Reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism.

ben d said:

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims. I mean it must follow a process analogous to the education system, where students are not all in the same class in any one year, but are on different levels based on how many years they have attended school (and presumably have learnt the lessons successfully for that class), so likewise, every reincarnation must bring the pilgrim closer to their last, but at any given time, there are those beginning their first incarnation, and those on their last reincarnation.

So my question is, how many 'grades' or 'levels' are there from first incarnation to last reincarnation. I am not asking how many reincarnations altogether, just how many stages are there to freedom from returning to physical life? I do realize that, as in the school system, there are failures every grade year, and thus they must repeat the grade, so the number of reincarnations will be more than the levels representing the first incarnation to the last.

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As a believer, I would say the soul has the spectrum from novice ignorance to old wisdom along which it develops. Development can occur in different ways due to the vast opportunities in a diverse universe.

SalixIncendium said:

Not this one.

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All is Brahman?

Mirrors upon Mirrors?

"Several classical authors say that the Druids taught the transmigration of souls. In that doctrine of reincarnation, spirits may be reborn into any of nature's forms - human, animal, or even inanimate things. That doctrine is supported by evidence from the tales. We find humans becoming pools of water, their own descendants, or sacred animals. Fintan, last survivor of the first folk, lived successive lives as a man, a stag, and an eagle. The two great Bulls of Erin, the Brown and the White, began their existence as a pair of swineherders and underwent rebirth until they reached their exalted state as sacred bulls. In Welsh tales, the wizard Gwydion undergoes a series of animals lives, and the Irish tale of Edain depicts transformations or rebirths in human, insect, ant inanimate forms.

If we assume that these tales reflect a doctrine of the fate of souls, then we might conclude that human spirits can be reborn, and into non-human as well as human forms. A non- human rebirth was clearly not always a punishment. Rebirth as an animal could involve increase in honor or spiritual authority. Mortal humanity was only one of the many kinds of beings who kept the World Order whole."

The Afterlife, The Heroes, and The Dead | ADF: Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship

firedragon said:

8.4 million times means with an average of 1 year for each life its 8.4 million years. At that time in comparison to today life on earth would have been Gorillas and of course other organisms. So those alive today must have been some form or the other at that time. The numbers don't add up. I dont know what kind of assumptions we have t make for 7 billion humans today.

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In Meher Baba's cosmology, there are 18,000 worlds in the universe with "human" intelligent life. Souls migrate from other worlds to be born on Earth at some point in their development.

Also, the lifespan of Brahma in the Hindu system is 311.04 trillion years, longer than the age of this universe.

So there's plenty of time and plenty of places to have human-level intelligence.

Aupmanyav said:

You are talking about reincarnations and stages before one gets enlightened. These who are very different things and there is no connection between them. Reincarnation or change in form does not entitled you for enlightenment. And enlightenment is just one step. Either you know or you don't know. It is not true that it will come after many reincarnations. One does not reincarnate as a whole. One atoms of your body may go to Arctic and other to Antartic after death and disintegration. Your atoms reincarnate as part of different forms.

As for enlightenment. It can come in five minutes or it can take 50 years. To Buddha it came suddenly, when he was sitting under the tree ruminating about his failure to reach his goal. It is a Eureka moment. It happened the same way to me and everything became clear some 35 years ago. Like any other exam it requires prior study. You must have a fair understanding of some 25 subjects and worldly experience. That takes time.Kindly do not generalize and misinform about Hinduism. Your statement is very nebulous.

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Goodness me, if the Jivatma does not learn and correct errors from mistaking maya for reality in order to lesson karmic suffering in each incarnations, what is the purpose of reincarnation. Eventually enlightenment is realized through the correcting of errors of misunderstanding reality, that is the whole purpose of evolution,

This is a simple but appropriate way to describe the salient nature of, and purpose of reincarnation.

I died as a mineral and became a plant;
I died as a plant and rose to animal;
I died as an animal and I was a man.
Why should I fear?
When was I less by dying?
Yet once more I shall die as man to soar...
With angels blest.
But even from an angel I must pass on:
All except God must perish.
When I have sacrificed my angel soul,
I shall become what no mind ever conceived.

-Jalaluddin Rumi

firedragon said:

This question I believe is not answerable.

For example, the Buddha, before becoming the Buddha, as the Bodhisatva, had a Kalpalaksha. That means a 100,000 lives.

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Perhaps, I've heard 9 is the maximum number of reincarnations for the human kingdom, every soul makes it by the 9th, there is no Hell as in eternal damnation. Of course I am familiar with the idea of thousands plus number as well. Personally based on my own spiritual journey in this life, and through the observation of others, I am inclined towards the 9 lives, as in a cat.

sun rise said:

Going back to the OP question, Meher Baba said the developing soul has millions of forms before the human form and is reborn/reincarnated 8,400,000 times before entering the spiritual path.

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Perhaps, who knows the exact number?

God sleeps in the rock,
Dreams in the plant,
Stirs in the animal,
And Awakens in Man.

