How does the Epic of Gilgamesh discredit the story of Noah’s flood?

People_Lack_Integrity · Sep 8, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
The claims of certain cultures existing for “1000’s of years”, certainly , after the Flood. Before the Flood? No…it’s fabricated lineages. When it comes to ancestry, we humans always want to go further and further back. It doesn’t take a big stretch of the imagination, to realize that some dishonesty was occurring.

(By Mesopotamian, did you mean Babylon? Because you specifically stated, it ended in 539.BCE. Just wanted to clarify.)

Mesopotamia is a region that contained several civilizations, yes including the Babylonians just for clarity, but their cities actually changed hands from the Sumerians to the Babylonians for example, which is why ancient Mesopotamian history is sort of a combined deal that I listed. It is quite an extraordinary claim to say that all these civilizations prior to the flood did not exist. So basically you are dismissing all of archaeology from around the world, historians, people who have studied in great detail their documents, their history, their calendars. That would indicate a huge conspiracy and one in which all archaeologists around the world, both past and present are participating in. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't seem very likely. So your rather quite dismissal of archaeology and all of these civilizations from around the world...I find to be rather arrogant and woefully dishonest. The Mayans for example, although portrayed as barbaric in movies, were rather advanced when it came to mathematics and actually used that not just to build their pyramids, but on locations that were mathematically significant and aligned with solar and astronomical events. Again, the Chinese have a completely unbroken documented history going back with written parchments all the way back to 7,000BC!!! So you are just going to dismiss all of Chinese history and claim it is fabricated?! I'm sorry, but if you are going to go this route, then there's no point in having a discussion with you further, because you are dismissing actual irrefutable evidence and claiming it "doesn't exist". Your cognitive dissonance is very apparent.

metis · Sep 8, 2021

There is 0 evidence for an actual universal flood, so how does one date something that didn't exist?

What some miss is the actual strength of that narrative in terms of lessons learned. IOW, it's a myth, but it's an important one because of what it teaches from a moral perspective. It also counters the much more widespread and earlier Babylonian polytheistic flood narratives, and at least some theologians believe that it may have been primarily written for that reason.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 8, 2021

People_Lack_Integrity said:
Mesopotamia is a region that contained several civilizations, yes including the Babylonians just for clarity, but their cities actually changed hands from the Sumerians to the Babylonians for example, which is why ancient Mesopotamian history is sort of a combined deal that I listed. It is quite an extraordinary claim to say that all these civilizations prior to the flood did not exist. So basically you are dismissing all of archaeology from around the world, historians, people who have studied in great detail their documents, their history, their calendars. That would indicate a huge conspiracy and one in which all archaeologists around the world, both past and present are participating in. I'm sorry, but that just doesn't seem very likely. So your rather quite dismissal of archaeology and all of these civilizations from around the world...I find to be rather arrogant and woefully dishonest. The Mayans for example, although portrayed as barbaric in movies, were rather advanced when it came to mathematics and actually used that not just to build their pyramids, but on locations that were mathematically significant and aligned with solar and astronomical events. Again, the Chinese have a completely unbroken documented history going back with written parchments all the way back to 7,000BC!!! So you are just going to dismiss all of Chinese history and claim it is fabricated?! I'm sorry, but if you are going to go this route, then there's no point in having a discussion with you further, because you are dismissing actual irrefutable evidence and claiming it "doesn't exist". Your cognitive dissonance is very apparent.

You are making sweeping generalizations….
“All archaeologists around the world”?…. No.
“All of Chinese history”?…. Did I say all? No. You’re not being honest.
And then you end with, “Your cognitive dissonance is very apparent.”

An attempted Ad hom?
Sad. I had hoped for better.
Goodbye. I wish you and yours well.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 8, 2021

metis said:
There is 0 evidence for an actual universal flood, so how does one date something that didn't exist?

Oh, grief! Métis, have you even read the evidences that have been posted?
Here….

Flood Evidences — revised

And some more, here….
How does the Epic of Gilgamesh discredit the story of Noah’s flood?

That book quoted from, by John Garnier, is a fascinating read! I have it.

metis · Sep 8, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
Oh, grief! Métis, have you even read the evidences that have been posted?
Here….

Flood Evidences — revised

And some more, here….
How does the Epic of Gilgamesh discredit the story of Noah’s flood?

That book quoted from, by John Garnier, is a fascinating read! I have it.

Good grief, Hockeycowboy, I'm an anthropologist who not only studied flood narratives but also taught and still teach theology, but not professionally at this time but as a volunteer.

About 2/3 of pre-Jewish societies had flood narratives, and guess what: they lived in areas that had at least occasional flooding. However, these narratives often differed significantly with many being attributed to various deities.

