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Andrew Yang to launch a third party

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
My point was that there are two ways of looking at it.

I know. But my point is that there are MORE than two ways of looking at it.
I actually don't disagree with anything you're saying, except that in a FPTP system,behaving multiple candidates representing similar views against a single candidate representing opposing views, the single candidate almost invariably wins.

That is absolutely not the case with a preferential voting system...regardless of whether candidates are independent or party-backed.

I think a preferential system would help improve some of the weaknesses in the current system, which reinforces binary voting habits, imo.

People say that Nader spoiled the election for Gore, but in my opinion, Nader was the far better candidate. Why blame Nader and those who voted for him, when it could just as easily be turned around and blame Gore and his supporters for Nader not being elected?

Surely you can see that having two progressive candidates reduced the chance of either being elected against a single conservative alternative though?

That would not preclude consideration of the impact of the voting system. But in the end, the system is only as good as the voters.

Totally agree. There are lots of things that could be done to help in that area (and some people doing good work).
 

ecco

Veteran Member
You have a bad habit of projecting what you think other people are saying, without actually reading what they're saying.
Wrong!


I'm saying the Democrats should have voted for Nader. It was a mistake for them to vote for Gore.

Yes, I know that is what you are saying. That is what I responded to. That is why I responded as I did.

You saying that democrats should have voted for Nader is just your unsubstantiated opinion.

Most people know little about Nader in 2020. They had no reason to support him over Gore.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Please try to keep up with the context. Gore did not win the popular vote in Florida. Too many people voted for Nader instead of Gore and Gore lost Florida and therefore the electoral college.

Bush got a little over 500 votes more than Gore in Florida.
The other 3 candidates received a little over 135,000 with Nader around 97,000.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Well, namely in that I didn't call the DNC a "Great Evil". Try reading that quote a bit closer.


Previously...
Thank you (not really) for perpetuating the Great Lie as referenced prior. Can't wait to hear all about the next Great Evil that we must fervently vote Democrat to save the nation from, or else we're giving it away to those evil, moustache-twirling Republicans...

I never asserted you said the DNC was a Great Evil. I was using your terminology to show a different side of the argument.

Previously...
Sanders voters had much more in common with Clinton's policies than with Trump's policies. Yet many of them thought like you and wanted to defy the Great Evil of the DNC. Trump became their president for the next four years and took away many of the things they favored (eg. Paris Accord) and gave them things they abhorred (eg. expanded oil leases, expanded logging).
To some people, the opposition party is the Great Evil.
To some people, the Great Evil is their own party and its rules and biases.

Your argument was that the Dems pointed to the Repubs as a Great Evil to try to force all good Dems to vote for the chosen candidate.

The other side of that argument is that some fringe voters refer to the party and the chosen candidate as the Great Evil to garner support for their candidate (Nader, Sanders). In so doing they are often helping elect a person who is actually opposed to their own views (Bush, Trump).

You liked Sanders. So why didn't you vote Clinton? | Lucia Graves

Many of the senator’s supporters failed to vote for Hillary Clinton despite the fact her platform was the most progressive in the Democratic party’s history​

Whatever your opinions about Clinton, the most progressive Democratic platform in history was on the ballot with her; any Bernie Sanders supporter worth their salt should’ve been able to see that. If they cared about progressive policy they would have bothered to show up.​
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Yes, that's my opinion, and I'm entitled to it. You have a problem with that?

You have every right to your opinion. I have every right to point out that it is an unsubstantiated opinion and therefore worthless to anyone other than yourself.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Bush got a little over 500 votes more than Gore in Florida.
The other 3 candidates received a little over 135,000 with Nader around 97,000.

What's your point?


A poll taken after the election revealed that of Nader's 97,488 votes 30% percent wouldn't have voted at all if Nader was not in the race. 40% would have voted for Gore (38,995). 20% would have voted for Bush (19,497).​



Gore would have won Florida by approximately 19,000 votes.


Green Party Nader would have been offered the position of Head of EPA. (Same source as above).
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
I never asserted you said the DNC was a Great Evil.
Yeah, actually you did.

Sanders voters had much more in common with Clinton's policies than with Trump's policies. Yet many of them thought like you and wanted to defy the Great Evil of the DNC.

I was using your terminology to show a different side of the argument.
So you were misrepresenting me. Thanks for clearing that up.

