Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Sorry, but your non-logic simply does not scan. Would you like to try again?
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Jesus as Christ
- Thread starter Redemptionsong
- Start date
ElishaElijah
Return
Exactly, when you say Hebrews 1 is Jesus talking about God it really makes no sense. But that’s what you said.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, it makes perfect sense. That was what he was doing. He was not talking about himself. Your conclusion simply made no sense at all.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Sorry it is late at night. Let me clarify a bit. Hebrews was Paul, or some other early Christian, the author is not really known, writing about God and Jesus:
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,<Author of Hebrews talking about God >
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. <Author of Hebrews talking about Jesus and God, though God worked some god magic through Jesus when he made the universe>
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.<Author writing some quasi nonsensical claims about Jesus and then saying that they will sit down together. He is God's good old right hand man>
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name<Oh look at that! Author writing about how Jesus got a promotion, still not God>
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,<Author of Hebrews talking about God >
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. <Author of Hebrews talking about Jesus and God, though God worked some god magic through Jesus when he made the universe>
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.<Author writing some quasi nonsensical claims about Jesus and then saying that they will sit down together. He is God's good old right hand man>
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name<Oh look at that! Author writing about how Jesus got a promotion, still not God>
Surely if you want to know what a messiah is in Judaism, the person to ask is a Jewish scholar?
A man in the sense of Uncle Sam or John Bull, perhaps?
I don't see how the Christians can pass the onus of proof to the Jews. If Jesus was a Jewish messiah then it falls to the Christians to show this is correct, not as a matter of faith but as a matter of fact.
I'm a neutral onlooker. It means nothing to me whether Jesus satisfied the Jewish definition of a messiah or not. But as a matter of history, I don't see how the Christian case can be made. The Christians were the only ones calling Jesus the messiah, yet he was neither a civil, military or religious leader of the Jews, nor anointed by the priesthood.
Nor can I find any justification for the claim that the Jews in fact recognized Jesus as the messiah but refused to say so out loud for their own somehow improper reasons. (I don't think you've made that claim, just to be clear, but others have.)
And Jesus' sect has brought more persecution and killing to the Jews across two thousand years than any other group by an enormous margin ─ an unbelievable thing for the God of the Jews to do to [his] Chosen People.
As you know, I don't believe in prophecy just as I don't believe in other forms of magic. It's true that prophecy was used as a tool in politics both in and outside of Judaism, but that's a question for psychology and anthropology.
First, it doesn't say virgin, it says 'almah, young woman. It doesn't become 'virgin' until the translators of the Septuagint translate it using the Greek word parthenos (virgin). That is, 'virgin' is not a requirement in the original.
Second the Jesuses of Matthew and Luke were born by the divine insemination of a virgin but the Jesus of Mark certainly was not, and the Jesuses of Paul and of John inferentially were not, since it seems too remarkable a datum to omit if the claim is there.
Third, Isaiah 7 is about Ahaz, king of Judah, whose throne is threatened by his neighbors. God says, Ahaz, if you want a sign, just ask (Isaiah 7:11) and when Ahaz declines (7:12) , that's when we learn that the sign is for Ahaz and his time (13-14). A young woman will bear a son, Immanuel, who'll be of good omen. And what happens? In Isaiah 8:3 "And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son," and since we're still in the same tale, that's the son in 7:14.
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This, to me, is key. It shows that there is no way to correct any ideas that are mistaken. And *that* shows me there is no possibility of knowledge (justified true belief).
And *that* leads me to wonder why anyone would believe in something that cannot be verified.
And this is precisely why religious ideas can be so dangerous! Because there is no way to test, people can dream up anything they feel like and claim it is valid. And that is what leads to extremism and all of the bad aspects of religion.
Faith is *precisely* the problem that leads to all of the really bad aspects of religion.
You are correct that religious beliefs are always subject to error and personal bias, but that does not mean that a religious belief cannot be true, it just means you have to have a method of determining that which is unbiased and leads to the truth.[/QUOTE]
Reading other books is what shows the similarities. Nobody has to 'convince me' other than the simple act of reading for understanding and knowing the cultures. It is all superstition as far as I can see.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
@Trailblazer -
Isaiah 7:14 says nothing about a virgin. If you knew Hebrew you would know that, but then you don’t know Hebrew.