Thus, are we to believe all of them were true, especially since all pre-Jewish cultures were polytheistic with a temporary exception of one dynasty in Egypt?

BTW, the sun deity was the most worshiped in early horticultural societies, and certain select animals were mostly worshiped in hunting & gathering societies, so should we now worship the sun?

joelr · Sep 9, 2021

Xavier Graham SA said:
People and “scholars” claim that because there is the Mesopotamian flood myth, Noah’s flood story is discredited as being original. They say the Epic of Gilgamesh exposes Noah’s flood as being a derivative story.
As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah. The flood event was a truthful event, so it makes sense it was recorded by other peoples and assimilated into their myths.
There are many cultures with flood myths: Noah, India (manu and the fish), flood myth of Hawaii, Aztec, Inca, various North American tribes, Greece, Egypt, and Babylon. These are some of the cultures that have flood myths. For someone who believes that the flood literally happened, it makes sense that it is recorded in other mythologies.

The Israelites came from Cannanite society around 1200BC. There were no Israelites, Yahweh or such before that.
So that apologetic is holding no chance of being real. There are hundreds of flood myths and whatever religion a person believes they just claim that that was the real version and the others were using it to add to their myths? Here is a tip, they are all myths, 100%.
Modern geological science has a 7 point argument why a world flood never happened. If you want to ignore modern science then you simply do not care about what is true.
But that isn't needed, as scholars point out scripture was not writing history:

Religion Identity and the Origins of Ancient Israel

K.L. Sparks (ordained Baptist Pastor, PhD in Hebrew Bible/Ancient Near East)

As a rule, modern scholars do not believe that the Bible's account of early Israel's history provides a wholly accurate portrait of Israel's origins. One reason for this is that the earliest part of Israel's history in Genesis is now regarded as something other than a work of modern history. It's primary author was at best an ancient historian (if a historian at all), who lived long after the events he narrated, and who drew freely from all sources that were not historical (legends and theological stories); he was more concerned with theology than with the modern quest to learn "what actually happened" (Van Seters 1992; Sparks 2002, pp 37-71; Maidman 2003).

As a result, the stories about Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph are better understood as windows into Israelite history than as portraits of Israel's early history. Almost as problematic as an historical source is the book of Exodus. This book tells the story of Israel's long enslavement in Egypt and of it's eventual emancipation; it also narrates the first stages of Israel's migration from Egypt toward Palestine. The trouble with this story, historically speaking, is that the Egyptians seem to have known nothing of these great events in which thousands of Israelite slaves were released from Egypt because of a series of natural (or supernatural( catastrophes - supposedly including the death of every firstborn Egyptian man and beast.

joelr · Sep 9, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
Oh, grief! Métis, have you even read the evidences that have been posted?
Here….

Flood Evidences — revised

And some more, here….
How does the Epic of Gilgamesh discredit the story of Noah’s flood?

That book quoted from, by John Garnier, is a fascinating read! I have it.

terrible sources, Most Christians even call Noah mythology. What is so important about wanting ancient myths to be true? let's try science:

Modern geology and flood geology

Modern geology, its sub-disciplines and other scientific disciplines utilize the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community.] Modern geology relies on a number of established principles, one of the most important of which is Charles Lyell's principle of uniformitarianism. In relation to geological forces it states that the shaping of the Earth has occurred by means of mostly slow-acting forces that can be seen in operation today. By applying these principles, geologists have determined that the Earth is approximately 4.54 billion years old. They study the lithosphere of the Earth to gain information on the history of the planet. Geologists divide Earth's history into eons, eras, periods, epochs, and faunal stages characterized by well-defined breaks in the fossil record (see Geologic time scale). In general, there is a lack of any evidence for any of the above effects proposed by flood geologists and their claims of fossil layering are not taken seriously by scientists.

Erosion
The global flood cannot explain geological formations such as angular unconformities, where sedimentary rocks have been tilted and eroded then more sedimentary layers deposited on top, needing long periods of time for these processes. There is also the time needed for the erosion of valleys in sedimentary rock mountains. In another example, the flood, had it occurred, should also have produced large-scale effects spread throughout the entire world. Erosion should be evenly distributed, yet the levels of erosion in, for example, the Appalachians and the Rocky Mountains differ significantly.[

Geochronology
Geochronology is the science of determining the absolute age of rocks, fossils, and sediments by a variety of techniques. These methods indicate that the Earth as a whole is about 4.54 billion years old, and that the strata that, according to flood geology, were laid down during the Flood some 6,000 years ago, were actually deposited gradually over many millions of years.

