Jesus as Christ

Subduction Zone · Sep 14, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
The Scriptures support themselves, God makes the rules and determines the burden of proof, the requirements and He has done that.
Just because you or anyone else makes different rules doesn’t mean much, you can ask for this or that proof or evidence but doesn’t mean anything because it’s just your own personal set of criteria, just not mine or God’s.

No, the Bible is largely self contradictory. This site illustrates that fact:

BibViz Project - Bible Contradictions, Misogyny, Violence, Inaccuracies interactively visualized

One needs to do more than make unsupported and easily refutable claims if one is going to use the Bible.

Redemptionsong · Sep 14, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Probably not. England is real, it is not named for King Arthur but he predates any actual King and in the mythos he is the King of all England.

You are conflating an origin myth with history. The Bible is not history. And it is always a loss when one tries to rely on a mythical character to support a myth. There is a consensus among scholars that Moses never existed.

The Bible contains the history of a people, Israel. Abraham was real, and so were his descendants. The evidence comes from an unbroken record held by the Jewish people in their sacred texts. You might also like to read the history of the Jews written by Flavius Josephus.

Where is the consensus amongst scholars that Moses never existed? All you can argue sensibly is that there is no archaeological evidence, at present, to support the documentary evidence. But even this is a weak argument, given that much has been discovered about life in Egypt and Midian from archaeology that supports the writings of the Torah. The documentary evidence is strong because it was not considered to be the work of man, but the work of YHWH, and was treated with a far greater reverence than the writings of any man.

Redemptionsong · Sep 14, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
Believers in the Bible will have different verses that they choose to believe. With all of the contradicting verses in the Bible almost any belief is possible.

The challenge should be easy. Show me the contradicting verses!

Trailblazer · Sep 14, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
If you accept the scripture that Christ Jesus was 'once offered to bear the sins of many' [Hebrews 9:28], then it follows that his second appearance will be 'without sin unto salvation'. If you believe that Baha'ullah's ministry was the second coming of the Messiah then you must believe you are saved. And do you not still expect Christ Jesus to return from heaven given that he ascended to heaven after resurrection?

Baha'is do not believe in 'saved' in the same way that Christians do because we do not believe in original sin, but we do believe that Jesus died for the sins and inequities of all of humanity that were inherited from Adam. So in that sense we believe we were saved by Jesus.

I believe that Jesus ascended to heaven but there is no reason to believe that Jesus will ever return from heaven since Jesus never promised to return to this world. In fact, Jesus said that He finished His work in this world and He would be no more in this world after He ascended to heaven.

John 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Subduction Zone · Sep 14, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The Bible contains the history of a people, Israel. Abraham was real, and so were his descendants. The evidence comes from an unbroken record held by the Jewish people in their sacred texts. You might also like to read the history of the Jews written by Flavius Josephus.

Where is the consensus amongst scholars that Moses never existed? All you can argue sensibly is that there is no archaeological evidence, at present, to support the documentary evidence. But even this is a weak argument, given that much has been discovered about life in Egypt and Midian from archaeology that supports the writings of the Torah. The documentary evidence is strong because it was not considered to be the work of man, but the work of YHWH, and was treated with a far greater reverence than the writings of any man.

No, it is not history. It may have some history, but it also has quite a bit of mythology. And counting the hits and ignoring the misses is not wise debate tactic. There is some support from archaeology, but there is also quite a bit of refutation.

Subduction Zone · Sep 14, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The challenge should be easy. Show me the contradicting verses!

BibViz Project - Bible Contradictions, Misogyny, Violence, Inaccuracies interactively visualized

Subduction Zone · Sep 14, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
The Scriptures support themselves, God makes the rules and determines the burden of proof, the requirements and He has done that.
Just because you or anyone else makes different rules doesn’t mean much, you can ask for this or that proof or evidence but doesn’t mean anything because it’s just your own personal set of criteria, just not mine or God’s.

They really do not. What believers tend to do is to pick and choose the verses that they like and think support their beliefs. They ignore those that contradict them. Do you want an easy example? The Bible can more easily be used to argue for slavery than against it, since the verses for slavery are much clearer than those against it.

ElishaElijah · Sep 14, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
They really do not. What believers tend to do is to pick and choose the verses that they like and think support their beliefs. They ignore those that contradict them. Do you want an easy example? The Bible can more easily be used to argue for slavery than against it, since the verses for slavery are much clearer than those against it.