Your argument was that the Dems pointed to the Repubs as a Great Evil to try to force all good Dems to vote for the chosen candidate.
No. That specific thread of my argument is that to the DNC there will never be an opportune time to vote third party. It's not in their interest. Full stop. You are then reading way far into that and drawing conclusions that I did not say, but you're making to seem as though I did say even though it's your take. In a word, you're projecting.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Is that a fault of the system or voter mentality and the Media? I argue it's the latter. There would be no fundamental change to the system itself if a majority of voters decided to vote for the Green Party rather than Democrat or Republican.
The problem is parties tend to be offshoots of either Republicans or Democrats and not truly grassroot nor independent on its own.

Those that are, have a bats chance in hell of succeeding and becoming prominent enough to stand head and toe to the two party monopoly.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I know. But my point is that there are MORE than two ways of looking at it.
I actually don't disagree with anything you're saying, except that in a FPTP system,behaving multiple candidates representing similar views against a single candidate representing opposing views, the single candidate almost invariably wins.

That is absolutely not the case with a preferential voting system...regardless of whether candidates are independent or party-backed.

I think a preferential system would help improve some of the weaknesses in the current system, which reinforces binary voting habits, imo.

It could work. I'm not sure if many people would go for it, though. That's part of the problem. There's too much political inertia in this regard, and people are pretty set in their ways. Nobody really wants to change the system or rock the boat.

A lot of the problem has to do with the fact that many things are decided at the state level, so unless a party has a viable apparatus in every state, they're going to be at a disadvantage.

Surely you can see that having two progressive candidates reduced the chance of either being elected against a single conservative alternative though?

Of course, but I wouldn't consider Gore to be progressive. There's been an ongoing rift between progressives and moderates within the Democratic Party. In a lot of ways, I think the Reagan-Bush era may have thrown a lot of Democrats for a loop. In fact, Reagan got a lot of crossover support from Democrats. I think the Democrats got tired of losing elections and had to find someone who was more pleasing towards big business, and that's when they found Clinton.

Teddy Roosevelt ran in 1912 under the Progressive Party ticket (aka "Bull Moose"), against the incumbent Republican Taft and the Democrat Wilson. Roosevelt was a former Republican himself, and ostensibly split the Republican vote, leading to Wilson's victory. On the other hand, Roosevelt was still fairly popular, so it's possible that he could have won if more Taft voters voted for him.

My point is, I'm not inclined to accept any criticism of those who vote third party as "spoilers," and I also think it's unfair to blame them if the candidate one hates is elected in the process.

The deeper part of the problem at hand here is that America overall seems to be more conservative and provincial in how they view politics. The Democrats might be taking a more pragmatic and expedient approach by appearing more conservative (at least in terms of economic and foreign policies). That's why their tendency is to select the safe candidate, even if they're mediocre and questionable.

On the other hand, young progressives like AOC could probably shake things up and put a new face to the party. I'm not saying that the Democrats have completely sold out, but they need to get back to basics.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
You have every right to your opinion. I have every right to point out that it is an unsubstantiated opinion and therefore worthless to anyone other than yourself.

And that is your unsubstantiated opinion. Thank you, and good night.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
It could work. I'm not sure if many people would go for it, though. That's part of the problem. There's too much political inertia in this regard, and people are pretty set in their ways. Nobody really wants to change the system or rock the boat.

A lot of the problem has to do with the fact that many things are decided at the state level, so unless a party has a viable apparatus in every state, they're going to be at a disadvantage.



Of course, but I wouldn't consider Gore to be progressive. There's been an ongoing rift between progressives and moderates within the Democratic Party. In a lot of ways, I think the Reagan-Bush era may have thrown a lot of Democrats for a loop. In fact, Reagan got a lot of crossover support from Democrats. I think the Democrats got tired of losing elections and had to find someone who was more pleasing towards big business, and that's when they found Clinton.

Teddy Roosevelt ran in 1912 under the Progressive Party ticket (aka "Bull Moose"), against the incumbent Republican Taft and the Democrat Wilson. Roosevelt was a former Republican himself, and ostensibly split the Republican vote, leading to Wilson's victory. On the other hand, Roosevelt was still fairly popular, so it's possible that he could have won if more Taft voters voted for him.

My point is, I'm not inclined to accept any criticism of those who vote third party as "spoilers," and I also think it's unfair to blame them if the candidate one hates is elected in the process.

The deeper part of the problem at hand here is that America overall seems to be more conservative and provincial in how they view politics. The Democrats might be taking a more pragmatic and expedient approach by appearing more conservative (at least in terms of economic and foreign policies). That's why their tendency is to select the safe candidate, even if they're mediocre and questionable.

On the other hand, young progressives like AOC could probably shake things up and put a new face to the party. I'm not saying that the Democrats have completely sold out, but they need to get back to basics.

Good post. Have some thoughts, but no time at the moment, but you make some good observations.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
What's your point?