Paleontology
If the flood were responsible for fossilization, then all the animals now fossilized must have been living together on the Earth just before the flood. Based on estimates of the number of remains buried in the Karoo fossil formation in Africa, this would correspond to an abnormally high density of vertebrates worldwide, close to 2100 per acre.[84] Creationists argue that evidence for the geological column is fragmentary, and all the complex layers of chalk occurred in the approach to the 150th day of Noah's flood.[114][115] However, the entire geologic column is found in several places, and shows multiple features, including evidence of erosion and burrowing through older layers, which are inexplicable on a short timescale. Carbonate hardgrounds and the fossils associated with them show that the so-called flood sediments include evidence of long hiatuses in deposition that are not consistent with flood dynamics or timing.

Geochemistry[edit]
Proponents of Flood Geology are also unable to account for the alternation between calcite seas and aragonite seas through the Phanerozoic. The cyclical pattern of carbonate hardgrounds, calcitic and aragonitic ooids, and calcite-shelled fauna has apparently been controlled by seafloor spreading rates and the flushing of seawater through hydrothermal vents which changes its Mg/Ca ratio.

Sedimentary rock features
Phil Senter's 2011 article, "The Defeat of Flood Geology by Flood Geology", in the journal Reports of the National Center for Science Education, discusses "sedimentologic and other geologic features that Flood geologists have identified as evidence that particular strata cannot have been deposited during a time when the entire planet was under water ... and distribution of strata that predate the existence of the Ararat mountain chain." These include continental basalts, terrestrial tracks of animals, and marine communities preserving multiple in-situ generations included in the rocks of most or all Phanerozoic periods, and the basalt even in the younger Precambrian rocks. Others, occurring in rocks of several geologic periods, include lake deposits and eolian (wind) deposits. Using their own words, Flood geologists find evidence in every Paleozoic and Mesozoic period, and in every epoch of the Cenozoic period, indicating that a global flood could not have occurred during that interval. A single flood could also not account for such features as unconformities, in which lower rock layers are tilted while higher rock layers were laid down horizontally on top.

Flood geology - Wikipedia

People_Lack_Integrity · Sep 9, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
You are making sweeping generalizations….
“All archaeologists around the world”?…. No.
“All of Chinese history”?…. Did I say all? No. You’re not being honest.
And then you end with, “Your cognitive dissonance is very apparent.”

An attempted Ad hom?
Sad. I had hoped for better.
Goodbye. I wish you and yours well.

Actually, I said all of "Archaeology" around the world, not (all Archaeologists), which is a very fine distinction since every single field has detractors that don't agree, but are almost always minority in opinion. When I refer to "All of Archaeology", I am referring to the consensus that these dates are correct and the findings from Archaeologists around the world independently that studied the Egyptians, Greeks, Chinese, Babylonians, Mayans, etc...over the past few centuries and have come to a consensus on the translations, the dates, etc. My point is this is a vast field with a lot of different people involved from different countries, different backgrounds, different religions, etc....yet there isn't any challenge within the field itself, that these dates aren't correct, or that the these civilizations didn't exist prior to the "flood date". You can find detractors within science for example, within the field of biology for example, who doubt evolutionary theory, but they are a small minority. Same goes within Archaeology, except this field has even fewer mainly because the calendars of these civilizations are easily understandable since they used mathematics and astronomy to calculate them. So any dissenting opinion within Archaeology about these dates worldwide, of all these different civilizations, that all show dates older than 2,500 years ago....doesn't even register as a minority at all. But here you are casually dismissing the hundreds of Archaeologists who spent their lives over the past couple hundred years making discoveries, deciphering ancient writings, digging up artifacts, tablets, parchments and using sophisticated modern tools to analyze them. As for Chinese history, yes, I guess you do accept Chinese history starting 4,500 years ago, but everything else...I guess the Chinese just made up and all the archaeologists who've studied their history going back to 7,000BC, I guess are making it up as well. I guess all archaeologists from around the world are making all this history up of all these different civilizations that existed both before and after the flood. Sure...sounds plausible that there's a giant conspiracy....for no good reason I guess other than to suppress the "truth of the bible"....right. As far as me saying you are showing cognitive dissonance? That's not an insult, but if you take it that way, then you either don't understand the word or are overly sensitive. Anyone can experience cognitive dissonance when it comes to subjects they are passionate about. I've many a time pointed out to non-believers, their own cognitive dissonance when they were engaged in it. It's not an insult, it's a description of how they are behaving. In this case, you outright rejected evidence that your position is wrong, without even investigating or providing a reason as to why all these Archaeologists are wrong. That is a classic example of cognitive dissonance. If you presented me with solid evidence I was wrong and I outright rejected it without providing a proper rebuttal or evidence against it...then I would also be showing cognitive dissonance. There, I hope you learned what that means now.

