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Missouri conservative group confronts student senator as he takes down and throws away flags from 9/

SomeRandom

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Stevicus said:
Well, I grew up exposed to both ultra-patriots and anti-war leftists, but I've also seen a more balanced and reasonable views expressed. But it's not really about the actual flags or symbols, as much as it's about the ideas and myths they represent.

It's ironic, since a lot of political debate between left and right in America is somewhat analogous to a religious debate between two sects. An underlying argument which seems evident in many issues is about "what America is." There are patriots on both the left and right, who will say that they love America and even believe in defending America when needed. But their differences lie in their conflicting perceptions about "what America is" and what conditions need to be present to warrant the use of military force in our defense.
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I may only be familiar with the more hyperbolic representations of US politics (thanks social media.) Both seem a bit hypocritical. Though I do know far more lefty creators who are willing to make video essays on the faults of their opponents. Whereas their right leaning opponents. Well they rely on other methods, shall we say?
Which is kind of interesting. And yes I am completely aware that that is not going to be an accurate representation of the American people right or left. Simply saying that I find more thorough “hit pieces” from radical leftists, whist the more radical on the right offer more rhetorical optics, if you like. Not saying that represents anyone here. That’s just my experiences in the wilds of the internet
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Your country currently has you all imprisoned with the military patrolling the street lest someone have the gall to want to take a walk. Yeah, you have a lot you can criticize your country on right now!
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If it makes you feel better about Australia, you should know that their immigrant detention facilities get the same criticism from the human rights community as your country's do.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/07/16/seven-years-suffering-australias-asylum-seekers-refugees
 
Debater Slayer

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Legal rights are one thing but I think everyone has a duty to love their country and should be respectful of it. That is good and healthy. The flag isn't about the government, it represents the nation and you're a part of that nation. If you hate your own country that much, you should look for another one. I certainly understand that as I'm often disappointed to be an American, I just think that most other countries have even more to be disappointed about. :D
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I don't think everyone has to love their country, at least not in the sense of not showing strong objection to its status quo. But I don't really disagree on your other points, since I've been working toward emigrating for almost a decade myself. I'm not about to go burn my country's flag, but I don't think the guy who threw the flags away should be burned at the stake for it either. He should face legal consequences for disposing of others' property, but not for throwing away the flag per se.
 
SomeRandom

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
If it makes you feel better about Australia, you should know that their immigrant detention facilities get the same criticism from the human rights community as your country's do.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/07/16/seven-years-suffering-australias-asylum-seekers-refugees
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Our detention facilities are criminal, if you ask me. And that’s not to say I’m for open borders, my views on the matter are….complicated let’s say. Just that we shouldn’t treat asylum seekers like animals.
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
Subduction Zone said:
We have a bit of a flag fetish here.
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The flag fetish annoys me, even as a former service member. I find the overly outward displays of Patriotism to border on Nationalism.
It smacks of the whole "My country, right or wrong attitude" instead of the more apt "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” (Carl Schurz).
 
Stevicus

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Bits that I recall:

- the flag is not to be displayed at a lower height than other flags.
- the flag is not to be displayed between dusk and dawn unless illuminated (they put them out at 8:15 pm to leave them until the ceremony the next morning).
- the flag or its image is not to be displayed on any disposable items.
- IIRC, there are rules about the arrangement of flag displays that would effectively prohibit a big grid of American flags (though I may be wrong on that point).

Not in the Flag Code, but something that matters to me: this was all a literally partisan display by the campus Republican student chapter. If this was a flag I revered, that's what I'd find especially offensive... though not as much as using a 9/11 memorial as a political event.

(Even though the idea of Republicans using a 9/11 memorial to their own political ends is an ironically fitting way to commemorate 9/11)

I think it was jerkish to remove the flags, but it was an inappropriate response to something that was legitimately offensive.
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I have seen small flags displayed on graves, and I did some checking the Flag Code just now, there doesn't seem to be any mention of that one way or the other.

I don't think the rule about displaying the flag lower than other flags would apply, since that specifies situations where the U.S. flag might be on display next to other flags. Although the Flag Code makes an exception for UN Headquarters. (On a side note, I noticed that some places in Texas I've seen violate this rule, since I've seen the Texas flag fly at equal height or sometimes even higher than the U.S. flag.)

However, there was also this rule:

  1. The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored in such a manner as to permit it to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged in any way.
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Of course, the Flag Code is not necessarily legally binding to civilians, and I don't think anyone can really get arrested for it. Otherwise, we'd see people getting arrested left and right. I've seen pictures of women wearing American flag bikinis, but somehow they can get away with it.

