Texas Law Banning Abortion After About Six Weeks Takes Effect

SkepticThinker said:

You don't need proof. Think about it.

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I do because a lot of people are saying "most women don't know until 6 weeks."
I only see articles with 4-7 weeks.

SkepticThinker said:

And that's people who have regular periods. Many don't.

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But most do.

SkepticThinker said:

So if we take the conservative route and go with 4 weeks, now we're at 4 weeks and we've got to make a doctor's appointment.

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Pregnancy tests are invented and I would think most doctors will suggest you take that before even calling. That's common sense.

SkepticThinker said:

Do you have a vagina, uterus, ovaries, etc.?

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What an uncomfortable question, but yes.

SkepticThinker said:

When is it that you think someone can tell they've missed their period?

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Depends on the definition of a missed period. Some say it is when your period is late even by one day, some say it is when you skip a period. Others say it is when you are 7 days (or more) late.

Most pregnancy tests instruct you to take it on the first day of your missed period and some sooner. However, some researches say 1 in 3 women will get a negative result on the first day of their expected period even if pregnant so the test is more accurate (and highly accurate) a week after the missed period. But very early pregnancy tests will be almost 100% accurate even on the first day of the missed period and 25% accurate 6 days before expected period.

On top of that many women will have pregnancy symptoms before their missed period.

SkepticThinker said:

A six week old embryo doesn't have anything near a fully developed heart and therefore doesn't have a heartbeat.

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With the same thinking as "it's not a baby, it's a fetus." doctors call it a heartbeat and seeing that heartbeat and it being good is a strong sign of a viable pregnancy.

Shakeel said:

(I haven't seen proof for this.)

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Calculating Conception

If the mother has a regular period and knows the first day of her last menstrual period, gestational age can be calculated from this date. Gestational age is calculated from the first day of the mother’s last menstrual period and not from the date of conception.

Ultrasound
The baby can be measured as early as 5 or 6 weeks after the mother’s last menstrual period.

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Shakeel said:

A lot of people with hormone birth control know if they're pregnant. You miss your period and get symptoms the same way you do without it.

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That's not true. Most people with hormone birth control have irregular periods and get little to no symptoms during the placebo part if there even is one. Many bc manufacturers don't even do the placebo phase anymore and all inserts and injection style hormone bc doesn't have cycles.

When I was on Mirena I had a period maybe once every three months. Had none on depo shot. Have none on Yaz pill throwing away the placebo. Thus is most women's experience with hormone bc.

And, again, hormone bc is used to treat severe periods for millions of women, from PCOS to endometriosis, PID to thyroid conditions, even anxiety and depression can cause irregular or severe periods.

Shakeel said:

Excuse me?

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The sound you hear during six weeks isn't a heartbeat, but it's called a medical heartbeat when it really shouldn't be. It is created by the ultrasound, if you put up a stethoscope you wouldn't hear anything. That's because there's no valves yet, or anything resembling a heart. All there is, is a patch of cells which can send electrical activity in a rythem that will eventually be a heartbeat.

Shakeel said:

I do because a lot of people are saying "most women don't know until 6 weeks."
I only see articles with 4-7 weeks.

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Seven is more than 6, right? There you go.

Shakeel said:

But most do.

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I don't know how you've determined that.

Shakeel said:

Pregnancy tests are invented and I would think most doctors will suggest you take that before even calling. That's common sense.

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Great, those cost money and they're not foolproof. You're going to have to end up seeing a doctor anyway.

You've ignored my entire point though. That being, that you don't just find out your pregnant, see a doctor, and get an abortion all in one day. It's a process that takes time. Six weeks generally is not enough time for the entire process to play out. I have a feeling that's exactly what the people who put this law together were hoping for. That it would be too late for most women, and they'd be stuck having to remain pregnant.

Shakeel said:

What an uncomfortable question, but yes.

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Sorry, Just asking because it sounds like you don't know what you're talking about.

Shakeel said:

Depends on the definition of a missed period. Some say it is when your period is late even by one day, some say it is when you skip a period. Others say it is when you are 7 days (or more) late.
Most pregnancy tests instruct you to take it on the first day of your missed period and some sooner. However, some researches say 1 in 3 women will get a negative result on the first day of their expected period even if pregnant so the test is more accurate (and highly accurate) a week after the missed period. But very early pregnancy tests will be almost 100% accurate even on the first day of the missed period and 25% accurate 6 days before expected period.