I guess this is about what I expected. A non-response to the issue and then a fake "I'm now a victim" ploy, to try and dismiss the real issue at hand. But I guess when you dismiss an entire field that's been in practice for hundreds of years and has a mountain of evidence, hundreds of people involved, that reached a consensus that disagrees with your religious pre-disposition....then I can understand why you would have to resort to playing a victim. Please realize that you are not perfect, your knowledge is not perfect, your understanding of the world is not perfect and that you still will never learn enough. That's why I'm always constantly learning, because I know I could be wrong, but will only be convinced by evidence. For you as of now, no amount of evidence will convince you, that you are wrong and that's why you must necessarily ignore evidence contrary to your position.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 9, 2021

People_Lack_Integrity said:
Actually, I said all of "Archaeology" around the world, not (all Archaeologists)

No, you didn’t. You said:

People_Lack_Integrity said:
all archaeologists around the world,

Like I said, “sweeping generalizations.”
If you won’t even acknowledge what you yourself wrote, this discussion will be going nowhere.

Brian2 · Sep 9, 2021

People_Lack_Integrity said:
No he's not right at all and you both have it backwards. A worldwide flood is an extraordinary claim and one in which should have a great deal of evidence to support it. Yet there isn't and it is known what to look for. For example, geologists can easily identify flood layers in the earth, because there is heavy mixing of rock, sediment, debris...flood layers are very obvious. They have identified these in floods that settled after only a few years, as well as matched them up with historical floods. So, if there was a worldwide flood, there should be a worldwide flood layer at the same location in the geologic column. Yet not only is there not, but there are areas with no flood layers.

But if you are looking for evidence against an event that has no evidence for it to begin with...well it's hard to disprove a negative, but in this case you can, because it's not just about the missing evidence, it's about historical civilizations that existed both before and after the flood, went on existing as if nothing happened and were not wiped out. According to most creationists and biblical historians, the flood would have happened around 4500 years ago, around 2500 BC. Archaeologists have tracked and documented the history of the Sumerians from 3300BC-1900BC, meaning they survived the flood. The Egyptians from from about 3,150BC-30BC, Mesopotamians from 6,500-539BC, Ancient Greek 2,700BC-500BC, Mayans 2,600BC-900AD, Norte Chico Civilization 3,000BC-1,800BC, Ancient Chinese 7,000BC-Unbroken all the way through several dynasties to the present! Australian Aboriginals 50,000BC-Present unbroken. There are even more that I didn't list here, but the point is, here you have a list of civilizations that we have the histories of, through archaeology by finding not just artifacts from them, but their structures, their parchments, their stone tablets inscribed, some with dated calendars like the Mayans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, who tracked their years using basic astronomy and math, who's calendars are easily understood and verified. None of these civilizations were wiped out at the time of the flood. None of them. Ancient Chinese actually has a flood story as well, except it's actually real and happened about 4,000 years ago when the Yellow river broke it's banks and destroyed pretty much all the Yao territories...but again, that was a local flood, not worldwide and did not wipe out Ancient Chinese civilization. Chinese culture is probably one of the most well documented, as they were writing and reading, recording history, long before anyone else and again...did not suddenly stop 4500 years ago. Instead their great civilization and history went on, unbroken, all the way until the present.

So if you want evidence that the worldwide flood did not happen...that's it right there, dozens of ancient civilizations that were not wiped out, that went on recording history and make no mention of a global flood. So...for you and Hockeycowboy...what's you answer to these archaeological facts?

It appears that the flood would have been a large local flood imo.

