Missouri conservative group confronts student senator as he takes down and throws away flags from 9/

SomeRandom · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
A thread about flags for a 9/11 memorial being thrown away turns into flag bashing and America bashing. Nice, RF. Just nice. Death to America, right?

I’m not trying to bash anyone. Criticism is healthy and a country should accept it on the chin, lest it grows too big a hubris. I’ll happily bash my own country. Because I love living here.
I mean if any country claims perfection, is that not an affront to the concept of a promised heaven in the afterlife (depending on one’s religious inclinations, I suppose.)

Stevicus · Sep 12, 2021

RestlessSoul said:
People have been killing and dying for flags since the middle ages. The flags all stand for the same thing, and always have; the interests of the rich and powerful, for whom the poor are recruited to die.

Yes, although when you grow up with scenes like this, it tends to create a certain "mystique" about it all.

The movie itself, at least from the standpoint of historical accuracy, was a complete shambles, but somehow you forget all that in the drama.

Stevicus · Sep 12, 2021

9-10ths_Penguin said:
Then I trust that you could identify at least a few clauses in the Flag Code that this display violated.

Possibly, I'd have to check. I don't have it memorized.

9-10ths_Penguin · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
A thread about flags for a 9/11 memorial being thrown away turns into flag bashing and America bashing. Nice, RF. Just nice. Death to America, right?

You're surprised that a discussion about flags being removed from a display would talk about the reasons why the flags were removed?

Shaul · Sep 12, 2021

Anyone who despises the flag should go find one they like better. And good riddance.

pearl · Sep 12, 2021

RestlessSoul said:
There's a Flag Code? Blimey...

Yes there is. We replace our flag on the pole every year as NE weather tends to shred them. There is a veteran's association that will take them and properly retire them.

Saint Frankenstein · Sep 12, 2021

SomeRandom said:
I’m not trying to bash anyone. Criticism is healthy and a country should accept it on the chin, lest it grows too big a hubris. I’ll happily bash my own country. Because I love living here.
I mean if any country claims perfection, is that not an affront to the concept of a promised heaven in the afterlife (depending on one’s religious inclinations, I suppose.)

Your country currently has you all imprisoned with the military patrolling the street lest someone have the gall to want to take a walk. Yeah, you have a lot you can criticize your country on right now!

SomeRandom · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
Your country currently has you all imprisoned with the military patrolling the street lest someone have the gall to want to take a walk. Yeah, you have a lot you can criticize your country on right now!

What are you talking about? I went to the shops today. No military stopped me.
Are you perhaps talking about the states which have like hundreds if not thousands of cases of COVID (and only after destructive protesting) had some military presence for a while in the aftermath?
Because if memory serves that has happened in the US after various riots through the years. I still would never in a million years claim that your military impedes the rights of US citizens.

Shaul · Sep 12, 2021

Meanwhile real Americans were using an American flag to save a falling cat.

https://mobile.twitter.com/hashtag/HardRockCat?src=hashtag_click

Debater Slayer · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
Your country currently has you all imprisoned with the military patrolling the street lest someone have the gall to want to take a walk. Yeah, you have a lot you can criticize your country on right now!

Australia is faring much better than the U.S. in multiple measures of quality of life. Criticizing it for having a lockdown per medical advice merely underlines a problematic and anti-scientific mindset that has contributed to the deteriorating situation the U.S. is in right now.

Saint Frankenstein · Sep 12, 2021

SomeRandom said:
What are you talking about? I went to the shops today. No military stopped me.
Are you perhaps talking about the states which have like hundreds if not thousands of cases of COVID (and only after destructive protesting) which had some military presence for a while in the aftermath?
Because if memory serves that has happened in the US after various riots through the years. I still would never in a million years claim that your military impedes the rights of US citizens.

In Sydney, at least. I don't know if they're still there:
Mayor says Berejiklian has 'lost complete control' of outbreak as hundreds of troops set to arrive in Sydney

Saint Frankenstein · Sep 12, 2021

Debater Slayer said:
Australia is faring much better than the U.S. in multiple measures of quality of life. Criticizing it for having a lockdown per medical advice merely underlines a problematic and anti-scientific mindset that has contributed to the deteriorating situation the U.S. is in right now.

People aren't buying this crap anymore, dude. The insults, character assassination, censorship, threats, etc. haven't worked.

SomeRandom · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
In Sydney, at least. I don't know if they're still there:
Mayor says Berejiklian has 'lost complete control' of outbreak as hundreds of troops set to arrive in Sydney

Ahh yeah Sydney is a shambles, afraid to say. I almost feel bad for the leader of that state (NSW). Almost. I mean it’s not her fault that the virus is ravaging the state. Our government completely bungled the vaccine rollout. Bunch of morons that they are. My fam are desperately trying to move up here since they recently just bought a house. But the border had to be closed. The delta variant is a right expletive. We are still fairing better than some countries. Though I think that’s in part due to isolation more than anything else. Also having a built in universal healthcare system probably helped.