Everyone is a slave to something or someone.

blü 2 · Sep 14, 2021

Redemptionsong said:
The first thing that I'm pleased to read in your post is that you accept the Tanakh as the word of God! This is an important starting point for meaningful conversation about the person of Jesus.

I apologize if I was unclear. The Tanakh was written by our fellow humans as they existed between two and three thousand years ago, without outside interference; nor do they ever claim otherwise. But the Tanakh is important as a cultural reference point and rule-book.

Redemptionsong said:
It's also important to acknowledge that, throughout the Tanakh, prophecies of the coming Messiah are found in 'type' (such as Abraham taking Isaac for sacrifice at Mount Moriah)

I read that as a test, not a prophecy.

The trouble with prophecies is that they're a form of magic, and the number of authenticated instances of magic remains obstinately at zero. As I think I said, they were however one of the instruments of politics available to the players in ancient times. They can also come in handy for dating things eg the Jesus of Mark foretells the sack of Jerusalem (Mark 13:2) , so we know Mark is written after 70 CE.

Redemptionsong said:
In King David, for example, we have 'David my servant' or reference to the Messiah [see Ezekiel 37:24]

David is adopted by God as [his] son (Psalm 2:7, Psalm 89:6). In Mark, Jesus becomes the son of God in exactly the same way.

Redemptionsong said:
You believe that followers of Jesus concocted the story of Jesus, by taking prophecies from the Tanakh and ascribing them to Jesus, without justification.

Yes, I think the evidence for that is very strong ─ and as I showed you regarding the author of Matthew, blatant and undeniable. The fact that the gospels can be accounted for in this way ─ and that all the supernatural stories are necessarily fictions ─ make it credible that there was no historical Jesus, though my own view is that this remains an open question.

Redemptionsong said:
I hold that this is an impossible position to sustain, because there are events in the life of Jesus, such as the birth and crucifixion, which cannot have been concocted by the design of Jesus' followers!

The only credible story of the birth of Jesus is the one in Mark, where he's just an ordinary Jew (until. we're told, the heavens open and God adopts him as [his] son). As I've also previously mentioned, the Jesus of Paul and the Jesus of John pre-existed in heaven with God and created the material universe, and the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke are the products of divine insemination. Five Jesuses, three origins, only one credible origin.

Redemptionsong said:
Yet, these events are prophesied in scripture.

, No, parts of scripture are taken by the gospel authors to be "prophecies" of Jesus, and the stories of Jesus get written to fit ─ the examples I gave you from Matthew are both outrageous and unambiguous.

Redemptionsong said:
You ask why it is that the Jews have suffered for two thousand years

No, I ask why their own God would do this [his] own "Chosen People" ─ since the morality of it would be altogether vile, not to say absurd.

Redemptionsong said:
What is still more remarkable, is that Moses goes on to say 'That then [following repentance amongst Jews] the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.'

What is this, if not prophecy about the nation of Israel over a period of two thousand years?

A political slogan used by Zionists from the latter 19th century to the founding of Israel. Ancient possession is capable of being a powerful psychological tool for the dispossessed.

blü 2 · Sep 14, 2021

Trailblazer said:
Yes I would, but that does not mean that the Messiah was who Jews believe He will be. Conceptions do not equate to reality.

That the Messiah will be a a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, anointed by the priesthood is only a Jewish expectation, according to their interpretation of their Scriptures. I do not believe that the Messiah was ever slated to be any such person and I believe they are way out in left field. I believe that Jesus was 'a Messiah' but Jesus was never slated to be 'the Messiah of the latter days' because Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies that Jews are expecting to be fulfilled.

I believe that Messiah that the Jews have long awaited was Baha'u'llah. I believe that the Messiah of the latter days came to redeem all of humanity, not just the Jews, and all the messianic prophecies have been or will be fulfilled during the messianic age which began in 1852 AD and will last at least 1000 years.

If that's what you believe, don't let me stand in your way.

But as you know, I think it's untenable.

Subduction Zone · Sep 14, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
Everyone is a slave to something or someone.

That is a terrible excuse for immorality. But, I accept your admission of defeat.

ElishaElijah · Sep 14, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
That is a terrible excuse for immorality. But, I accept your admission of defeat.