Hockeycowboy · Sep 9, 2021

People_Lack_Integrity said:
Actually, I said all of "Archaeology" around the world, not (all Archaeologists), which is a very fine distinction since every single field has detractors that don't agree, but are almost always minority in opinion. When I refer to "All of Archaeology", I am referring to the consensus that these dates are correct and the findings from Archaeologists around the world independently that studied the Egyptians, Greeks, Chinese, Babylonians, Mayans, etc...over the past few centuries and have come to a consensus on the translations, the dates, etc. My point is this is a vast field with a lot of different people involved from different countries, different backgrounds, different religions, etc....yet there isn't any challenge within the field itself, that these dates aren't correct, or that the these civilizations didn't exist prior to the "flood date". You can find detractors within science for example, within the field of biology for example, who doubt evolutionary theory, but they are a small minority. Same goes within Archaeology, except this field has even fewer mainly because the calendars of these civilizations are easily understandable since they used mathematics and astronomy to calculate them. So any dissenting opinion within Archaeology about these dates worldwide, of all these different civilizations, that all show dates older than 2,500 years ago....doesn't even register as a minority at all. But here you are casually dismissing the hundreds of Archaeologists who spent their lives over the past couple hundred years making discoveries, deciphering ancient writings, digging up artifacts, tablets, parchments and using sophisticated modern tools to analyze them. As for Chinese history, yes, I guess you do accept Chinese history starting 4,500 years ago, but everything else...I guess the Chinese just made up and all the archaeologists who've studied their history going back to 7,000BC, I guess are making it up as well. I guess all archaeologists from around the world are making all this history up of all these different civilizations that existed both before and after the flood. Sure...sounds plausible that there's a giant conspiracy....for no good reason I guess other than to suppress the "truth of the bible"....right. As far as me saying you are showing cognitive dissonance? That's not an insult, but if you take it that way, then you either don't understand the word or are overly sensitive. Anyone can experience cognitive dissonance when it comes to subjects they are passionate about. I've many a time pointed out to non-believers, their own cognitive dissonance when they were engaged in it. It's not an insult, it's a description of how they are behaving. In this case, you outright rejected evidence that your position is wrong, without even investigating or providing a reason as to why all these Archaeologists are wrong. That is a classic example of cognitive dissonance. If you presented me with solid evidence I was wrong and I outright rejected it without providing a proper rebuttal or evidence against it...then I would also be showing cognitive dissonance. There, I hope you learned what that means now.

I guess this is about what I expected. A non-response to the issue and then a fake "I'm now a victim" ploy, to try and dismiss the real issue at hand. But I guess when you dismiss an entire field that's been in practice for hundreds of years and has a mountain of evidence, hundreds of people involved, that reached a consensus that disagrees with your religious pre-disposition....then I can understand why you would have to resort to playing a victim. Please realize that you are not perfect, your knowledge is not perfect, your understanding of the world is not perfect and that you still will never learn enough. That's why I'm always constantly learning, because I know I could be wrong, but will only be convinced by evidence. For you as of now, no amount of evidence will convince you, that you are wrong and that's why you must necessarily ignore evidence contrary to your position.

Interesting that you didn’t address any of the evidences I posited.

My “predisposition”?

What are most of the mainstream science disciplines unfortunately predisposed toward?

What assumption do most start with? (Newton didn’t; Boyle didn’t; Kepler didn’t; Hugh Ross doesn’t; etc. you want an archaeologist? Frederick Kenyon didn’t.) Once you can honestly answer that, you’re on your way to enlightenment.

(BTW, I’m not a YEC. Not that it has any bearing in archaeology, but I just wanted to clarify that.)

Have a good day.

CG Didymus · Sep 9, 2021

Xavier Graham SA said:
When it comes to science directly opposing my literal beliefs, this is how I handle it. For example, if geologists say they see no evidence of a global flood occurring a few thousand years ago, what do I do? I assume the science is wrong. Science is always updating, right? What we know now is way more than what we knew 100 years ago. In the same way, what we know now will be nothing compared to what we’ll know in a hundred years. How many things will we find out we’ve been doing completely wrong when it comes to science?
That said, I don’t completely disregard what the science says, just my faith will take precedent over what a scientist can present me.
This OP I think is an example of me considering science while retaining my literalistic beliefs.
A proposed solution for Young Earth Creationism

How literally do you take the Bible stories? Were the people and the animals on the Ark the only survivors? Plus, you are the first Baha'i I've ever heard of that says they take the Bible literally. I thought Baha'is are taught that some stories in the Bible are meant to be taken allegorically?

Hockeycowboy · Sep 9, 2021

joelr said:
terrible sources, Most Christians even call Noah mythology. What is so important about wanting ancient myths to be true? let's try science:

Modern geology and flood geology

Modern geology, its sub-disciplines and other scientific disciplines utilize the scientific method to analyze the geology of the earth. The key tenets of flood geology are refuted by scientific analysis and do not have any standing in the scientific community.] Modern geology relies on a number of established principles, one of the most important of which is Charles Lyell's principle of uniformitarianism. In relation to geological forces it states that the shaping of the Earth has occurred by means of mostly slow-acting forces that can be seen in operation today. By applying these principles, geologists have determined that the Earth is approximately 4.54 billion years old. They study the lithosphere of the Earth to gain information on the history of the planet. Geologists divide Earth's history into eons, eras, periods, epochs, and faunal stages characterized by well-defined breaks in the fossil record (see Geologic time scale). In general, there is a lack of any evidence for any of the above effects proposed by flood geologists and their claims of fossil layering are not taken seriously by scientists.