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Great, so you realize this is a more complex situation than you've made it out to be.

Shakeel said:

On top of that many women will have pregnancy symptoms before their missed period.

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Many won't.

Shakeel said:

With the same thinking as "it's not a baby, it's a fetus." doctors call it a heartbeat and seeing that heartbeat and it being good is a strong sign of a viable pregnancy.

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I'm just stating a fact, and calling it what it is. It can't be heartbeat if the embryo doesn't have a heart (it's referred to as an embryo until the 8th week of development).

Shakeel said:

But most do.

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Even if I believed that most women have the same experience, which I don't, then it still doesn't matter. If even 15% of the people being governed by a law doesn't fit the law, then it's a **** law. It's very clear to me that these politicians don't understand women's bodies. My question is if they care or are just looking for excuses.

Because saying women have a time to choose because they're being given 6 weeks is just really ****ing dumb.

ecco said:

Thank you for confirming what some of us have been stating all along. A fetus (unborn) is not a person.

Even your God agrees with that based on your comment.

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Wildswanderer said:

I said no such thing. The unborn is a viable human being.

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Yes, you did. You asserted...

Wildswanderer said:

Our days start when we are born.

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Furthermore, what makes you think unborns are viable? Is a 20 week fetus viable? If you believe so, then show some evidence.

Wildswanderer said:

It's about God decreeing a certain number of days and a person removing that opportunity.

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The same false concept. You are pretending to know how many days your god decreed for each fetus. Unless you are that god, you cannot know how many days he decreed for each fetus.



Do you know that about 30% of all pregnancies spontaneously abort? Isn't that just your god doing his thing?

Wildswanderer said:

That baby could have been the person to cure cancer or bring world peace but we will never know.

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That's about as bogus as you can get. It could've been another Hitler, or Mao, or Kim, or a Stephen Paddock. There are a lot more Stephen Paddocks out there than there are people curing cancer.

ADigitalArtist said:

Just have to point out another silliness of this thing.

Best case scenario this old bunch of dudes just don't know anything about female bodies.

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In addition to which they are first-class hypocrites. Gregg Abbott is against mandating masks for school children in a state where the pandemic is surging and children are getting infected and dying.

ecco said:

Furthermore, what makes you think unborns are viable? Is a 20 week fetus viable? If you believe so, then show some evidence.

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Yep.

"A baby born between 20 and 26 weeks is a considered to be periviable, or born during the window when a fetus has a chance of surviving outside the womb. These babies are called “micro-preemies.” A baby born before 24 weeks has less than a 50 percent chance at survival, say the experts at University of Utah Health."

ecco said:

That's about as bogus as you can get. It could've been another Hitler, or Mao, or Kim, or a Stephen Paddock. There are a lot more Stephen Paddocks out there than there are people curing cancer.

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Nothing bogus about it. Who knows what kind of world we would have if we didn't kill off some genius? Maybe we'd even have a real president.

ADigitalArtist said:

Calculating Conception

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How is that proof of the six weeks?

ADigitalArtist said:

Most people with hormone birth control have irregular periods and get little to no symptoms during the placebo part if there even is one.

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There's another claim without evidence.
"Certain types of birth control or a change in your birth control method can cause irregular periods. However, the birth control pill is often used to promote regular periods and should not cause long-term problems with your menstrual regularity. (...) If you have recently had an intrauterine device (IUD) implanted or started a new type of birth control pill, you may experience irregular periods for a few months. However, birth control generally regulates your periods over time by providing your body with a steady dose of hormones."

ADigitalArtist said:

The sound you hear during six weeks isn't a heartbeat, but it's called a medical heartbeat when it really shouldn't be. It is created by the ultrasound, if you put up a stethoscope you wouldn't hear anything. That's because there's no valves yet, or anything resembling a heart. All there is, is a patch of cells which can send electrical activity in a rythem that will eventually be a heartbeat.

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Which is a sign of a viable pregnancy. If regular doctors and expecting women call it a heartbeat, that's a heartbeat to me. No need to invent your owm terms just to win an argument.

SkepticThinker said:

Seven is more than 6, right? There you go.

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4 is less than six.

SkepticThinker said:

I don't know how you've determined that.

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By statistics.
However, 14% to 25% of women have irregular menstrual cycles,

SkepticThinker said:

Great, those cost money and they're not foolproof.