Al Arabi

ben d said:

Goodness me, if the Jivatma does not learn and correct errors from mistaking maya for reality in order to lesson karmic suffering in each incarnations, what is the purpose of reincarnation. Eventually enlightenment is realized through the correcting of errors of misunderstanding reality, that is the whole purpose of evolution,

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I am an atheist, I do not believe in existence of 'atma', or in rebirth-reincarnation. Enlightenment is by abandoning prejudices and accepting only what has evidence.

sun rise said:

In Meher Baba's cosmology, there are 18,000 worlds in the universe with "human" intelligent life. Souls migrate from other worlds to be born on Earth at some point in their development.

Also, the lifespan of Brahma in the Hindu system is 311.04 trillion years, longer than the age of this universe.

So there's plenty of time and plenty of places to have human-level intelligence.

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Hmm. Okay. Thats a good enough answer which I cannot refute. Thanks for the information.

ben d said:

Perhaps, I've heard 9 is the maximum number of reincarnations for the human kingdom, every soul makes it by the 9th, there is no Hell as in eternal damnation. Of course I am familiar with the idea of thousands plus number as well. Personally based on my own spiritual journey in this life, and through the observation of others, I am inclined towards the 9 lives, as in a cat.

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Honestly I have never heard that from the perspective of Buddhism. If you dont mind please give me an idea what scripture or teaching or story of the Buddha that speaks on the 9 lives. Thank you in advance.

My und

Aupmanyav said:

I am an atheist, I do not believe in existence of 'atma', or in rebirth-reincarnation. Enlightenment is by abandoning prejudices and accepting only what has evidence.

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You believe in Atheism, I hope it helps you.

firedragon said:

Honestly I have never heard that from the perspective of Buddhism. If you dont mind please give me an idea what scripture or teaching or story of the Buddha that speaks on the 9 lives. Thank you in advance.

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I mentioned it upthread somewhere, I first came across it in a tourist brochure when I was visiting the Borobudur Temple in Java. The actual temple consists of 9 levels in a pyramid shape with stupas around each level except the huge top one. So the explanation as I recall was, the open stupas enclosing buddhas around each level represent incarnations, As you get to the top or higher levels, less buddhas, The huge top stupa is closed and when excavated, nothing was inside, so aspirant buddhas attain to Nirvana on the 9th incarnation, according to the brochure. Btw, later I also met a religious mystic, not a buddhist, who told me that 9 reincarnations are the maximum any soul can have before enlightenment, no hell exists. And fwiw, he told me I was on my 4th life.

ben d said:

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims. I mean it must follow a process analogous to the education system, where students are not all in the same class in any one year, but are on different levels based on how many years they have attended school (and presumably have learnt the lessons successfully for that class), so likewise, every reincarnation must bring the pilgrim closer to their last, but at any given time, there are those beginning their first incarnation, and those on their last reincarnation.

So my question is, how many 'grades' or 'levels' are there from first incarnation to last reincarnation. I am not asking how many reincarnations altogether, just how many stages are there to freedom from returning to physical life? I do realize that, as in the school system, there are failures every grade year, and thus they must repeat the grade, so the number of reincarnations will be more than the levels representing the first incarnation to the last.

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The monotheistic Prajapita Brahmakumaris states that a soul may take births ranging from a mere 1 to 84. The more births the soul takes , the more ignorant it becomes of its divine nature and embedded in materialistic characteristics of the world with numerous desires, cravings and aversions manifesting as the five vices of lust, anger, greed, egoism, attachment . They state that the soul was originally pure and in the highest state of sattva, but with repeated rebirths go through the phases of rajas and lowest state of tamas . Sattva, rajas and tamas are considered to be the three qualities inherent in nature in varying levels.

A Complete Guide to The Three Gunas of Nature | Arhanta Yoga Blog

In other sects of Hinduism, a soul may take births ranging to around 8.4 million reincarnations.

Sikhism also states that around 8.4 million reincarnations are there, as per their holy scripture, the Guru Granth Sahib.

'Those who do not serve the True Guru [God] and who do not contemplate the Word of the Shabad - spiritual wisdom does not enter into their hearts; they are like dead bodies in the world. They go through the cycle of 8.4 million reincarnations, and they are ruined through death and rebirth.' ~ Guru Granth Sahib 88

ben d said:

I mentioned it upthread somewhere, I first came across it in a tourist brochure when I was visiting the Borobudur Temple in Java. The actual temple consists of 9 levels in a pyramid shape with stupas around each level except the huge top one. So the explanation as I recall was, the open stupas enclosing buddhas around each level represent incarnations, As you get to the top or higher levels, less buddhas, The huge top stupa is closed and when excavated, nothing was inside, so aspirant buddhas attain to Nirvana on the 9th incarnation, according to the brochure. Btw, later I also met a religious mystic, not a buddhist, who told me that 9 reincarnations are the maximum any soul can have before enlightenment, no hell exists. And fwiw, he told me I was on my 4th life.