Erosion
The global flood cannot explain geological formations such as angular unconformities, where sedimentary rocks have been tilted and eroded then more sedimentary layers deposited on top, needing long periods of time for these processes. There is also the time needed for the erosion of valleys in sedimentary rock mountains. In another example, the flood, had it occurred, should also have produced large-scale effects spread throughout the entire world. Erosion should be evenly distributed, yet the levels of erosion in, for example, the Appalachians and the Rocky Mountains differ significantly.[

Geochronology
Geochronology is the science of determining the absolute age of rocks, fossils, and sediments by a variety of techniques. These methods indicate that the Earth as a whole is about 4.54 billion years old, and that the strata that, according to flood geology, were laid down during the Flood some 6,000 years ago, were actually deposited gradually over many millions of years.

Paleontology
If the flood were responsible for fossilization, then all the animals now fossilized must have been living together on the Earth just before the flood. Based on estimates of the number of remains buried in the Karoo fossil formation in Africa, this would correspond to an abnormally high density of vertebrates worldwide, close to 2100 per acre.[84] Creationists argue that evidence for the geological column is fragmentary, and all the complex layers of chalk occurred in the approach to the 150th day of Noah's flood.[114][115] However, the entire geologic column is found in several places, and shows multiple features, including evidence of erosion and burrowing through older layers, which are inexplicable on a short timescale. Carbonate hardgrounds and the fossils associated with them show that the so-called flood sediments include evidence of long hiatuses in deposition that are not consistent with flood dynamics or timing.

Geochemistry[edit]
Proponents of Flood Geology are also unable to account for the alternation between calcite seas and aragonite seas through the Phanerozoic. The cyclical pattern of carbonate hardgrounds, calcitic and aragonitic ooids, and calcite-shelled fauna has apparently been controlled by seafloor spreading rates and the flushing of seawater through hydrothermal vents which changes its Mg/Ca ratio.

Sedimentary rock features
Phil Senter's 2011 article, "The Defeat of Flood Geology by Flood Geology", in the journal Reports of the National Center for Science Education, discusses "sedimentologic and other geologic features that Flood geologists have identified as evidence that particular strata cannot have been deposited during a time when the entire planet was under water ... and distribution of strata that predate the existence of the Ararat mountain chain." These include continental basalts, terrestrial tracks of animals, and marine communities preserving multiple in-situ generations included in the rocks of most or all Phanerozoic periods, and the basalt even in the younger Precambrian rocks. Others, occurring in rocks of several geologic periods, include lake deposits and eolian (wind) deposits. Using their own words, Flood geologists find evidence in every Paleozoic and Mesozoic period, and in every epoch of the Cenozoic period, indicating that a global flood could not have occurred during that interval. A single flood could also not account for such features as unconformities, in which lower rock layers are tilted while higher rock layers were laid down horizontally on top.

Flood geology - Wikipedia

Lol! I hope those following this thread, will see once again, how mainstream science has somehow wedded / merged the YEC concept with the Global Flood belief. So by discrediting YEC (easy to do), it *automatically* discredits the other. That’s simply not honest, from my POV

Joelr ,Everything you posted, only discredits a Young Earth. Do you realize that? And I agree!

You have just destroyed a straw man…. I believe the claims that our Earth is old!

When you can present fitting responses addressing the evidences I posted, and you’re willing to discuss it reasonably and amiably, we can continue.

If not, that’s fine.
Take care.

an anarchist · Sep 9, 2021

CG Didymus said:
Plus, you are the first Baha'i I've ever heard of that says they take the Bible literally.

I’ve only just this week begun identifying as Baha’i, there’s still plenty more for me to learn about the faith.
I take the Bible 100% literally, perhaps other Baha’is take it metaphorically. Perhaps the stories of the Bible could be both literal and metaphorical

CG Didymus · Sep 9, 2021

Xavier Graham SA said:
I’ve only just this week begun identifying as Baha’i, there’s still plenty more for me to learn about the faith.
I take the Bible 100% literally, perhaps other Baha’is take it metaphorically. Perhaps the stories of the Bible could be both literal and metaphorical

Well that explain it. Thanks. 'Cause I don't think the Baha'i Faith teaches it as literal. So, if symbolic, the important thing would be "Don't mess with God. Obey him and you'll be alright. Do evil and God will destroy you."

What I disagree with is... I think it was taught and written as being literally true. Which, for me, would have much more meaning if God actually did destroy the world except for Noah and the people and animals on the ark. But, I don't believe it really happened. So I do agree with those Baha'is that say it didn't really happen, but my take on it is that all those ancient people all had their creation stories and flood stories. I think the Hopi Indians have the world being destroyed three times. So maybe borrowed, but, either way, they took it and made it their own. And all of the stories could easily have been based on a true catastrophic flood. But floods still happen. So God put the rainbow in the sky to remind us he won't flood the whole world... just parts of it?