Just an observation not an excuse, you really are in the dark on things. As far as moral or immoral, you have your own set of rules there too. You said pornography is not immoral and if someone says it is they are immoral, so that’s backwards but that’s what you go with, making excuses for your sin. But nonetheless you’re a slave to it.

Subduction Zone · Sep 14, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
Just an observation not an excuse, you really are in the dark on things. As far as moral or immoral, you have your own set of rules there too. You said pornography is not immoral and if someone says it is they are immoral, so that’s backwards but that’s what you go with, making excuses for your sin. But nonetheless you’re a slave to it.

It was a false claim, as most of yours are. Just as your claim about pornography is wrong. You cannot rationally support your claim about pornography. I can rationally support mine.
I am not a slave to pornography. Nor is it a sin. You cannot properly support either of those claims. Now you may be a slave to false beliefs. You seem to be rather fixated on concepts that are demonstrably wrong.

blü 2 · Sep 14, 2021

ElishaElijah said:
Just an observation not an excuse, you really are in the dark on things. As far as moral or immoral, you have your own set of rules there too. You said pornography is not immoral and if someone says it is they are immoral, so that’s backwards but that’s what you go with, making excuses for your sin. But nonetheless you’re a slave to it.

Pornography is capable of harm. But then, so are automobiles.

And direct depictions of copulations go back a long way. If the Venus of Willendorf fits your take on pornography, it's 25,000 years old , more than 20,000 years older than Yahweh.

Sex is simply part of life. All animals, humans included, are functionally designed around reproduction, which from the point of view of their survival as a species is the only important thing they ever do, and nature has provided them and us with appetites accordingly.

So on what moral basis do you distinguish pornography from automobiles?

Subduction Zone · Sep 14, 2021

blü 2 said:
Pornography is capable of harm. But then, so are automobiles.

And direct depictions of copulations go back a long way. If the Venus of Willendorf fits your take on pornography, it's 25,000 years old , more than 20,000 years older than Yahweh.

Sex is simply part of life. All animals, humans included, are functionally designed around reproduction, which from the point of view of their survival as a species is the only important thing they ever do, and nature has provided them and us with appetites accordingly.

So on what moral basis do you distinguish pornography from automobiles?

One of the greatest wrongs of Christianity was to make sex a "sin". I can understand the need for restricting it in those times. But almost all of the reasons for doing so have gone away.

rational experiences · Sep 14, 2021

What most of you overlook when you discuss a human. You discuss just a human.

If you discuss a changed human you use science to explain why.

The reason you use science is because human men infer science thesis to states before natural bio human life lived.

Science says it practices before life conditions by machines.

Science is in fact an inhumane liar.

Christ gases he said arose out of God one stone planet body. A human science teaching CH gases.

To say the heavenly body in space now owned it so don't change any stone mass.

As an actual human scientific reason.

Jesus in fact never existed logically. Healthy human men did with healthy life continuance human man baby from healthy human woman body by sex.

So if sex is not included in the man baby advice then you would know it had a man's scientific explanation applied.

Medical bio genesis genetic advice. Human genetics only owned by living self present humans.

Human life was taught as equal human life so scientific human egotists could be dealt with coercing by rich human controlled support.

Why today the conscious man said being rich placed men into a choice controlled position endangering life on earth and meant what he said. Rich men should not be allowed those choices as life was meant to be lived naturally and equally.

Is in fact an exact and correct self human teaching living on a planet they named as God earth.

As it was said for self human survival reasoning which by human advice is spiritual advice.

blü 2 · Sep 14, 2021

Subduction Zone said:
One of the greatest wrongs of Christianity was to make sex a "sin". I can understand the need for restricting it in those times. But almost all of the reasons for doing so have gone away.

Yes. I think the principle moral questions surround honesty, equality and good faith in sexual relationships.

I confess incest seems to me like a bad idea, though by what principle I'm hard put to say.

Subduction Zone · Sep 14, 2021

blü 2 said:
Yes. I think the principle moral questions surround honesty, equality and good faith in sexual relationships.

I confess incest seems to me like a bad idea, though by what principle I'm hard put to say.

Well besides the genetic facto incest raises the question of informed consent and grooming.-

Trailblazer · Sep 14, 2021

blü 2 said:
Pornography is capable of harm. But then, so are automobiles.

Automobiles much more so.