Debater Slayer · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:

I know you don't like the answer, but facts don't change based on what we like. It may be useful to focus on those instead of rushing to defend a flag by trying to portray other countries as bad.

Also, I thought the right was all about "freedom of speech" and the right to offend others. What gives? Does that no longer apply when someone disrespects a flag?

RestlessSoul · Sep 12, 2021

Stevicus said:
Yes, although when you grow up with scenes like this, it tends to create a certain "mystique" about it all.

The movie itself, at least from the standpoint of historical accuracy, was a complete shambles, but somehow you forget all that in the drama.

Good movie, but the anti Brit bias was a bit over the top imo. Add that to the one sided anti English sentiment of Braveheart, and I could easily develop a chip on my shoulder against Mel Gibson.

He’s not even a Yank or Jock he’s an Aussie ffs.

9-10ths_Penguin · Sep 12, 2021

Stevicus said:
Possibly, I'd have to check. I don't have it memorized.

Bits that I recall:

- the flag is not to be displayed at a lower height than other flags.
- the flag is not to be displayed between dusk and dawn unless illuminated (they put them out at 8:15 pm to leave them until the ceremony the next morning).
- the flag or its image is not to be displayed on any disposable items.
- IIRC, there are rules about the arrangement of flag displays that would effectively prohibit a big grid of American flags (though I may be wrong on that point).

Not in the Flag Code, but something that matters to me: this was all a literally partisan display by the campus Republican student chapter. If this was a flag I revered, that's what I'd find especially offensive... though not as much as using a 9/11 memorial as a political event.

(Even though the idea of Republicans using a 9/11 memorial to their own political ends is an ironically fitting way to commemorate 9/11)

I think it was jerkish to remove the flags, but it was an inappropriate response to something that was legitimately offensive.

Stevicus · Sep 12, 2021

SomeRandom said:
Interesting. I think WWII kind of did the same for us, in terms of heightening patriotism. WWI moreso arguably, since that is where our “identity was forged” so to speak
But that’s since died away somewhat.
American jingoism does seem rather extreme from the outside looking in, if you don’t mind my saying so

Well, I grew up exposed to both ultra-patriots and anti-war leftists, but I've also seen a more balanced and reasonable views expressed. But it's not really about the actual flags or symbols, as much as it's about the ideas and myths they represent.

It's ironic, since a lot of political debate between left and right in America is somewhat analogous to a religious debate between two sects. An underlying argument which seems evident in many issues is about "what America is." There are patriots on both the left and right, who will say that they love America and even believe in defending America when needed. But their differences lie in their conflicting perceptions about "what America is" and what conditions need to be present to warrant the use of military force in our defense.

RestlessSoul · Sep 12, 2021

Shaul said:
Anyone who despises the flag should go find one they like better. And good riddance.

Debater Slayer · Sep 12, 2021

Saint Frankenstein said:
People aren't buying this crap anymore, dude. The insults, character assassination, censorship, threats, etc. haven't worked.

Which people? The majority of adult populations in multiple countries are now vaccinated, including the U.S. If by "people" you mean a minority who refuse to follow medical advice for the benefit and safety of their respective societies and fellow people, then sure, there are people who aren't "buying into" sound precautions. Thankfully, in a lot of countries, they don't represent the majority.

Anyway, back to the thread topic: I disagree with what the guy did because I think it's disrespectful and because he threw away property that didn't belong to him, but what I'm seeing in some posts in this thread is criticism of his actions not based on these reasons but based on some nebulous and arbitrary notions of what being "American" means or entails. As I said, it seems that some on the right only support the "right to offend" when they're not the ones being offended.

Saint Frankenstein · Sep 12, 2021

Debater Slayer said:
I know you don't like the answer, but facts don't change based on what we like. It may be useful to focus on those instead of rushing to defend a flag by trying to portray other countries as bad.

Also, I thought the right was all about "freedom of speech" and the right to offend others. What gives? Does that no longer apply when someone disrespects a flag?

Legal rights are one thing but I think everyone has a duty to love their country and should be respectful of it. That is good and healthy. The flag isn't about the government, it represents the nation and you're a part of that nation. If you hate your own country that much, you should look for another one. I certainly understand that as I'm often disappointed to be an American, I just think that most other countries have even more to be disappointed about.

Missouri conservative group confronts student senator as he takes down and throws away flags from 9/

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