Also, I do enjoy watching the Christian shows that go through all the geological and fossil things that support the idea that there was a world wide flood. It's just so much water. Anyway, thanks.

Truthseeker · Sep 10, 2021

CG Didymus said:
Well that explain it. Thanks. 'Cause I don't think the Baha'i Faith teaches it as literal. So, if symbolic, the important thing would be "Don't mess with God. Obey him and you'll be alright. Do evil and God will destroy you."

What I disagree with is... I think it was taught and written as being literally true. Which, for me, would have much more meaning if God actually did destroy the world except for Noah and the people and animals on the ark. But, I don't believe it really happened. So I do agree with those Baha'is that say it didn't really happen, but my take on it is that all those ancient people all had their creation stories and flood stories. I think the Hopi Indians have the world being destroyed three times. So maybe borrowed, but, either way, they took it and made it their own. And all of the stories could easily have been based on a true catastrophic flood. But floods still happen. So God put the rainbow in the sky to remind us he won't flood the whole world... just parts of it?

Also, I do enjoy watching the Christian shows that go through all the geological and fossil things that support the idea that there was a world wide flood. It's just so much water. Anyway, thanks.

Over the millennia, the legend of a great deluge has endured in the biblical story of Noah and in such Middle Eastern myths as the epic of Gilgamesh. Now two distinguished geophysicists have discovered a catastrophic event that changed history, a gigantic flood 7,600 years ago in what is today the Black Sea.
Using sound waves and coring devices to probe the sea floor, William Ryan and Walter Pitman revealed clear evidence that this inland body of water had once been a vast freshwater lake lying hundreds of feet below the level of the world's rising oceans. Sophisticated dating techniques confirmed that 7,600 years ago the mounting seas had burst through the narrow Bosporus valley, and the salt water of the Mediterranean had poured into the lake with unimaginable force, racing over beaches and up rivers, destroying or chasing all life before it. The rim of the lake, which had served as an oasis, a Garden of Eden for farms and villages in a vast region of semi-desert, became a sea of death. The people fled, dispersing their languages, genes, and memories.

Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About The Event That Changed History: Ryan, William, Pitman, Walter: 9780684859200: Amazon.com: Books

There was no ark, but there was a flood that began the legend. It did not cover the world, but it changed the world at that time. The Ark I see as a symbol of safety from spiritual drowning.

Indeed God hath created everywhere around this Gate oceans of divine elixir, tinged crimson with the essence of existence and vitalized through the animating power of the desired fruit; and for them God hath provided Arks of ruby, tender, crimson-colored, wherein none shall sail but the people of Bahá, by the leave of God, the Most Exalted; and verily He is the All-Glorious, the All-Wise.
(Selections from the Writings of the Báb)

Bless, O my God, those of the followers of the Bayán as have been numbered with the people of Bahá, who have entered within the Crimson Ark in Thy Name, the Most Exalted, the Most High. Thy might, verily, is equal to all things.
(Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh)

Once again We exhort all believers to observe justice and fairness and to show forth love and contentment. They are indeed the people of Bahá, the companions of the Crimson Ark. Upon them be the peace of God, the Lord of all Names, the Creator of the heavens.
(Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh)

We have admonished Our loved ones to fear God, a fear which is the fountain-head of all goodly deeds and virtues. It is the commander of the hosts of justice in the city of Bahá. Happy the man that hath entered the shadow of its luminous standard, and laid fast hold thereon. He, verily, is of the Companions of the Crimson Ark, which hath been mentioned in the Qayyúm-i-Asmá.
(Epistle to the Son of the Wolf)

(The Qayyum-i-Asma includes the selection from the Bab's Writings above.)

O Shaykh! Seek thou the shore of the Most Great Ocean, and enter, then, the Crimson Ark which God hath ordained in the Qayyúm-i-Asmá for the people of Bahá. Verily, it passeth over land and sea.
(Epistle to the Son of the Wolf)

Brian2 · Sep 10, 2021

Truthseeker9 said:
Over the millennia, the legend of a great deluge has endured in the biblical story of Noah and in such Middle Eastern myths as the epic of Gilgamesh. Now two distinguished geophysicists have discovered a catastrophic event that changed history, a gigantic flood 7,600 years ago in what is today the Black Sea.
Using sound waves and coring devices to probe the sea floor, William Ryan and Walter Pitman revealed clear evidence that this inland body of water had once been a vast freshwater lake lying hundreds of feet below the level of the world's rising oceans. Sophisticated dating techniques confirmed that 7,600 years ago the mounting seas had burst through the narrow Bosporus valley, and the salt water of the Mediterranean had poured into the lake with unimaginable force, racing over beaches and up rivers, destroying or chasing all life before it. The rim of the lake, which had served as an oasis, a Garden of Eden for farms and villages in a vast region of semi-desert, became a sea of death. The people fled, dispersing their languages, genes, and memories.