I suppose it could be a matter of whether the flag is being used respectfully or not. Since it was university property, the only other legal concern was whether they had permission of the university to put the display there.
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
PureX said:
He has a valid point. We "avenged" our innocent victims by creating many, many, more.
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Valid point sure. But maybe he could have made his own display then, instead of vandalizing someone else's?

Like a display showing the 35000+ civilian casualties of our ME campaign. Compared to the 2500 lost service members on our side. (Numbers aren't exact, couldn't find accurate ones).
 
The Hammer

The Hammer

[REDACTED]
Premium Member
Stevicus said:
I have seen small flags displayed on graves, and I did some checking the Flag Code just now, there doesn't seem to be any mention of that one way or the other.

I don't think the rule about displaying the flag lower than other flags would apply, since that specifies situations where the U.S. flag might be on display next to other flags. Although the Flag Code makes an exception for UN Headquarters. (On a side note, I noticed that some places in Texas I've seen violate this rule, since I've seen the Texas flag fly at equal height or sometimes even higher than the U.S. flag.)

However, there was also this rule:

Of course, the Flag Code is not necessarily legally binding to civilians, and I don't think anyone can really get arrested for it. Otherwise, we'd see people getting arrested left and right. I've seen pictures of women wearing American flag bikinis, but somehow they can get away with it.

I suppose it could be a matter of whether the flag is being used respectfully or not. Since it was university property, the only other legal concern was whether they had permission of the university to put the display there.
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A lot of the little flags we buy for that purpose, aren't "true" flags, not the right number if stars or stripes typically. They do this in main street USA at Disneyland too, that way not all the flags there have to follow the flag Code.

Behind The Magic: Why Disney Doesn't Follow U.S. Flag Code on Main Street USA. — Save at Walt Disney World
 
Subduction Zone

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The Hammer said:
The flag fetish annoys me, even as a former service member. I find the overly outward displays of Patriotism to border on Nationalism.
It smacks of the whole "My country, right or wrong attitude" instead of the more apt "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” (Carl Schurz).
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Yeah, and then there are the Trump loyalists that bring it to a whole new level. I still see huge pickup trucks occasionally with paired over sized Trump and US flags on their back. What I do not like about what the protester did is that it makes those sort of people feel justified. A relatively innocuous display is turned into a talking point that helps the right by that stupidity.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
The Hammer said:
Valid point sure. But maybe he could have made his own display then, instead of vandalizing someone else's?

Like a display showing the 35000+ civilian casualties of our ME campaign. Compared to the 2500 lost service members on our side. (Numbers aren't exact, couldn't find accurate ones).
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One symbolic gesture tends to invite others, I suppose.
 
Stevicus

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
RestlessSoul said:
Good movie, but the anti Brit bias was a bit over the top imo. Add that to the one sided anti English sentiment of Braveheart, and I could easily develop a chip on my shoulder against Mel Gibson.

He’s not even a Yank or Jock he’s an Aussie ffs.
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I remember some criticism of the director of The Patriot as well. It was very much anti-British, but it was quite the whitewash of U.S. history as well.
 
F

F1fan

Veteran Member
SomeRandom said:
Ahh okay. Fair enough then. Maybe the owner told him to dispose of the flags. I’m sure there’s a reasonable explanation.
If the owner didn’t give him permission, then sure the guy is guilty of touching another person’s property. Jerk move.
I still don’t really care since unlike Americans I don’t worship my own flag. (Just an observation, I mean no offence.)
It makes me patriotic don’t get me wrong. But I won’t like press charges if someone chucks away my own flag. I’d tell them off then simply buy another
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I don't think the flags themselves are the issue, rather these were placed by one or more people to commemorate an event where many citizens lost their lives. To my mind the guy's offense was a protest against showing solidarity against the terrorist acts. The flags were none of his business, and I'm curious what motivated him.
 
PureX

PureX

Veteran Member
The Hammer said:
I don't see that as a problem? Awareness has to start somewhere.

Edit: Everything we do is based on symbolism.
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One of my favorite examples of more recent times ...

Lee-statue-defaced-copy.jpg
 
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SomeRandom

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The Hammer said:
A lot of the little flags we buy for that purpose, aren't "true" flags, not the right number if stars or stripes typically. They do this in main street USA at Disneyland too, that way not all the flags there have to follow the flag Code.

Behind The Magic: Why Disney Doesn't Follow U.S. Flag Code on Main Street USA. — Save at Walt Disney World
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Lol fake flags.
F1fan said:
I don't think the flags themselves are the issue, rather these were placed by one or more people to commemorate an event where many citizens lost their lives. To my mind the guy's offense was a protest against showing solidarity against the terrorist acts. The flags were none of his business, and I'm curious what motivated him.
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Ok then I can agree what the guy did was wrong
 
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