am not. I may determine that one idea is the best available at the time, subject to revision if more information comes along. I am also quite happy saying "I don't have enough evidence yet to decide".

I don't even know what it would be like to 'choose to believe'.

Φᅠᅠ said:

Great. So, let me ask again. Suppose you need to fix your car and the only way to do that is by using a certain kind of tool. Suppose further that you only have two options: 1 tool that works 98% of time (call it X) and one that only works 0,5% of the time (call it Y).

Now, you said before that we have to believe on the basis of faith ("a leap of faith") because it is always possible that the car won't start or that the light won't turn on. And you're right that it is always possible; it is possible that tool X won't work and it is possible that Y will. So, my question is the following: since you only need faith in your worldview, would you choose X or Y? Why?

It can't get any clearer than that.

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My worldview?

Would you like to ask me what I think about something, instead of assigning a view to me on your own? If you do ask more neutral and friendly questions, I will be happy to answer.

I'll even give this one a shot, despite the mistaken idea about my exact beliefs. In real life, I try to fix my own car, and often it's something not hard like a new battery or new alternator, and I can do it.

Here's a different scenario: what the car won't start and it's an emergency?

That's a much better example for me in particular. Then I'd pray. I also don't criticize others for praying about more things than me. I don't think they should pray less, or even that I should necessarily pray more than what I do on most days, the Lord's Prayer. Some days are different than others. People have different situations; even every day is unique also.

halbhh said:

My worldview?

Would you like to ask me what I think about something, instead of assigning a view to me on your own? If you do ask more neutral and friendly questions, I will be happy to answer.

I'll even give this one a shot, despite the mistaken idea about my exact beliefs. In real life, I try to fix my own car, and often it's something not hard like a new battery or new alternator, and I can do it.

Here's a different scenario: what the car won't start and it's an emergency?

That's a much better example for me in particular. Then I'd pray. I also don't criticize others for praying about more things than me. I don't think they should pray less, or even that I should necessarily pray more than what I do on most days, the Lord's Prayer. Some days are different than others. People have different situations; even every day is unique also.

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Are you going to respond to my question or not?

Φᅠᅠ said:

Are you going to respond to my question or not?

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Christ is the one who has the answers, really.

Polymath257 said:

That isn't my experience. I don't 'choose' to believe. Either I am convinced by the evidence and arguments or I am not. I may determine that one idea is the best available at the time, subject to revision if more information comes along. I am also quite happy saying "I don't have enough evidence yet to decide".

I don't even know what it would be like to 'choose to believe'.

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^^^ This.

halbhh said:

Christ is the one who has the answers, really.

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According to your beliefs. Now, why should anyone believe that?

halbhh said:

My worldview?

Would you like to ask me what I think about something, instead of assigning a view to me on your own? If you do ask more neutral and friendly questions, I will be happy to answer.

I'll even give this one a shot, despite the mistaken idea about my exact beliefs. In real life, I try to fix my own car, and often it's something not hard like a new battery or new alternator, and I can do it.

Here's a different scenario: what the car won't start and it's an emergency?

That's a much better example for me in particular. Then I'd pray. I also don't criticize others for praying about more things than me. I don't think they should pray less, or even that I should necessarily pray more than what I do on most days, the Lord's Prayer. Some days are different than others. People have different situations; even every day is unique also.

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And do you think the prayer does anything more than steady your mind?

My wife has a phrase 'pray in one hand, and **** in the other. See which fills up faster'.

Polymath257 said:

According to your beliefs. Now, why should anyone believe that?

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Why should anyone else believe anything? If you ask me, I say by testing that something.

It would be really wonderful if people would test their own theories and viewpoints, trying to disprove them. While I have and do, I know most people don't. Most seem to be more concerned about supporting their preferred ideology than trying to winnow it down by eliminating things.

Polymath257 said:

And do you think the prayer does anything more than steady your mind?

My wife has a phrase 'pray in one hand, and **** in the other. See which fills up faster'.

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I would not think prayer does much if I'd not had extremely unlikely things happen, I think.

It's one thing to fall off a 2nd story roof above large rocks and wake up a few seconds later without any bruises at all, and no sensation of impact aftereffects.

You could call that 'very lucky' right?

But if it happens to coincide perfectly in the same few seconds that a person prayed, for a person that very rarely prays (even only a couple of times in a decade)....then the perfect coincidence is interesting, because you have 2 very rare events coinciding perfectly in time. One has to wonder if there is a connection.

But, for me, one such instance isn't proof of anything. I didn't believe because of that. I continued to be agnostic. I wondered if I had some wild gymnastic ability even. (I don't think I do)

But I'm not dead in terms of inquisitiveness. So, I got curious.

When another such extremely lucky outcome happened and again coinciding exactly in time with a prayer when I still did not pray often, then I noted that extremely unlikely co-inciding also. (and the outcome was even more remarkable really than the event above)

So, after that, I started trying harder to understand more of what Christ taught, since this is His stuff, which He knows more about than you or me.

halbhh said:

Why should anyone else believe anything? If you ask me, I say by testing that something.

It would be really wonderful if people would test their own theories and viewpoints, trying to disprove them. While I have and do, I know most people don't. Most seem to be more concerned about supporting their preferred ideology than trying to winnow it down by eliminating things.

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The consideration here is that we can al draw different conclusions based on the material they are testing.

It comes down to nature and nurture and our willingness to expand on current frames of references.

So if my search has determined that a Message given by a persons, who were known as the Bab and Baha'u'llah, have indeed fill all prophecy from the past Holy Books, then how is it everyone that has heard of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are yet to draw that same conclusion?

Truth is thus relative to our given frames of reference.

Regards Tony

Polymath257 said:

And do you think the prayer does anything more than steady your mind?

My wife has a phrase 'pray in one hand, and **** in the other. See which fills up faster'.

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I know which one is healthier to mind and body, so I choose the healthy option.

Regards Tony