I have a funny story about pornography. Once, years back, my Christian coworker and I were talking and I cannot remember how we got on the subject, but long story short he had no wife or girlfriend and was really lonely so I asked him if he wanted me to bring him some porn videos. Mind you they were VHS tapes, it was that long ago. So I smuggled them into work in a brown paper bag and he thanked me profusely.

He was in his early 40s so he had all but given up hope of ever getting married but not too long after that he met a woman and they got married and they were very happy and even had a baby together.

rational experiences · Sep 15, 2021

In the past irradiated changed chemical brain state behaviour witnessed.

The theme to teach involves all subjects.

Yet if you are first a self human healthy natural spiritual equal you then include topics not ever needed to spiritually be discussed. We were forced to.

Scientific quantified by men as acts of evil was by taking form of God stone products destroying and converting them.

Science introduced human lying to continue nuclear science for trade greed control threats.

Science does your math formula to get gods changed stone body by science human as pondered thought calculations involve just the gained energy? By gods body you change yourself then consume it.

As a machine resource to power the machine? Inventions need a machine life.

No. Consuming removing of said energy gained is not maths included as the answer formula. Maths hence lies does not include natural results to origin form. Consumed and removed.

Origin form created presence. Consumed gone.

Scientific coercion in the beginning. We aren't living in or as the beginning.

Science hence lied.

Spiritual teachings said evil is not spiritual. Destruction change is change is never healed nor replaced.

Then science occult argued but human bio form did. Get replaced after destroyed. And thinks that statement is maths.

Reason to argue no man is God and how in science the status was never the heavens.

As you need to understand scientists are liars.

Children babies are our life future. Human.

Adults self owned in cults abuse babies children and sexually molest them and do evil acts against life continuance. Conscious advice is holy life of the child.

As life became irradiated if the science mentality expresses first who care less about natural life by maths agreed God product destruction continuance it is also by demonstrated man behaviour.

He exhibits it outwardly also. In two places pre thought then inherited.

The evil act against human life self occult science irradiation not originally stating science changed God. Direct blame in science....God did it.

Bible was written to denote man did it directly to self by man's choice ignored as usual. As he caused gods body stone to change.

As each speck of dust owned presence by a huge large opened space pressure. Remove the energy speck of huge energy pressurized within a larger space then opens.

Changed space pressure destroys held mass. Blows up into huge chunks. It expanded space heated explodes outwards into small speckled particles. Two forms of pre blasting evidences in space.

O once held God bodies. Known by the scientist. As science says origin mass was colder first. Ignored also.

That type of man mentality known advice if what he seeks as beginning advice equals end advice proves he has no belief of life continuance beyond himself.

Christ was first holiest highest status also ignored. In teaching concepts.

Man's life was sacrificed.

Life was saved even though man irradiated life.

Original science a long time ago placed the advice Jesus before Christ meaning a long time ago they ended all life on earth.

As evidence science had by man's choice.

Science first advice. I invented radiating fall of man fallout. I tried to bring voided light constant by machine to the ground. Void vacuum owned it.

Burning gas.

God earth stone ground never owned it. Lied.

Mother womb had kept life safe space.

Life sacrificed life survived.

So kept using machine. Even after notified. Life was sacrificed by science cause but survived. Once. All life then destroyed. First origin life on earth.

We are taught we returned to life and are living a second human life. Removed of first healthy life origin.

After ice age old recorded heavens man science was heard. As our psyche re developed. Told everyone I heard man's science advice.

Copied it's practice. Ice previously did not exist. Ignored as modern day science advice.

Ice end of year returned saviour saved life. We lived sacrificed genetic exodus. Mutated. Healed. Moses.

Intent however based on origin science notification all life had ended.

Notice science knew ice saved us now ice is melting. Science totally advised.

Healed humans as human sex gets rid of mutations in sex act.

As we lived not in changed gas heavens. Constant water oxygen heavens THE SAME.

Ignored also by scientists. Sex gets rid of it. Gas heavens not about our life. Scientific liars.

Reapplied pyramid temple again. Life starts dying sacrificed again. So said Christ body removed as by Jesus act again.

Jesus in Phi begins on bare ground radiated melted stone etched Phi signs. Science lie said it begins on top of crops ends on bare ground.

Both thoughts evil.

Science is the lie.

So what does it take to convince humans that science is evil and scientists the first cult are liars?

Jesus as Christ

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