A poll taken after the election revealed that of Nader's 97,488 votes 30% percent wouldn't have voted at all if Nader was not in the race. 40% would have voted for Gore (38,995). 20% would have voted for Bush (19,497).​



Gore would have won Florida by approximately 19,000 votes.


Green Party Nader would have been offered the position of Head of EPA. (Same source as above).

Every third-party candidate received enough votes in Florida to have cost Al Gore the election.

Dispelling the Myth of Election 2000: Did Nader Cost Gore the Election?

No, Ralph Nader Did Not Hand the 2000 Presidential Election to George W. Bush – Reason.com

Also...

Tennessee was won by Governor George W. Bush by a 3.87% margin of victory, despite having voted for President Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996 and being the home state of Vice President Al Gore. If Gore had carried his home state, he, instead of Bush, would have been elected president. The Florida electoral votes would have been irrelevant

2000 United States presidential election in Tennessee - Wikipedia
 
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ecco

Veteran Member
I never asserted you said the DNC was a Great Evil. I was using your terminology to show a different side of the argument.
So you were misrepresenting me. Thanks for clearing that up.

How is using some words you used, misrepresenting you?

If you had taken the time to read and comprehend what I wrote, you would have realized I was making a completely different point. Instead, you saw a couple of words you used and went off the deep end.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Every third-party candidate received enough votes in Florida to have cost Al Gore the election.
But Nader was the one who had similar policies.

RE:
No, Ralph Nader Did Not Hand the 2000 Presidential Election to George W. Bush – Reason.com

That is an article from August 2016 from a right wing outlet. It's purpose is quite transparent to the unbiased reader.

You may have heard that you're either a "ridiculous" Bernie Bro or some other form of privileged white dude unless you accept the prevailing theory among Hillary Clinton supporters that a vote for Libertarian Party presidential candidate Gary Johnson or Green Party candidate Jill Stein is a vote for Donald Trump, just the way a vote for Ralph Nader was a vote for George W. Bush in 2000.
In other words: Go on and vote for Gary or Jill. That won't help get Trump elected, any more than voting for Nader got Bush elected. Wink, wink.
 
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We Never Know

No Slack
But Nader was the one who had similar policies.

RE:
No, Ralph Nader Did Not Hand the 2000 Presidential Election to George W. Bush – Reason.com

That is an article from August 2016 from a right wing outlet. It's purpose is quite transparent to the unbiased reader.

You may have heard that you're either a "ridiculous" Bernie Bro or some other form of privileged white dude unless you accept the prevailing theory among Hillary Clinton supporters that a vote for Libertarian Party presidential candidate Gary Johnson or Green Party candidate Jill Stein is a vote for Donald Trump, just the way a vote for Ralph Nader was a vote for George W. Bush in 2000.
In other words: Go on and vote for Gary or Jill. That won't help get Trump elected, any more than voting for Nader got Bush elected. Wink, wink.

Uhm.. You seemed to have missed this part of my post...

Tennessee was won by Governor George W. Bush by a 3.87% margin of victory, despite having voted for President Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996 and being the home state of Vice President Al Gore. If Gore had carried his home state, he, instead of Bush, would have been elected president. The Florida electoral votes would have been irrelevant

2000 United States presidential election in Tennessee - Wikipedia
 

The Kilted Heathen

Crow FreyjasmaðR
How is using some words you used, misrepresenting you?
Because you clearly attributed a stance to me that I did not state holding. You misrepresented my stance (of which you don't really know) and my point.

If you had taken the time to read and comprehend what I wrote, you would have realized I was making a completely different point. Instead, you saw a couple of words you used and went off the deep end.
Leaving this for posterity. Stating that you misrepresented my stance (which you did) is not "going off the deep end".
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Seeing the native American father lives nationally on his land...overthrown by the English looking for riches as the rich man problem earths family owned..... maybe you finally reason your personal spiritual advice about rich men's incorrect American status.

What was spiritually taught was by America's real father.

A native Indian.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
Uhm.. You seemed to have missed this part of my post...

Tennessee was won by Governor George W. Bush by a 3.87% margin of victory, despite having voted for President Bill Clinton in 1992 and 1996 and being the home state of Vice President Al Gore. If Gore had carried his home state, he, instead of Bush, would have been elected president. The Florida electoral votes would have been irrelevant

2000 United States presidential election in Tennessee - Wikipedia

That has nothing to do with the fact that third-party candidates usually take votes away from the candidate whose ideals are the most similar.

Nader hurt Gore, not Bush.
Sanders hurt Clinton, not Trump.
 
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