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Alright. So its personal experience.

Thanks.

ben d said:

I am interested in how reincarnation is understood by those who adhere to the belief. Obviously there must be some average number of incarnations from the first incarnation to the last for spiritual pilgrims. I mean it must follow a process analogous to the education system, where students are not all in the same class in any one year, but are on different levels based on how many years they have attended school (and presumably have learnt the lessons successfully for that class), so likewise, every reincarnation must bring the pilgrim closer to their last, but at any given time, there are those beginning their first incarnation, and those on their last reincarnation.

So my question is, how many 'grades' or 'levels' are there from first incarnation to last reincarnation. I am not asking how many reincarnations altogether, just how many stages are there to freedom from returning to physical life? I do realize that, as in the school system, there are failures every grade year, and thus they must repeat the grade, so the number of reincarnations will be more than the levels representing the first incarnation to the last.

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Lemme stop you for a second.

The Buddhists don't actually have reincarnation. They have rebirth. They compare it to lighting a candle with a flame of the old one. The old one burns out and is gone. The new candle is not really the same wax or the same wick. The end goal is "snuffing", making the cycle of rebirth end. Buddhists do not believe in past lives or reincarnation.

As a syncretic type, I have realized that the Bible doesn't say anything about hell, but of burning up during end times. In other words, those who don't make the cut lose their self, and everything that could be called "them" is burned away. Does a sort of rebirth happen after this in Christianity? Who knows? But it's not really relevant because there's nothing of your memory left. Likewise, with Buddhism, there is no concept of what you were before, as what you were is nuked, this is a new self.

Difference between Hindu & Buddhist Idea of Reincarnation | Difference Between

Samantha Rinne said:

Buddhists do not believe in past lives or reincarnation.

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I agree mostly with your post, but disagree with the 'past lives' one.

Buddha's past lives are often discussed and I know of many Buddhists talking or writing about the matter of past lives.

Rebirth (Buddhism) - Wikipedia

The Buddha himself is depicted has having developed the ability to recollect his past lives as well as to access the past life memories of other conscious beings in texts like the Bhayabherava Sutta (MN 4, the parallel Agama text is at Ekottara Agama 31.1) and the Mahapadana Sutta (DN 14, parallel at DA 1).

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Tibetan Lamas travel across the world in search of their lama brethren who had died and reincarnated as children in different nations, religions and cultures.

Tulku - Wikipedia

https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/articles/tibetan-lamas-reincarnated-west

U.S. Woman Is Named Reborn Buddhist Saint (Published 1988)

Samantha Rinne said:

Lemme stop you for a second.

The Buddhists don't actually have reincarnation. They have rebirth. They compare it to lighting a candle with a flame of the old one. The old one burns out and is gone. The new candle is not really the same wax or the same wick. The end goal is "snuffing", making the cycle of rebirth end. Buddhists do not believe in past lives or reincarnation.

As a syncretic type, I have realized that the Bible doesn't say anything about hell, but of burning up during end times. In other words, those who don't make the cut lose their self, and everything that could be called "them" is burned away. Does a sort of rebirth happen after this in Christianity? Who knows? But it's not really relevant because there's nothing of your memory left. Likewise, with Buddhism, there is no concept of what you were before, as what you were is nuked, this is a new self.

Difference between Hindu & Buddhist Idea of Reincarnation | Difference Between

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I prefer to call it reincarnation because I like the explanation of a soul, Buddhists don't believe in the soul even though I believe they have one. Though if you are a Buddhist, calling that which transmigrates "a conglomeration of phenomena that constitute the “self” " is ok by me also.

ben d said:

You believe in Atheism, I hope it helps you.

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Yeah, it does. I have no unanswered questions.

firedragon said:

What do you think are Parinirvana and punarjeevana?

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Punarjivana is rebirth/reincarnation. It also means resurrection, like the patient got a new life in the hospital.

As for nirvana, parinirvana, or pari-parinirvana (para is ultimate). So simple nirvana, the ultimate nirvana and the ultimatest nirvana. This is theist word-play. A puzzle is created out of which none can get out. Similarly Brahman, ParaBrahman and ParaparaBrahman. That is "How to make simple things complicated and to be seen as profound".

"It's My Birthday!"
I never asked the forum to show the date. How come it is all over?
Is it something monumental? Should it be a public holiday? Haha again

Tattooed message on my shoulder for medical students who will dissect my body after my death. Death does not mean that one abandons fun.

Hi Guys!
Aup. here.

Aupmanyav said:

"It's My Birthday!"
I never asked the forum to show the date. How come it is all over?
Is it something monumental? Should it be a public holiday? Haha again

Tattooed message on my shoulder for medical students who will dissect my body after my death. Death does not mean that one abandons fun.

Hi Guys!
Aup. here.

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Happy Birthday Aup , or I should say happy birthday anniversary. I don't know why it's shortened like that, we only have one birthday in our life. In your case it was the only one you will ever have, maybe, maybe not. .