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Let's see how much they cost in America

"These tests are all basically the same. Though the prices will vary in range from a dollar to close to twenty dollars for a single test. You can also buy multiple packs of tests for a few dollars to close to thirty dollars."

A dollar doesn't sound like a lot to me. Does it to you?

Let's see how accurate or" fool proof" they are, though I already elaborated on that, but let's use evidence this time.

"These tests are often the same tests that are used in many physicians' and midwives' offices when you have a pregnancy test done there. Many practitioners do not even repeat a pregnancy test if you come into the office with a home pregnancy test that has been positive."

"Modern pregnancy tests — which still rely on the presence of hCG in urine — are up to 99 percent accurate, depending on the presence of certain medications, following the test's instructions accurately and how soon after pregnancy the test is performed. (The makers of e.p.t., which now stands for "error-proof testing," recommend waiting at least a week after a missed period.)"

In other words, if you take the test a week after missed period it is just about as fool proof as it gets and most pregnant women will have a positive result earlier.

SkepticThinker said:

You've ignored my entire point though. That being, that you don't just find out your pregnant, see a doctor, and get an abortion all in one day. It's a process that takes time. Six weeks generally is not enough time for the entire process to play out. I have a feeling that's exactly what the people who put this law together were hoping for. That it would be too late for most women, and they'd be stuck having to remain pregnant.

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They're not stuck to having to have sex though so.. That's their problem.

SkepticThinker said:

Sorry, Just asking because it sounds like you don't know what you're talking abou

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I thought the same about you, but do you really think your reproductive organs taught you all that?

SkepticThinker said:

Great, so you realize this is a more complex situation than you've made it out to be.

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I don't think it's complex. I'm only explaining how simple it is and how a woman can be responsible if she chooses to be responsible.

SkepticThinker said:

I'm just stating a fact

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Your objecting to a law by semantics that doctors find inaccurate.

"In human embryos the heart begins to beat at about 22-23 days, with blood flow beginning in the 4th week. The heart is therefore one of the earliest differentiating and functioning organs."

Excerpted from ‘America Magazine’

And if the pro-life cause has somehow failed to convince the rest of the country to care about the objectification or denial of the personhood of the human fetus in the womb, it is perhaps because they have spectacularly failed to care about the objectification of women who carry them.
Abortion exists because women have yet to be recognized as people in a world that curtails their freedom, that stifles their autonomy through fear, threat of harm, shame, poverty, inequality.

Instead of being free to choose the good, women are often forced by the systems we live in to choose the lesser of two evils.

To attempt to outlaw abortion without caring whether or not abortions will occur illegally or without caring why so many women see abortion as so essential to their freedom, health and happiness is shortsighted. Until all economic and social structures of sexism are transformed and the patriarchal mores in our hearts and relationships are converted, there will always be unwanted pregnancies. And if there are unwanted pregnancies, there will be abortions.

Pro-life Catholics: You can’t end abortion without taking on the patriarchy.

Shakeel said:

How is that proof of the six weeks?

4 is less than six.

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Seven isn't. You have me a timeframe of 4-7 weeks, which falls outside the 6 weeks we are discussing here. And as pointed out earlier, 4 isn't all that much earlier when you have to take a pregnancy test, make a doctor's appointment, then another doctor's appointment 24 hours after that one (if you can get it), travelling to the clinic, etc.

Shakeel said:

By statistics.
However, 14% to 25% of women have irregular menstrual cycles,

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That's quite a few women, isn't it?

Shakeel said:

Let's see how much they cost in America

"These tests are all basically the same. Though the prices will vary in range from a dollar to close to twenty dollars for a single test. You can also buy multiple packs of tests for a few dollars to close to thirty dollars."

A dollar doesn't sound like a lot to me. Does it to you?

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Twenty dollars sounds like a lot. Especially if you're on a tight budget.

They're also not foolproof and you'll still have to make a doctor's appointment to confirm. I myself have had a false positive result from a pregnancy test before.

Shakeel said:

Let's see how accurate or" fool proof" they are, though I already elaborated on that, but let's use evidence this time.

"These tests are often the same tests that are used in many physicians' and midwives' offices when you have a pregnancy test done there. Many practitioners do not even repeat a pregnancy test if you come into the office with a home pregnancy test that has been positive."