Actually you don’t know a lot about many things, including Judaism on just about any level. Not knowing much about a topic is certainly no crime. It’s not necessarily a shame…… unless one chooses to tout one’s ignorance like a badge of honor.
Some time ago someone, I think it was me, pointed out that your comments indicated you had no knowledge or understanding of Judaism. You responded that you neither need nor desire to learn because Judaism had been superceded, most recently by the Baha’i faith, and had no meaning or relevance anymore.
You need to stick to things you know.
Isaiah 7:14 says nothing about a virgin. If you knew Hebrew you would know that, but then you don’t know Hebrew.
Actually you don’t know a lot about many things, including Judaism on just about any level. Not knowing much about a topic is certainly no crime. It’s not necessarily a shame…… unless one chooses to tout one’s ignorance like a badge of honor.
Some time ago someone, I think it was me, pointed out that your comments indicated you had no knowledge or understanding of Judaism. You responded that you neither need nor desire to learn because Judaism had been superceded, most recently by the Baha’i faith, and had no meaning or relevance anymore.
You need to stick to things you know.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure what you mean. Jacob was an individual who had his name changed to Israel. So, there was an individual who was the head of the twelve tribes that also collectively became known as lsrael.
The same is true of Christ, who is the new Israel, head of all who call themselves Israel. For, as scripture says, 'all lsrael shall be saved' [Romans 11:26].
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Altfish
Veteran Member
Only to Christians; outside your bubble Jesus Christ and the Messiah are not the same.
To quote Brian's mum, "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy"
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Hebrews 9:25-27. 'Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with the blood of others;
For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.'
This passage of scripture makes it abundantly clear that there can only be one Christ, or Messiah. Sin cannot be taken away by anyone other than the Son of God, Jesus Christ.
IMO.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Once Jesus had ascended to heaven, he was able to send the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is now the means by which we know the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Father.
ElishaElijah
Return
I found that there is the Truth, Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. Proved that by rising from the dead. Then there are a multitude of counterfeits because Satan is the author of those.
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
The first thing that I'm pleased to read in your post is that you accept the Tanakh as the word of God! This is an important starting point for meaningful conversation about the person of Jesus.
It's also important to acknowledge that, throughout the Tanakh, prophecies of the coming Messiah are found in 'type' (such as Abraham taking Isaac for sacrifice at Mount Moriah) and in the eternal 'perfection' of temporal servants, kings and priests. In King David, for example, we have 'David my servant' or reference to the Messiah [see Ezekiel 37:24]
You believe that followers of Jesus concocted the story of Jesus, by taking prophecies from the Tanakh and ascribing them to Jesus, without justification. I hold that this is an impossible position to sustain, because there are events in the life of Jesus, such as the birth and crucifixion, which cannot have been concocted by the design of Jesus' followers! Yet, these events are prophesied in scripture.
You ask why it is that the Jews have suffered for two thousand years, living as a 'diaspora', a migrant minority, without a land of their own.
Listen to Moses. Deuteronomy 29:25-28. 'Then men shall say, Because they have forsaken the covenant of the LORD God of their fathers, which he made with them when he brought them forth out of the land of Egypt:
For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them:
And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.'
What is still more remarkable, is that Moses goes on to say 'That then [following repentance amongst Jews] the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.'
What is this, if not prophecy about the nation of Israel over a period of two thousand years?
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Context matters, and in the Bible the Suffering Servant is the nation of Israel named after its mythical founder.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
But you have no valid reason for this belief. You only have "works for me". Just about every religion has someone that was "saved" by their religion. That is not very convincing evidence at all for a god.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Life of Brian is more accurate than some documentaries that you will see on the History Channel.
ElishaElijah
Return
There is only 1 valid proof whether or not someone is saved and that is whether or not they have been born again of the Holy Spirit as a result of repenting and believing the Gospel.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
Sorry that is not proof. You do not appear to understand what proof is. And you never substantiated your claim that one has to have been saved to understand the Bible.
Well, I have no doubt that is your *belief*. But without evidence, there is no reason anyone else should believe the same as you.
I see the stories of the resurrection as just that: stories. Like the stories of Elvis living long past when he died.
In my mind, Satan is just as much a superstition as God is.