Noah's Flood: The New Scientific Discoveries About The Event That Changed History: Ryan, William, Pitman, Walter: 9780684859200: Amazon.com: Books

There was no ark, but there was a flood that began the legend. It did not cover the world, but it changed the world at that time. The Ark I see as a symbol of safety from spiritual drowning.

Indeed God hath created everywhere around this Gate oceans of divine elixir, tinged crimson with the essence of existence and vitalized through the animating power of the desired fruit; and for them God hath provided Arks of ruby, tender, crimson-colored, wherein none shall sail but the people of Bahá, by the leave of God, the Most Exalted; and verily He is the All-Glorious, the All-Wise.
(Selections from the Writings of the Báb)

Bless, O my God, those of the followers of the Bayán as have been numbered with the people of Bahá, who have entered within the Crimson Ark in Thy Name, the Most Exalted, the Most High. Thy might, verily, is equal to all things.
(Prayers and Meditations by Bahá’u’lláh)

Once again We exhort all believers to observe justice and fairness and to show forth love and contentment. They are indeed the people of Bahá, the companions of the Crimson Ark. Upon them be the peace of God, the Lord of all Names, the Creator of the heavens.
(Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh)

We have admonished Our loved ones to fear God, a fear which is the fountain-head of all goodly deeds and virtues. It is the commander of the hosts of justice in the city of Bahá. Happy the man that hath entered the shadow of its luminous standard, and laid fast hold thereon. He, verily, is of the Companions of the Crimson Ark, which hath been mentioned in the Qayyúm-i-Asmá.
(Epistle to the Son of the Wolf)

(The Qayyum-i-Asma includes the selection from the Bab's Writings above.)

O Shaykh! Seek thou the shore of the Most Great Ocean, and enter, then, the Crimson Ark which God hath ordained in the Qayyúm-i-Asmá for the people of Bahá. Verily, it passeth over land and sea.
(Epistle to the Son of the Wolf)

The evidence of a large local flood 7600 years ago that came through the Bosporus has been challenged by other researchers but it could have been the flood in the Bible.
Why do you think the Ark was not real?

joelr · Sep 10, 2021

Hockeycowboy said:
Lol! I hope those following this thread, will see once again, how mainstream science has somehow wedded / merged the YEC concept with the Global Flood belief. So by discrediting YEC (easy to do), it *automatically* discredits the other. That’s simply not honest, from my POV

Joelr ,Everything you posted, only discredits a Young Earth. Do you realize that? And I agree!

You have just destroyed a straw man…. I believe the claims that our Earth is old!

Yeah no, that science demonstrates there was no global flood.
If/when you actually read the evidence most of it covers millions of years of data.

Hockeycowboy said:
When you can present fitting responses addressing the evidences I posted, and you’re willing to discuss it reasonably and amiably, we can continue.

If not, that’s fine.
Take care.

Wow that's embarrassing for you. You posted a thread which on post #600 of that same thread I debunked all the nonsense. As well as the post 601, both posts not only debunked the crank but were unchallenged. But you gave this as if it's great evidence for a flood?
Maybe you should have read the entire thread. That way you could have discussed it reasonably and amiably and your response would have been fitting.

Subduction Zone · Sep 10, 2021

Xavier Graham SA said:
People and “scholars” claim that because there is the Mesopotamian flood myth, Noah’s flood story is discredited as being original. They say the Epic of Gilgamesh exposes Noah’s flood as being a derivative story.
As a creationist and biblical literalist, the existence of the Epic of Gilgamesh makes perfect sense. The people who created the myth of Gilgamesh were descendants of Noah. The flood event was a truthful event, so it makes sense it was recorded by other peoples and assimilated into their myths.
There are many cultures with flood myths: Noah, India (manu and the fish), flood myth of Hawaii, Aztec, Inca, various North American tribes, Greece, Egypt, and Babylon. These are some of the cultures that have flood myths. For someone who believes that the flood literally happened, it makes sense that it is recorded in other mythologies.

This is a bit of a red herring since the story was already refuted before the modern rediscovery of the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Truthseeker · Sep 10, 2021

Brian2 said:
Why do you think the Ark was not real?

Because they didn't need one. I read the book, and the Black Seas rose slowly. However over time it covered their settlements and a nascent civilization was scattered to the winds.

How does the Epic of Gilgamesh discredit the story of Noah’s flood?

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