"Modern pregnancy tests — which still rely on the presence of hCG in urine — are up to 99 percent accurate, depending on the presence of certain medications, following the test's instructions accurately and how soon after pregnancy the test is performed. (The makers of e.p.t., which now stands for "error-proof testing," recommend waiting at least a week after a missed period.)"
In other words, if you take the test a week after missed period it is just about as fool proof as it gets and most pregnant women will have a positive result earlier.

Condoms are like 98% effective in preventing pregnancy too, but how many have broken or been put on incorrectly, etc.?

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Great, so let's get back to the point then, shall we? The time constraint was the point here.

See the part you've provided here that says it's recommended that you wait at least a week after a missed period before taking a pregnancy test? So now we're tacking yet another week onto this thing. So let's say you find out you're pregnant at the four week mark. So I just noticed I didn't get my period. So now I go out and buy a pregnancy test with the recommendation that I should take it a week after missing my period. So now we're at the five week mark. Now I've got exactly one week to make 2 doctor's appointments and get an abortion before the 6 week deadline kicks in.

Thank you for helping to illustrate how 6 weeks is not enough time.

Shakeel said:

They're not stuck to having to have sex though so.. That's their problem.

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Sorry, what? What's that got to do with what I said?

Shakeel said:

I thought the same about you, but do you really think your reproductive organs taught you all that?

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Their presence in my body urged me to learn about how they operate.

Shakeel said:

I don't think it's complex. I'm only explaining how simple it is and how a woman can be responsible if she chooses to be responsible.

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It is complex. As I've illustrated and as you have helped illustrate it.
Sorry you can't see it.

Oh wait, I just noticed you glossed right over that part and avoided addressing it.

Shakeel said:

Your objecting to a law by semantics that doctors find inaccurate.

"In human embryos the heart begins to beat at about 22-23 days, with blood flow beginning in the 4th week. The heart is therefore one of the earliest differentiating and functioning organs."

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There is no heart present at that time, so there cannot be a heartbeat. That's just basic logic.

They call it a heartbeat because it kinda sounds like one.

Wildswanderer said:

Nothing bogus about it. Who knows what kind of world we would have if we didn't kill off some genius? Maybe we'd even have a real president.

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If you want to play it that way, we could be saving the world from mass destruction and death by aborting Hitler II.

Shakeel said:

How is that proof of the six weeks?
There's another claim without evidence.
"Certain types of birth control or a change in your birth control method can cause irregular periods. However, the birth control pill is often used to promote regular periods and should not cause long-term problems with your menstrual regularity. (...) If you have recently had an intrauterine device (IUD) implanted or started a new type of birth control pill, you may experience irregular periods for a few months. However, birth control generally regulates your periods over time by providing your body with a steady dose of hormones."

Which is a sign of a viable pregnancy. If regular doctors and expecting women call it a heartbeat, that's a heartbeat to me. No need to invent your owm terms just to win an argument.

4 is less than six.

By statistics.
However, 14% to 25% of women have irregular menstrual cycles,

Let's see how much they cost in America

"These tests are all basically the same. Though the prices will vary in range from a dollar to close to twenty dollars for a single test. You can also buy multiple packs of tests for a few dollars to close to thirty dollars."

A dollar doesn't sound like a lot to me. Does it to you?

Let's see how accurate or" fool proof" they are, though I already elaborated on that, but let's use evidence this time.

"These tests are often the same tests that are used in many physicians' and midwives' offices when you have a pregnancy test done there. Many practitioners do not even repeat a pregnancy test if you come into the office with a home pregnancy test that has been positive."

"Modern pregnancy tests — which still rely on the presence of hCG in urine — are up to 99 percent accurate, depending on the presence of certain medications, following the test's instructions accurately and how soon after pregnancy the test is performed. (The makers of e.p.t., which now stands for "error-proof testing," recommend waiting at least a week after a missed period.)"

In other words, if you take the test a week after missed period it is just about as fool proof as it gets and most pregnant women will have a positive result earlier.

They're not stuck to having to have sex though so.. That's their problem.

I thought the same about you, but do you really think your reproductive organs taught you all that?

I don't think it's complex. I'm only explaining how simple it is and how a woman can be responsible if she chooses to be responsible.

Your objecting to a law by semantics that doctors find inaccurate.

"In human embryos the heart begins to beat at about 22-23 days, with blood flow beginning in the 4th week. The heart is therefore one of the earliest differentiating and functioning organs."

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You really do like to focus in only on the parts of a statement in which you think you can rebutt and ignore the rest don't you?

It means that in actual reality, gestational age is calculated before conception so there is up to a week during the prior period which counts against the six weeks. Bring the time from pregnancy to developmental age of six weeks one week down. The likelihood that you know about it five weeks past conception is low. And that's if you're regular with your period which, again, millions aren't.

Because having no period at all is a common side effect of many hormone birth controls. And intentional when treating hormone disorders. I literally told you, and you ignored, that I haven't had periods in years on hormone BC. When I switched to Yaz my doctor literally told me to skip the sugar pill days. And I just have one type of hormone disorder 1 in 10 women have. There's quite a lot more.

A heartbeat isn't a heartbeat without a heart. Calling it a heartbeat to make patients happy doesn't change that it's no more of one than it would be for an adult human to have electrical activity but no pumping. Is a 'fetal heartbeat' really a heartbeat at 6 weeks?
The Texas 'heartbeat ban' isn't medically accurate because there's no heart that early in pregnancy, providers say

Embryos Don’t Have Hearts

Also, as that last link goes into, that's not what viability means. Viability is ability to survive outside the womb which is, on average, not until 25 weeks.

All these medical milestones that supposedly signal
the start of a human life are arbitrary. Whether by some
scriptural reference, personal preference, or legal
definition...no single one is The Truth.
The arguments apply to a continuum typically from
conception to birth. There'll be some compromise
in the law that will leave many unsatisfied.
My personal preference....
That this compromise will allow some reasonable
time frame to consider, decide, & get an abortion.
I don't know how many months this would be.

ecco said:

Furthermore, what makes you think unborns are viable? Is a 20 week fetus viable? If you believe so, then show some evidence.

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Wildswanderer said:

Yep.
"A baby born between 20 and 26 weeks is a considered to be periviable, or born during the window when a fetus has a chance of surviving outside the womb. These babies are called “micro-preemies.” A baby born before 24 weeks has less than a 50 percent chance at survival, say the experts at University of Utah Health."

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Uh huh.

Google Periviability Meaning

You failed on two counts.


Also, consider...

Periviable Birth
More important, so I'll ask again, why are you against abortion?

Wildswanderer said:

Nothing bogus about it. Who knows what kind of world we would have if we didn't kill off some genius? Maybe we'd even have a real president.

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Everything bogus about it. If Bell hadn't invented the phone (some would argue, he didn't) someone else would have. If Ford hadn't created the assembly line, someone else would have. Without Hitler, who would have plunged Germany into the hell of WWII?

ADigitalArtist said:

It means that in actual reality, gestational age is calculated before conception so there is up to a week during the prior period which counts against the six weeks. Bring the time from pregnancy to developmental age of six weeks one week down. The likelihood that you know about it five weeks past conception is low. And that's if you're regular with your period which, again, millions aren't.

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In other words, you have no idea if the six weeks comment is true or not, nor do you have proof for it.

ADigitalArtist said:

Because having no period at all is a common side effect of many hormone birth control

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Yes, if you want an abortion like this, you might want to skip those. Most women still get their period on hormonal birth control.

ADigitalArtist said:

I literally told you, and you ignored, that I haven't had periods in years on hormone BC.

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Because it doesn't matter - it's just you. I know some women don't get their period. I know some women don't know they're pregnant until they give birth. My points have all been about the rules, not the exceptions.

ADigitalArtist said:

When I switched to Yaz my doctor literally told me to skip the sugar pill days.

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You're entirely responsible for obeying or disobeying your doctor's advice.

ADigitalArtist said:

A heartbeat isn't a heartbeat without a heart. Calling it a heartbeat to make patients happy doesn't change that it's no more of one than it would be for an adult human to have electrical activity but no pumping. Is a 'fetal heartbeat' really a heartbeat at 6 weeks?
The Texas 'heartbeat ban' isn't medically accurate because there's no heart that early in pregnancy, providers say

Embryos Don’t Have Hearts

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You have one article that has any legitimacy. The two others are just echoing it for propaganda reasons. I have, I don't know, hundreds of legitimate articles saying the opposite of your one legitimate article.

ADigitalArtist said:

Also, as that last link goes into, that's not what viability means. Viability is ability to survive outside the womb which is, on average, not until 25 weeks.

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Viability at 6 weeks means viability of the pregnancy. Later it means ability to survive outside the womb.

Twilight Hue said:

Yep. The ability and freedom to pack up and go live in a state that fits your political views if one desires.

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As if that's an easy thing...